LG C9 + Arc + UB820 / Multichannel PCM for DTS Blu-Ray discs

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@Laird M Malamed @Chetiya @AaronT

After all this knowledge and your experience, what would you guys suggest I get in my situation? I have the CX - UB820 - ARC with Surrounds. When I am not watching my Blu Rays I currently use the apps built into the CX for streaming, but I do plan to get an Apple TV one day when it seems support for the CX has ended. If y’all were in my situation, would you buy the Arcana or the DR HDMI 4K? It seems the Arcana can achieve DV and DTS simultaneously and the DR HDMI 4K can not (at least it hasn’t been figured out how to do so easily), although those instances where it would be necessary seem rare. The DR HDMI 4K can convert DTS and that’s currently my biggest want but I’m not sure if getting that setup is very user friendly? I’m good with tech but a lot of this stuff is very new to me.

 

thanks for any help you can provide

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@Laird M Malamed Thank you for breaking your methodologies down with the DR HDMI 4K!

Thank you to everyone else who has contributed in this thread as well.

 

I bought a DR HDMI 4K for the same reason as you all. I was able to follow your path @Laird M Malamed and, indeed, did get it into Multichannel PCM 7.1 from a DTS-HD MA 5.1 track and a DTS:X track (The 7.1 output seems to be all it outputs, but not sure why just yet. My Nintendo Switch also outputs as 7.1 even though it’s only 5.1 capable). The center channel appears to be a bit quiet in comparison to the Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks on the same UHD disc and unsure why...will continue to dig into that.

 

My main issue is that, while I’m able to get Dolby Vision initially, it seems to switch off shortly after the disc starts playing, as the G1 settings won’t stay in DolbyVision Select mode. Have you seen anything like that? I intend to continue playing around with this as I’m dying to watch some of these movies with surround...but also in Dolby Vision.

 

My setup for reference:

LG G1 65”

Panasonic UB9000

Sonos Arc

Sonos Sub (Gen 3)

Sonos One x2 (rears)

R
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So after speaking with Sonos over the phone, and doing diagnostics, they basically are saying that all/most of Blu Ray DTS is a version of DTS called ‘DTS4’, which Sonos don’t actually support.

And the reason I get it when eARC is turned off is because my TV then converts DTS 4 to DTS.

In case this is derailing this thread (which is more about C9 and the lack of DTS at all), I’ve made a new thread about DTS 4 - 

If you’re in a similar situation to me, and having to toggle eARC on/off to get DTS, please feel free to get involved in this thread.

I have the LG C9 TV and it passes-through the supported DTS 5.1 and for other unsupported formats like DTS-X/HQ, I simply switch/use the Mc-LPCM codec on the sending device.

Are you using the UB820 player? I know there’s a way to downgrade DTS-HD to DTS, but it does the same with Dolby too if you turn it on, so you lose Atmos and the like.

I mean, I can also get DTS 5.1 when I turn eARC off, but it’s a pain having to keep switching it every time (and remembering to switch it back on after you’ve watched a movie).

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@Hebassaurus  I believe there are issues with the way Sonos Arc handles lpcm 7.1. On top of that there may also be issues with LG TVs converting everything to 7.1 lpcm even if the input is 5.1 and set to pass through. At this point I’m fairly resigned to the fact that this will never be perfect, and if it ever is, it’ll only be one update away from breaking again. 

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@Laird M Malamed I checked and my 820 is set to have downsampling at 48k, though its also not clear to me whether that only applies to the optical output or if it also affects hdmi.

I used the Advantiv EDID Editor which can be downloaded here: https://ez.analog.com/video/w/documents/750/advantiv-edid-editor

I also looked at the wikipedia page on EDID as a reference to double-check that everything really made sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Display_Identification_Data

I definitely needed to reference the wikipedia page to confirm that the Vendor Specific Data Block that I found was for Dolby Labs and therefore was probably what was providing DV info.

I forgot about the HDFury EDID collection when I was initially testing things out. I did go and check out the readme and files later, and I see that many do specifically say they include DV support, but it wasn’t clear to me which of those I should use from the file names that would provide all of the other correct features and support for the LG TV and Sonos Arc.

Ken_Griffiths

So after speaking with Sonos over the phone, and doing diagnostics, they basically are saying that all/most of Blu Ray DTS is a version of DTS called ‘DTS4’, which Sonos don’t actually support.

And the reason I get it when eARC is turned off is because my TV then converts DTS 4 to DTS.

In case this is derailing this thread (which is more about C9 and the lack of DTS at all), I’ve made a new thread about DTS 4 - 

If you’re in a similar situation to me, and having to toggle eARC on/off to get DTS, please feel free to get involved in this thread.

I have the LG C9 TV and it passes-through the supported DTS 5.1 and for other unsupported formats like DTS-X/HQ, I simply switch/use the Mc-LPCM codec on the sending device.

Are you using the UB820 player? I know there’s a way to downgrade DTS-HD to DTS, but it does the same with Dolby too if you turn it on, so you lose Atmos and the like.

I mean, I can also get DTS 5.1 when I turn eARC off, but it’s a pain having to keep switching it every time (and remembering to switch it back on after you’ve watched a movie).

Ah no (sorry) - I am just using a PlayStation - I don’t have to switch off eARC on the C9 TV however in order to play DTS 5.1 audio - that codec works with eARC either ‘on’ or ‘off’ and I just leave it enabled for that and obviously for the Mc-LPCM (lossless) audio too.

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@Laird M MalamedI checked and my 820 is set to have downsampling at 48k, though its also not clear to me whether that only applies to the optical output or if it also affects hdmi.

I used the Advantiv EDID Editor which can be downloaded here: https://ez.analog.com/video/w/documents/750/advantiv-edid-editor

I also looked at the wikipedia page on EDID as a reference to double-check that everything really made sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Display_Identification_Data

I definitely needed to reference the wikipedia page to confirm that the Vendor Specific Data Block that I found was for Dolby Labs and therefore was probably what was providing DV info.

I forgot about the HDFury EDID collection when I was initially testing things out. I did go and check out the readme and files later, and I see that many do specifically say they include DV support, but it wasn’t clear to me which of those I should use from the file names that would provide all of the other correct features and support for the LG TV and Sonos Arc.

Is there any way that you could upload the file somwehere for other uses to download onto their DR HDMI unit? That wikipedia page may aswell be in chineese for me :)

L
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@Hebassaurus  I believe there are issues with the way Sonos Arc handles lpcm 7.1. On top of that there may also be issues with LG TVs converting everything to 7.1 lpcm even if the input is 5.1 and set to pass through. At this point I’m fairly resigned to the fact that this will never be perfect, and if it ever is, it’ll only be one update away from breaking again. 

 

Yep, the 7.1 issue for everything , i’m pretty sure is LGs end, I have the LG CX and I have had enough responses from various forums to suggest its LG issue, but unfortunately LG are to lazy to acknowledge the problem and fix it.

If anyone from LG reads this, don’t expect me to buy another LG tv in the future, I’m going to be looking at other brands in the future, LG may be good at releasing firmware but actually fixing issues that are widely reported across AV forums, they never seem to be bothered about fixing.

 

B
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Just installed the update on my LG C1 ( v 03.33.11), and I still have the now famous issue with DTS and Stereo PCM on Panasonic UB820.

 

Seems that the last update solved the problem on LG C9 and CXseries but not on C1 and C2 :-( 

 

The good news is that this update show that the issue is on LG side and/or can be fixed by LG… on products that still receive updates 🙂 (considering the fact that a new firmware update for the UB820 will probably never happen, it’s a good news).

 

Just hope that a future new firmware update will solve the issue on LG C1 and C2 series.

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@Chetiya Glad you got it working with the Arcana. I experience the same video input drop on my Panasonic TV for a few seconds too. You’ll get used to it over time.

Thanks for confirming. Yeah it’s a minor gripe, doesn’t impact the actual viewing experience. 
 

I've got cases open with Panasonic and LG around this issue but only getting generic responses thus far. I’m not holding my breath!

K
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For the price of an ARC and an a Arcana your are not far off a Sony HT-A7000 and no issues at all. Hard choice to make..

Ken_Griffiths

For the price of an ARC and an a Arcana your are not far off a Sony HT-A7000 and no issues at all. Hard choice to make..

There’s a comparison of those two soundbars here from rtings.com…

https://www.rtings.com/soundbar/tools/compare/sonos-arc-vs-sony-ht-a7000/13760/27046?usage=8767&threshold=0.10

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That’s fantastic work Laird! I think modifying the TVs EDID to allow it to support a legitimate format makes sense. No idea who is at fault here based on your findings, I’m not sure there are universal standards that aren’t being adhered to or if it’s a vendor by vendor implementation. 
 

Have you got a case open with LG and / or Panasonic where you can update them with your findings? 
 

Also, it might be helpful if you could upload the fixed EDID file somewhere, it would probably help people as they’d only need to copy it their Dr HDMI without having to do any editing. 
 

At this point I’m happy with my Arcana so probably won’t be doing this, although if I can’t find a buyer for my DR HDMI I may try it and sell the Arcana instead as it’s an in demand product. 

L
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Thanks, @Chetiya

 

I do plan to open a case although I know others on this thread have one going. But I am going to do so when I really can pinpoint the issue. My ideal is to find the absolute minimum number of bytes to change. 

 

In terms of uploading a file, I do plan to do that with caution. First, I need to remove my serial number. Second, I want to be sure I have figured it out reliably. Also, this will really only work for a C9 model TV. If someone wants to send me a CX EDID, I am happy to send back a few variants to try. Also, I think the EDID file also is aware of the screen size (55” in my case). So, that too might be a factor with using my EDID vs doing the editing. But anyway, I am happy to share for those willing to experiment. I make no warranties or guarantees!

 

Again, more to follow when I get back to playing around again. I am having fun with this and I am hopeful if I (or others) can truly figure out the problem, LG or Panasonic (or even Sonos) can adjust on their end.

 

My guess is that the issue is actually Panasonic’s. It may be that Panasonic’s routine to downsample DTS to multichannel PCM requires this mapping to know which channels to pass along and tag and which to fold into their output. This might be to better support Atmos and DTS X positional data in the decode. Again, this is my guess. So, when the Panasonic does not see this info, it moves to a safety mode of 2 channel, since every modern device supports that. As reported on this thread, other players (LG, Sony, Oppo) do not have this issue - they correctly output MC PCM and there is no reason to believe the EDID passed by the LG to those is any different than what the Panasonic sees or I extracted.

 

I did end up activating additional “supported” frequencies in the EDID audio section, so I want to play around with that and see if changing those alone (without adding the Speaker block) might be the true root of the issue.

 

(Also, the 1 bit Audio - SACD is definitely not required. I eliminated that last night and everything still works. This is as expected.)

 

 

L
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Ok, I’ve played around a bunch more, and I believe the only issue is that the C9 EDID is missing the speaker data. I tried to add various audio format and sound frequencies which are different between the LG EDID and the one that worked for audio but not Dolby Vision. In the file linked below, the only changes are:

  1. I added the missing speaker data (see screenshot below)
  2. I changed the serial number from my unit to something else (same number of digits). (I doubt this matters to anything.)

 

This is the file for a C9 55 TV. It may work for other C9 series TVs. I am let sure about B9 or G9. I certainly do not believe it will work for the CX series. (However, I am happy to edit a file for someone if they wish me to try.)

 

Disclaimer: While I am technical in nature and have been involved in computers and consumer electronics for years, this whole area is new to me. I cannot take any responsibility for the use of this file. I provide it merely for example and experimentation purposed. I do not work for LG, Sonos or Panasonic.

 

Ok, here is the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2986ilhxe5opkus/LG%20C9%2055%20EDID%20Sonos%20Arc%20Speaker%20Data.zip?dl=0

 

I have a few more experiments to run, but I think I have enough to flag Panasonic that they are failing on this EDID issue and LG for not passing this information from the Sonos.

 

 

 

B
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I’m confused : I bought an LG UBK90 to replace my Panasonic UB820 in order to be able to play my DTS BluRay disc in 5.1 PCM through my LG C1 and my Sonos Arc…

 

… and my DVD and BluRay DTS tracks are still playing in 2.0 PCM.

 

My UBK90 is set in Multi-Channel PCM, then I try to set the tv in bitstream and PCM but I still obtain Stereo PCM as a result.

 

Did I miss something ??

 

 

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@Laird M Malamed Thanks for narrowing down what seems to be the issue between the Panasonic player and the LG TVs with the missing speaker data. I don’t think I spent the time to notice the speaker data was different/missing when I was playing around with all this. Unfortunately I’m not able to play around and test this out with my CX setup at the moment, but maybe I’ll be able to confirm the CX has the same problem in a couple weeks or so and also confirm that I’ll be able to fix it by updating the LG output EDID with the missing speaker data (instead of my previous method of taking the existing Dr HDMI profile and adding the missing Dolby Vision info).

Hopefully with this level of detail on the problem, either Panasonic or LG will provide some kind of fix.

R
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I’m a bit of a layman with all this and not sure I understood all of the posts.

To clarify, will those two steps fix the LPCM issue for this setup, without needing an additional switcher?

I’m still hesitant to pay more money for something I should have, so looking for a solution without added gizmos.

G
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I’m confused : I bought an LG UBK90 to replace my Panasonic UB820 in order to be able to play my DTS BluRay disc in 5.1 PCM through my LG C1 and my Sonos Arc…

 

… and my DVD and BluRay DTS tracks are still playing in 2.0 PCM.

 

My UBK90 is set in Multi-Channel PCM, then I try to set the tv in bitstream and PCM but I still obtain Stereo PCM as a result.

 

Did I miss something ??

 

Be sure the TV settings are set to this:

HDMI Input Audio Format - Bitstream

Digital Sound Output - Passthrough

eARC Support - On

"Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you." - Rashi
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Interesting. I wonder if that’s a bug from when they rolled out LPCM support?

2 x Play 1, Playbase, Panasonic EX 600, Panasonic UB420. One, One Sl + submini
H
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Interesting, thanks all. I have read that the Sonos crew was potentially working on a fix to downmix the 7.1 to 5.1, so I’m hopeful something will come from that in the future, though it has no indicated timeline. I do hear you on the potential, future updates breaking things...it can happen in today’s world...especially with such young technology and all of the vendors not testing against one another’s equipment. The matrix of possibilities might be too large to tackle that.

 

Few things in a few attempts I made this today using the DR HDMI 4K device:

  1. Dolby Vision is staying active today sometimes, even when I re-sink. Good news, maybe...but a cautious good news as I believe it has to do with the order of powering on things (possibly even the DR HDMI 4K device). I got a message from the Panasonic mentioning the device it was connected to was not HDCP 2.2 compliant until going back to the Home screen on the Panasonic.
  2. For the 7.1 thing, I made a new custom bank that only has FC, FL, FR, RL, RR channels as available in the Speaker layout portion of the EDID stuff. It still outputs as 7.1. 
  3. When I switch to Auto (and PCM) instead of Pass Through on the LG, it outputs as Stereo PCM, so I stuck with Pass Through. I also tried combinations with the DTS settings on the Panasonic as Bitstream or PCM...seemed to make no difference, I still get 7.1 in Pass Through whether it’s in Bitstream or PCM.

 

I’ll find some time to play around again later, but my ideas are not many at the moment.

L
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Interesting. I wonder if that’s a bug from when they rolled out LPCM support?

That is what I am wondering too. Or could be LG’s. They show 8 channel support, but not which configurations those go to in the EDID.

R
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Thanks @Laird M Malamed for your work on this!

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Anyone in here owns the new Samsung QN90A tv and The panasonic ub820? Still having the same issues with getting PCM 2.0 instead of LPCM when connecting the player (with DTS set to PCM) and soundbar directly to the TV?

I
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Keep going gents, once we have concrete evidence which manufacturer is to blaim i will be read to bombard them with your findings :D

 

At the minute all three manufactureres blame the other, however i didn’t think Sonos were to blaim at all initally!

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