When using the pre-outs of the ZonePlayer into a receiver or Pre/pro, and then having that unit process the signal in any way that requires digitizing the input, there is obviously a slight delay. Using the speaker outputs of the zoneplayer in an area close by results in the dreaded "echo" effect.
Most receivers (newer/better) have adjustable delay, but it doesn't do any good in this case, as the signal is already delayed too much.
If the zoneplayer had a programmable / adjustable delay for the speaker output only, you could utilize the built in amplifier (which is actually quite good, by my ears.)
This would be a VERY usefull addition.
- Thanks
Chris
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Dodgycurry,
Sometimes disabling the surround processing in the receiver will eliminate its delay.
Sometimes disabling the surround processing in the receiver will eliminate its delay.
Userlevel 2
+1
Really important and should be easy to implement on the software side?
Really important and should be easy to implement on the software side?
In all honesty, this is why I'll never buy a Kenwood receiver. They sound great, but they over do the DSP nonsense, and defaulting to a delay such as this is all part of that obsession with DSP's.
Bleh, the A3000 was at the top of my short list too :(
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
If I can help with the drawing, I've had great experiences with both Onkyo and Denon, and neither brand has a delay (or at least they have a "Direct" override mode).
[Mod note: This is a recurring topic in Sound Ideas. Six threads have been merged.]
Userlevel 2
I agree to the feature request!
I'm using a ZP90 connected via (doesn't matter, tried everthing: optical, coax, analog) to my Yamaha 467, witch produces an delay in relation to a S5 in the same room, if i configure it to use the 5.1 system.
So i need to configure the S5 to intonate a few ms later then the ZP90. But as we know, i can't.
So please include this feature!
I'm using a ZP90 connected via (doesn't matter, tried everthing: optical, coax, analog) to my Yamaha 467, witch produces an delay in relation to a S5 in the same room, if i configure it to use the 5.1 system.
So i need to configure the S5 to intonate a few ms later then the ZP90. But as we know, i can't.
So please include this feature!
Userlevel 2
Yep you read that right! I want to deliberately offset some of my zones by a few seconds.
I have 4 zones and one plays via a ZP90 through a TV (yep I know horrid speakers but that's what it is doing for now). Trouble is the TV (a decent Sony) has a time delay in processing the audio and lags behind the other zones.
I want to be able to say this zone is running xxxx MS slow (give me a slider on the desktop app or an input box and I'll use trial and error to get it audibly close enough - if I can't hear the difference then that's good enough for me). and then use the buffering that each of the other zones already has built in to enable a tweak in the timings so they match.
The time difference is consistent so it should be fixable.
I bet I'm not the only person in the world running a ZP through something that has a delay in processing.
Please take pity on those of us Sonos users who don't have lovely amps 😃
I have 4 zones and one plays via a ZP90 through a TV (yep I know horrid speakers but that's what it is doing for now). Trouble is the TV (a decent Sony) has a time delay in processing the audio and lags behind the other zones.
I want to be able to say this zone is running xxxx MS slow (give me a slider on the desktop app or an input box and I'll use trial and error to get it audibly close enough - if I can't hear the difference then that's good enough for me). and then use the buffering that each of the other zones already has built in to enable a tweak in the timings so they match.
The time difference is consistent so it should be fixable.
I bet I'm not the only person in the world running a ZP through something that has a delay in processing.
Please take pity on those of us Sonos users who don't have lovely amps 😃
Userlevel 2
+1 I have exact same setup and problem as nick
Userlevel 3
Yes, please. This is a mandatory feature for anyone running a ZP through a receiver or pre/pro, and then linking that ZP to one or more amped ZPs.
Using a "direct" mode works sometimes, but is usually not desirable, as it defeats bass management, room EQ, etc.
At present, it's just completely unworkable to link zones with any kind of external processor in the mix.
Using a "direct" mode works sometimes, but is usually not desirable, as it defeats bass management, room EQ, etc.
At present, it's just completely unworkable to link zones with any kind of external processor in the mix.
Has there been any acknowledgement from Sonos on this topic? I just purchased 3 S5's a 120 and a 90 and the 90 is completely worthless. I'm using a YSP-4000 Sound Bar that provides the audio in my main room. Now I have a system that sounds amazing in the bedrooms, kitchen, yard and nothing in the living room. If every receiver has this same processing delay, why does Sonos even make the ZP90? Please add a delay option for the other zones.
Userlevel 2
Because my tube amplifier works like a charm with a ZP90?
(but i agree on the delay problem; had the same issue with a Harman Kardonn HS350)
Welcome to the forums.
Sonos keep an eye on posts here but tend to participate relatively rarely. They have a habit of not discussing potential future developments.
Sonos keep an eye on posts here but tend to participate relatively rarely. They have a habit of not discussing potential future developments.
Ah, Thanks Ratty. I'll keep my fingers crossed with everyone else 🙂
This thread is of particular relevance to me as I take delivery on Monday of a Cullen modified 96kHz Re-clocker ZP90. I plan to connect this by coax cable to use the internal DAC within my HK AVR4500, normally used for home theatre surround sound processing. I recently realised it can handle 96kHz, and indeed 192kHz, signals natively. My original thought had been to add a W4S DAC-1, but I have now decided to walk before I run on this to gain some experience especially with the echo/delay, subject of this topic. The DAC-1 may/may not now happen!
Having just installed a ZP120 plus a pair of Linn Sweetspots into my Bathroom zone yesterday (chilled to Handel's Water Music in the bath last night, LOL), I grouped all four upstairs zones together a few minutes ago (that's 2xZP120; 1xS5; 1xZP90) and synch is first class as I move from room to room, more than acceptable.
I have two fall back options up my sleeve for party mode downstairs (eventually the above mentioned Cullen ZP90; 1 existing S5; and a new ZP120)...
1) Feed the ZP90 analogue o/p to the AVR4500 Direct FL+FR i/p, ie use it just as an amp, no digital stuff in the path.
or
2) If this is still problematic, I may just buy another S5 for the high quality listening zone, exclusively to be used for party mode situations. Bit messy and costly, but should be OK.
I plan to mock up this new high quality listening zone ASAP to hear what actually happens with zone grouping. Will post my findings.
Having just installed a ZP120 plus a pair of Linn Sweetspots into my Bathroom zone yesterday (chilled to Handel's Water Music in the bath last night, LOL), I grouped all four upstairs zones together a few minutes ago (that's 2xZP120; 1xS5; 1xZP90) and synch is first class as I move from room to room, more than acceptable.
I have two fall back options up my sleeve for party mode downstairs (eventually the above mentioned Cullen ZP90; 1 existing S5; and a new ZP120)...
1) Feed the ZP90 analogue o/p to the AVR4500 Direct FL+FR i/p, ie use it just as an amp, no digital stuff in the path.
or
2) If this is still problematic, I may just buy another S5 for the high quality listening zone, exclusively to be used for party mode situations. Bit messy and costly, but should be OK.
I plan to mock up this new high quality listening zone ASAP to hear what actually happens with zone grouping. Will post my findings.
Having just installed a ZP120 plus a pair of Linn Sweetspots into my Bathroom zone yesterday
Off topic, but out of interest how do you find the Sweetspots? My main complaint with them is their inefficiency which means they don't go very loud, but you've said before this probably isn't a problem for you.
Just wondered how you felt now you have them in and have used them in anger?
Cheers,
Keith
Interesting comment from rune re his "pure direct" mode... guess I will just need to wire up my new ZP90 ASAP, and have a listen to hear what happens! Certainly +1 from me on some kind of delay tweaking in future upgrades to the Sonos system.
Majik, can't disagree about speaker efficiency re the Sweetspots. Certainly have to crank up the volume a bit more in the Bathroom zone. And they go loud enough for me! I spent a few moments listening to my favorite station KBPK, and the audio quality has a crispness to it which cuts through the unavoidable background noise of the extraction fan situated in the ceiling void above. Bass performance is surprisingly good for such tiny units.
I did not set out to get quality listening in the "smallest room", and certainly did not want to spend a lot on it. I am delighted... it has worked out just fine!
Majik, can't disagree about speaker efficiency re the Sweetspots. Certainly have to crank up the volume a bit more in the Bathroom zone. And they go loud enough for me! I spent a few moments listening to my favorite station KBPK, and the audio quality has a crispness to it which cuts through the unavoidable background noise of the extraction fan situated in the ceiling void above. Bass performance is surprisingly good for such tiny units.
I did not set out to get quality listening in the "smallest room", and certainly did not want to spend a lot on it. I am delighted... it has worked out just fine!
Just a quick note to say that my Cullen modified 96kHz Re-clocker ZP90 from Wyred 4 Sound (via UK dealer) is now lashed up to my HK AVR4500 for testing. Initially things were not good -- I thought I had zapped one of my speakers, or my amp had a duff channel. A Burst of VERY LOUD audio from one channel only followed by silence. Using its own FM Tuner as source, and patiently checking all the settings, this was found to be a configuration error with speaker setup.
So the ZP90 worked first time out of the box, with a quality that already marks it out as special! It is using a coaxial cable link (IXOS 105) to the HK amp's own internal DAC to decode the 96kHz PCM data stream. Did not even need a software update.
Most importantly for this thread, when grouped with an adjacent zone, there is no audible delay between the zones that I can detect. In fact, if I group it with the zone already established in the same room where testing is taking place, both zones together sound as one. RESULT!
NB: This post is based on a very quick and totally un-scientific appraisal. If I come across anything untoward as my initial excitement abates, I will report back.
So the ZP90 worked first time out of the box, with a quality that already marks it out as special! It is using a coaxial cable link (IXOS 105) to the HK amp's own internal DAC to decode the 96kHz PCM data stream. Did not even need a software update.
Most importantly for this thread, when grouped with an adjacent zone, there is no audible delay between the zones that I can detect. In fact, if I group it with the zone already established in the same room where testing is taking place, both zones together sound as one. RESULT!
NB: This post is based on a very quick and totally un-scientific appraisal. If I come across anything untoward as my initial excitement abates, I will report back.
Userlevel 2
I also need this.
It's exactly this type of added value which makes the cost of a Sonos-system worthwhile. I won't be purchasing mine until it's implemented.
It's exactly this type of added value which makes the cost of a Sonos-system worthwhile. I won't be purchasing mine until it's implemented.
Have been waiting for this feature and hoped I might find it with the new release, but so far nothing.
I still enthusiastically recommend Sonos, but I don't recommend the ZP90. It's a shame, really, that people can't effectively use Sonos in what is likely their "best" AV room.
I especially liked the suggestion above to allow each zone to have its own configurable "I delay by xx ms" setting. This is far better than having to manually adjust each other zone to add a delay.
It also takes care of a system with TWO zones with surround sound receivers. For example, if the Theatre adds 200 ms and the living room adds 100 ms, then when both zones are included in the party Sonos can delay the living room by 100 ms and all other zones in the house by 200 ms, but if the Theatre is not in the party then everything EXCEPT the living room gets a 100 ms delay.
VERY clever solution . . . so now what? 🙂
I still enthusiastically recommend Sonos, but I don't recommend the ZP90. It's a shame, really, that people can't effectively use Sonos in what is likely their "best" AV room.
I especially liked the suggestion above to allow each zone to have its own configurable "I delay by xx ms" setting. This is far better than having to manually adjust each other zone to add a delay.
It also takes care of a system with TWO zones with surround sound receivers. For example, if the Theatre adds 200 ms and the living room adds 100 ms, then when both zones are included in the party Sonos can delay the living room by 100 ms and all other zones in the house by 200 ms, but if the Theatre is not in the party then everything EXCEPT the living room gets a 100 ms delay.
VERY clever solution . . . so now what? 🙂
I agree with jbs, dissapointed this wasn't in the new update. When friends are round for a party the main room is the sitting room (with zp90 and AV receiver) and most people comment about the poor syncing between the zones (echoing type sound that can be heard as soon as you leave the sitting room.
This feature is needed to complete what is otherwise a very good system.
RobinGB
This feature is needed to complete what is otherwise a very good system.
RobinGB
+2
I've got an Onkyo TX SR875 connected to my wireless ZP80 in the living room via coax; in the bedroom a pair of analogue monaural tube amps connected to a “wired” ZP80. The Okyo lags behind ~500 – 750 ms (!) in “Stereo” listening mode, but even switching to “Direct” only reduces the lag to ~100 – 200 ms.
And, as someone else noted, “Direct” mode bollixes bass management — the receiver won't output to my subwoofer in this mode.
So I'd like to add my vote to the masses clamouring for a delay management feature!
Cheers,
— CZ
And, as someone else noted, “Direct” mode bollixes bass management — the receiver won't output to my subwoofer in this mode.
So I'd like to add my vote to the masses clamouring for a delay management feature!
Cheers,
— CZ
+2
OK, I need to revise the delay times — they’re off by an order of magnitude (e.g., s/b ~50 – 75 ms).
Also, it turns out my A/V sync was not set to 0 ms; changing that eliminates the delay in “Direct” and “Pure Audio” modes and brings it down to a tolerable level in “Stereo” mode (< 5 ms).
Still would like to see a delay management feature in Sonos, ’though.
Also, it turns out my A/V sync was not set to 0 ms; changing that eliminates the delay in “Direct” and “Pure Audio” modes and brings it down to a tolerable level in “Stereo” mode (< 5 ms).
Still would like to see a delay management feature in Sonos, ’though.
Userlevel 2
Its all been said before. Sonos, you'll sell three more house-fulls of your product to me if you can add a delay feature. Plus get a bunch of word-of-mouth praise from me to anyone who will listen. But as it stands, no more cash or talk will be dispensed.
Joel
Joel
Userlevel 2
Nothing to add here, everything has been explained in great detail in this thread already. Please add the "delay this zone by n milliseconds" feature!
For completeness: I'm running a ZP120 in the living room and a ZP90 connected to a Yamaha YRS-1000 in the master bedroom.
The Yamaha adds a slight delay to the input signal (trough both analog and S/PDIF inputs, even with all sound tweaking & gimmicks disabled). This makes group mode Useless (with a capital U) for me.
Nuff said. Life goes on.
For completeness: I'm running a ZP120 in the living room and a ZP90 connected to a Yamaha YRS-1000 in the master bedroom.
The Yamaha adds a slight delay to the input signal (trough both analog and S/PDIF inputs, even with all sound tweaking & gimmicks disabled). This makes group mode Useless (with a capital U) for me.
Nuff said. Life goes on.
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