Before you buy any SONOS equipment to achieve a 5.1 setup please consider this: a Denon AVRX2400 AV Amp, Elac CINEMA 5.1 speaker system, all cables professionally installed behind the walls gives you true home cinema with all the surround sound codecs you could ever want with no cables showing for way less than £1000 (see Richer Sound web site for prices). Or spend £1700 on a SONOS setup and get stereo or Dolby Digital only plus you may have to buy a new DVD player to play your UHD DVD’s, a HDMI Switch then deal with lip sync issues etc, etc.
SONOS do speakers, great speakers, but only for music. They are stealing money from people wanting 5.1 for their TV. The system I suggest costs at least £700 less, hides all the wires (what we all want) and sounds much, much better. Go mad, stick a couple of speakers in the ceiling and get real Dolby Atmos for £150 more and still save yourself £550. I have begged SONOS to tell me if they are developing a surround sound product with HDMI and more choice of listening eg DTS, Dolby X etc but they point blank refuse to discuss future products stating they are catering for the “modern listener”. That put me in my place. SONOS remind me of great companies who made world class products like Blackberry, Blockbuster, Compaq and SAAB, just a minute, they all went out of business because they didn’t produce what their customers wanted at a competitive price (no pedants please, I know there were other factors which meant these companies went bust, I am just illustrating a point). Are SONOS going down the same route? Think about it while you are watching your new laser disc.
I would be interested to hear any arguments against my proposed SONOS alternative system.
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As a side note, the 'argument' "They are stealing money from people wanting 5.1 for their TV" does not exactly make for a lively discussion.
Userlevel 3
+4
Forgot to mention that as a plus! You change rooms or houses, you have to pay to get the wires done again? Not with Sonos.
The discussion is averaging one reply an hour so not too bad so far. Forgive my lack of imagination trying to think up a title, Shakespeare I am not... Not sure how your comment contributes to the discussion. If you are not interested then treat it with the contempt you obviously feel it deserves and ignore it.
I think Sonos does music brilliantly and home theatre pretty well, but not brilliantly. But I suspect they know their market, the package works for lots of people, and Sonos won't be following Blackberry or Saab any time soon.
The first part sums it up nicely, and this isn't the first thread where this has been said, and said in more than one thread. For TV, Sonos makes compromises, but for many people what is lost thereby is less than what is gained - by them. Which leads to the second part of the quoted - it is such people that are the target market, and even if there are gaps in the Sonos knowledge of the market, I suggest they know it better than folks writing here.
As I see it, the only problem with the Sonos TV solution is that people need to know a little about what it will not do with reference to the different formats/codecs, before buying it.
My TV (A Sony), and I assume this is the typical experience, will handshake itself as a stereo device. So, when I set my Apple TV audio output to be "best quality available", it will output stereo PCM. This is not for lack of better audio, but because of a handshake problem. The Apple TV's only other output option is "Dolby Digital 5.1", which is what I ultimately selected. Second, the best quality my TV can pass through via HDMI is Dolby Digital Plus (so no DTS or other formats).
Sonos decided to implement their soundbar as a "sink" device. That is, it is the last device in the chain. The TV acts as the switch between media sources. A different implementation might be to have the Sonos connect directly to all your media sources, and then output the video to your TV. Such an implementation might enable better audio formats, but is invariably more difficult to set up.
I, for one, would prefer the latter implementation, where audio is routed directly to the beam, and then the video is forwarded. However, the home theater space is a difficult one, and such implementation is not without compromise. It is a more difficult setup for the customer, for one. Moreover, the audio device when then have to support various pass-through options (my previous audio system, for example, had such an installation, but could not pass through HDR).
Here's hoping that the playbar 2.0 (or, as I think it might be called based on recent naming conventions, the SONOS BAR) --- that is probably in the works --- will solve some of this by offering direct connection to the audio sources.
I think this is a very intelligent and eloquent answer with sums up my main points very succinctly.
I would love the next generation Playbar/Base to have that direct connection to audio sources, I would buy it today in a heartbeat. Here is my last thought on the matter: if you have just spent £700 on one component and 101 days later SONOS bring out the product you really desire, what do you do? Spend another £700 and sell the original purchase at a huge loss? Most people (not the absolute enthusiast) will keep their equipment for 5, 10, 15 years before upgrading. Many people, myself included, will not be prepared to keep spending good money after bad and will loose faith in the brand. My Base goes back this week, if there is no new SONOS product announcement within the next few weeks I will buy a separated system and be lost to SONOS for good as far as AV Speakers go. I am pretty sure I will not be the first or the last who feel like that. I will still have my Play 1s and 3 but a Base/Bar and Sub, their most expensive products, will be off my shopping list.
Just off to Woolworth’s in my SAAB to buy a video.
A question: from a compatibility with formats point of view, does the Sonos solution meet the needs of those that watch movies on TV via streamed sources like Netflix or Amazon? If that is the case, a very large and growing market is well covered.
So it is my fault for not being able to get fibre broadband in my area and my desire to watch DVDs:? A growing market without a doubt Kumar and growing markets expand and keep up with the latest technology. Apple TV is already moving to Dolby Atmos, how long before the major streaming providers follow with Dolby X etc? That is starting to look like a very expensive brick under your TV sometime soon and there is nothing SONOS can do to help you because you are connected with an optical cable...
So it is my fault for not being able to get fibre broadband in my area and my desire to watch DVDs:? A growing market without a doubt Kumar and growing markets expand and keep up with the latest technology. Apple TV is already moving to Dolby Atmos, how long before the major streaming providers follow with Dolby X etc? That is starting to look like a very expensive brick under your TV sometime soon and there is nothing SONOS can do to help you because you are connected with an optical cable...
So because Apple TV puts out an entirely optional audio format, one which is completely backwards compatible with DD 5.1, all of a sudden your Sonos "is starting to look like a very expensive brick under your TV sometime soon"?
What utter nonsense.
The way I see it, it's important to separate opinions from fact. Despite what OP wants to claim, Sonos does have a 5.1 system, as it meets the generally accepted definition of 5 speakers plus a subwoofer. There is no requirement to play certain codecs, or have left and right channels separated by a set distance, to be a 5.1 system. The use of the word 'proper' is completely subjective and shouldn't be looked at as an objective fact.
Like many others have said already though, there are certainly 5.1 systems out there that do more than the Sonos system, If DTS and atmos are important to you, then you shouldn't get a Sonos speaker based system. If you want greater separation of left and right front speakers, or more than 5 speakers, don't get a Sonos speaker based system. Where a Sonos system for TV audio makes sense is where you don't care about those codecs, don't want to have to be concerned about wiring, and want the system to be tightly integrated to a home audio system. That's the market. I don't think it makes sense to look at these soundbars as just for TV or just for music as most people tend to use the room for both.
If I had a room dedicated to watching movies in my home, I wouldn't use Sonos for the job. I might get a connect so that it's a part of the system, but not really much of a concern since I don't plan on listening to music there.
Like many others have said already though, there are certainly 5.1 systems out there that do more than the Sonos system, If DTS and atmos are important to you, then you shouldn't get a Sonos speaker based system. If you want greater separation of left and right front speakers, or more than 5 speakers, don't get a Sonos speaker based system. Where a Sonos system for TV audio makes sense is where you don't care about those codecs, don't want to have to be concerned about wiring, and want the system to be tightly integrated to a home audio system. That's the market. I don't think it makes sense to look at these soundbars as just for TV or just for music as most people tend to use the room for both.
If I had a room dedicated to watching movies in my home, I wouldn't use Sonos for the job. I might get a connect so that it's a part of the system, but not really much of a concern since I don't plan on listening to music there.
I too don't use Sonos in my dedicated to TV/HT room. But I get the results I look for there with just a stereo amp driving two HiFi class speakers for a 2.0 set up with adequately separated front speakers, where even the absence of the centre channel speaker is made up by a very effective phantom centre effect. If I wanted more there, I would go the AVR + more wired speakers route, and not buy Sonos there. But even with just this simple 2.0 set up, I get very effective sound for movies such as Apollo 13 or The Dark Knight etc. And it works just as well for movies like Casablanca that are dialog heavy.
And when I want to get sound with all the bells and whistles, there is a multiplex close to me that has the latest sound magic kit to fully deliver the entire package the director intended, far better than any wired HT could. A movie like Dunkirk merits that effort. IMO.
But on the audio/music front, Sonos can be an uncompromised set up to match any audiophile one(whatever that means); and for those that want to extend the install to their TV in a living room in a clutter free way, Sonos soundbar based systems are an excellent route. I prefer not to use them because I prefer not to have TV in such spaces in the home, but that's just me.
And when I want to get sound with all the bells and whistles, there is a multiplex close to me that has the latest sound magic kit to fully deliver the entire package the director intended, far better than any wired HT could. A movie like Dunkirk merits that effort. IMO.
But on the audio/music front, Sonos can be an uncompromised set up to match any audiophile one(whatever that means); and for those that want to extend the install to their TV in a living room in a clutter free way, Sonos soundbar based systems are an excellent route. I prefer not to use them because I prefer not to have TV in such spaces in the home, but that's just me.
Userlevel 4
+6
As far as vitriol goes, you start off your thread with an inaccurate title that speaks negatively of Sonos. You also accuse them of 'stealing money from people', and that Sonos will be 'just a brick'...but it's not you with the vitriol, it's anyone who points out where your statements are inaccurate. Is that vitriol.
The thread title accuracy is a matter of opinion but seems to have triggered some folks. Sonos defenders should calm down, this thread will die if you stop as it's just a rehash of the thousands of playbar complaint threads already posted. Most of you already agree with most of the points, so you come across as small minded bullies by attacking the original poster over who is more vitriolic. Come on be better.
Even from an music standpoint, I don't really know what 'uncompromised' means. I'm sure I'd be able to get a system that plays music better than Sonos does.
I could argue with that on the basis that you are referring here to a sound signature preference as opposed to better v worse for playing music. But even granting what you suggest, your "better" music system with a Sonos Connect interface to it becomes an uncompromised Sonos system in that audibly, you will get all you seek from your preferred sound signature that would be down to the speakers you chose to employ. While someone else, that prefers the sound signature of a 5 pair + Sub and isn't carried away by the lack of an audiophile brand recognition for Sonos, would say that music from it sounds better than from a audiophile system of similar size.
But this is digressing from the topic of thread.
And a final post on this thread: the title words are as inappropriate as a thread with this title would be - "The Sonos Play 5 speaker does not really do stereo."
Ok, I’ll bite.
I’m far from a Sonos defender but don’t agree with a lot of what you said which was mostly just unsupported opinion.
How is Sonos not a home theater? Not a home theater but a collection of wireless speakers? Huh? They are wireless speakers that have a front end, sub, and rears. That’s a home theater.
Is it as good as a traditional receiver and speakers? No. But most people who buy Sonos know that. It’s not news to them. You aren’t telling them anything they don’t already know. They chose a lifestyle product that is simple and doesn’t have cables all over the place.
I have had the Playbar and the Beam. I’ve said many times that the Playbar in its current version is a travesty that Sonos should be embarrassed to sell. Instead of updating a core product they spent R&D $$ and time on a $400 Bluetooth speaker. How out of touch with your user base can you be? There is a clue to this in the Verge interview with the Sonos CEO. It’s clear it was a vanity project for him to make his mark. He even said there was a lot of opposition to it from within Sonos.
The Beam is nice for what it is but seeing people call it 3.1 is a little much. It’s really clear all the sound is coming from a small area.
However Sonos does in fact make a true 5.1 system and has for some time. It’s called the Amp.
I run mine with Revel Concerta 2 M16 speakers, Sonos sub, and Sonos One SL rears. Sounds great with 5.1 movies.
Lots of subs for less that the Sonos sub sound better and go lower. I could have used one of them but use the Sonos sub because everything is controllable from the app. It also looks good with my Revel gloss black speakers. I made a lifestyle choice.
The phantom center is decent. Dialog is great.
None of this is as good as a traditional receiver speaker setup but I wanted clean and simple while looking good and that’s what I got. It is a home theater surround sound system by any definition.
Userlevel 7
+17
The actual S1 thingy
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1314727/000119312518213468/d403417ds1.htm#toc403417_6
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1314727/000119312518213468/d403417ds1.htm#toc403417_6
Very interesting, Paul, the opening of the kimono for the first time. Did you perhaps intend to post this link in another thread?
Userlevel 7
+17
I just copied it from within this thread:-
https://en.community.sonos.com/music-culture-the-industry-228997/sonos-ipo-6805420/index2.html#post16253284
https://en.community.sonos.com/music-culture-the-industry-228997/sonos-ipo-6805420/index2.html#post16253284
I am not the ombudsman of anything but I am perfectly entitled to ask a question, start a discussion or anything else without being trolled by someone who obviously regards himself as the ombudsman of everything.
His comments on your ombudsman like behavior were never about asking questions or starting discussions, but about trying to dictate rules for participation in the thread. I don't see how there could be much confusion about that.
You obviously know all the answers so I am not clear why you are even looking at this Forum.
The vast majority of jgatie's posts on this forum are to help people troubleshoot issues and such. That seems to be his motivating factor for looking at this forum.
You are a very unpleasant person, give everyone a break and just leave.
Why 'everyone'? No one else seems to have an issue with him on this thread.
Userlevel 7
+17
Why jgatie you have excelled yourself sir , other forums are nowhere near this fun ;););)
Thanks for that info.
I didn't know that the amp allows the addition of more speakers to the setup. This sounds like it makes it an actual 5.1.
In my opinion, without that amp the Sonos system is a 3.1. The playbar or beam are not (and I mean NOT) the same as having 3 individual speakers. They are a really good center speaker.
Even with the amp I'm not sold on Sonos even delivering true 5.1 surround sound but I will go to the Sonos store tomorrow and test that out. I will not be able spend more money on Sonos products until I know for sure I can actually get a more immersive movie watching experience.
A setup like yours may be along the lines of what I need. If I'm understanding correctly, the amp would allow me to add front left and right speakers in addition to the playbar (which o refuse to call anything other than center speakers)
No you can’t use the Playbar with the Amp. The Amp creates a phantom center that isn’t a real center speaker but decent.
Were your rears set to full with the volume turned up? The standard settings for surrounds are way to low.
...removed...not on topic. 😃
Related and happy to split this off but does Sonos’ recent release of its Amp with HDMI ARC and a sub jack change this discussion at all? Obviously you’re buying or using additional speakers at that point but does it change things in terms of Sonos’ ability to deliver 5.1? I wasn’t clear on where the other 3 come from in that setup.
I just purchased one mostly to replace an old Receiver but got curious about things like 5.1 and found this thread.
I’m not super familiar with the underlying technology or audio formats so forgive me if this question is misguided.
Thanks!
I just purchased one mostly to replace an old Receiver but got curious about things like 5.1 and found this thread.
I’m not super familiar with the underlying technology or audio formats so forgive me if this question is misguided.
Thanks!
Userlevel 5
+11
I missed this thread the first time round.
I am considering a Sonos 5.1 system for my Living Room. It will take me a while to get there so any other revelations from me won't be imminent, but I have two fundamental thought directions for arriving at the conclusion that a Sonos system for the Living Room will be my preferred solution.
1. I already have a home theatre system in my Study. I have a Kef 5.1 speakers system being fed by a powerful, if a little dated, receiver. The receiver has plenty of connections for my blu-ray, PS4, PC, TV etc. It also has a tape loop so I have a Connect attached to it. Therefore my study is a Sonos zone, with a line in that can stream all of the inputs I mentioned above. The receiver can decode plenty of different formats and has plenty of setup options to tune the sound if I need to. The TV is in the middle of the wall with the 5 channels pretty well optimised from a position point of view. Therefore, if I need to watch something specific in a home theatre envioronment, I already have the ability.
2. My living room is not a home theatre room. The TV is in the corner and my wife wants aesthetics and convenience of layout to be the foremost considerations. Most TV watched in this room is just TV, not blockbuster action movies. Having the TV in the corner means a soundbar is a sensible option as speaker placement for stereo seperation is not really achievable. Through these forums I am aware of the DTS issues etc but on the whole this is not going to be an issue. I already have two play 1s in the living room, so the surrounds are effectively already in the right room.
In summary? I would tend to agree with the OP that a Sonos theatre system is not perfect. To be frank, I'm not sure any system is. But whilst I would agree that if you want versatile home theatre then don't buy Sonos, I don't currently agree that Sonos 5.1 is not worth considering. I'd also suggest to the OP that the £500 saving from not having a Sonos 5.1 system would be well spent on buying a Connect - that way you get the best from everything - versatile inputs for your home theatre and more options on inputs for your Sonos listening around the home.
I am considering a Sonos 5.1 system for my Living Room. It will take me a while to get there so any other revelations from me won't be imminent, but I have two fundamental thought directions for arriving at the conclusion that a Sonos system for the Living Room will be my preferred solution.
1. I already have a home theatre system in my Study. I have a Kef 5.1 speakers system being fed by a powerful, if a little dated, receiver. The receiver has plenty of connections for my blu-ray, PS4, PC, TV etc. It also has a tape loop so I have a Connect attached to it. Therefore my study is a Sonos zone, with a line in that can stream all of the inputs I mentioned above. The receiver can decode plenty of different formats and has plenty of setup options to tune the sound if I need to. The TV is in the middle of the wall with the 5 channels pretty well optimised from a position point of view. Therefore, if I need to watch something specific in a home theatre envioronment, I already have the ability.
2. My living room is not a home theatre room. The TV is in the corner and my wife wants aesthetics and convenience of layout to be the foremost considerations. Most TV watched in this room is just TV, not blockbuster action movies. Having the TV in the corner means a soundbar is a sensible option as speaker placement for stereo seperation is not really achievable. Through these forums I am aware of the DTS issues etc but on the whole this is not going to be an issue. I already have two play 1s in the living room, so the surrounds are effectively already in the right room.
In summary? I would tend to agree with the OP that a Sonos theatre system is not perfect. To be frank, I'm not sure any system is. But whilst I would agree that if you want versatile home theatre then don't buy Sonos, I don't currently agree that Sonos 5.1 is not worth considering. I'd also suggest to the OP that the £500 saving from not having a Sonos 5.1 system would be well spent on buying a Connect - that way you get the best from everything - versatile inputs for your home theatre and more options on inputs for your Sonos listening around the home.
The second would be that standards are most beneficial when there is only one or few standards out there. Limiting standards means customers have to worry less about whether product X works with product Y. It means manufacturers can keep costs lower if they don't need to have products handle a high volume of standards to be compatible with. As an example consider other standards like USB or Bluetooth. If there were multiple standards out there that did the same thing, this would raise the cost of any product using these standards as well as making life more complicated for the consumer. And yes, competing standard would bring innovation, but these 2 standards seem to be improving without the presence of competition.
Admittedly these aren't terribly strong reasons, particularly the last one. They are reasons though. And of course, Sonos is allowed to have their own reasons that don't have to do with customer satisfaction. There are in business for a reason after all.
These are ridiculous reasons. Firstly cheaper products than Sonos support more codecs. Secondly Sonos only supports Dolby Digital 5.1. A 30 year old standard. Sonos does not even support Dolby Digital 5.1 plus.
So since the introduction of DD 5.1, maybe 3 generations of new audio codecs have been released by Dolby: DD+, Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Atmos. None of which is supported by Sonos. I don't even need to mention DTS, the de facto standard for Blurays/DVDs.
50% of Sonos costs are marketing. Maybe they should spend less money on marketing and a bit more on making great products.
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