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My great Vinyl dilemma: the line in source level Bug and sonos lack of response

  • 6 December 2019
  • 83 replies
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83 replies

T
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Ok Ryan S, appreciate that response. Had a similar discussion with Robert C.  today as well, after posting this. Still, he said this may take MONTHS to fix. 

T
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I still feel however the suboptimal sensitivity of 8 vs 9 is an audible difference. When it’s fixed and I get 9 back, I’ll seriously give an honest listen  

T
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No with Rega Fono MM Mk3 there is now trim adjustment

T
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Ratty, that’s a good read. Yes there are many reasons why a record could sound better or worse than a cd. I did over generalize. Nonetheless that’s not the point of this discussion. But thanks for the link. Very inf

T
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NO trim adjustments. Sorry

D

Updated to S2 and I am still not able use level 10. However, the bug where it would revert to level 9 after  the app had been closed has been resolved, so that is something. At least it remembers the correct setting. Although, it would be nice if level 10 actually worked.

U

System with Playbar, Beam, Play:3 & Connect. Confirm that Level 9 can be selected but will revert to Level 10 once you close the App and reopen.  Personally I always feed my phono whether the old B&O Linesr or the new Rega Planar 2 through my classic Denon (150 rms/ channel) as I also drive a set of Totem Acoustic SKYs. The Connect gets line in from audio output from the Denon and is quite happy with a 3 or 4 level.  As the Playbar is in the same room we just have fun adding in the Denon when cranking out vintage audio tracks.  The level granularity Or better lack of it used to bug me a lot, especially when the source is something like an iPad or iPod with quite low voltage, but my use of those as direct audio sources has dropped considerably.
 

curious what are you sending the Connect outputs to or are you or grouping to a soundbar?

T
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So...we are far off the subject already. This is why I don’t like utilizing these forums.
Simply put, has anyone else using the line in observed this bug, and are you bothered by it?

K

Now this shouldn’t be extremely apparent between what we call line-in level 9 (0.8V) and line-in level 10 (0.6V), but it may be just enough distortion on the audio line to cause issues.

 

That is very useful Ryan, thanks; can you find out and let us know what line in level at 1 is? Just curious.

I have to say that 0.6V isn't all that high; I had a Quad preamp that provide a range of input sensitivities where the highest sensitivity option went down to 0.1. I doubt that  0.6V at 10 will cause input signal clipping and bears out why I don't hear any distortion at 10 on my Connect Amps/Connects.

My experience also suggests that any speaker sound level differences between 8, 9 and 10 are not large and there is enough left in the volume sliders of the Sonos kit to compensate for these; to me the advantage of 10 is it leaves levels closer to those obtained from the NAS or the net for a given slider position.

jgatie

Jgatie, if you don’t think a digital volume algorithm reduces fidelity, then you don’t know much about digital. I’ve got an Auralic streamer downstairs, and the company says generally leave the digital volume control on 100%. Use the amps volume. For this very reason. If you don’t believe me, run a source in the line in. Play it at level 10. The go to level 1 and quick turn up the master volume. Then tell me they sound the same. I don’t think so.  

 

It’s not digital at that point, that is the analog input level.

T
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Ha, yes, it’s “fixed”. All levels work, but 10 is quieter than before the problem. And 7 and 8 are about the same. I think they used some short cuts to make an apparent fix. It’s all fine though. Sounds just fine. No worries 

T
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Sorry, meant 9 is quieter than before the problem. Not 10. Now big jump from 9 to 10.  No noticeable change from 7 to 8. 

T
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Another weekly post and nothing fixed yet. 

T
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No. I must correct you. I also confirmed the following with a supervisor. Once the signal is received it’s then encoded or digitized to cd red book 16/44.1. Any functions associated with EQ or source volume level are performed in the DIGITAL domain. The bug deals in with digital not analog volume settings. I do believe the actual volume slider for master volume is analog. I think. 

T
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Thanks, airforceteacher

K

My experience is that this is a non issue/storm in a teacup. I have my Echo sources running level 10 with no audible distortion. While I have no idea if the 9 bug is present in my Connect Amps, when I have tried all levels to 10 before selecting 10, all worked fine with just small incremental increases in sound levels from one level to the next.

I see no technical reason why the analog line outs from my Echo devices will be any different from those from OPs phono amp, except for small differences in signal voltage levels.

K

Also, all that the line in levels do is change the input sensitivities of the line in; there is no reason for this to impact fidelity. Except of course in the well known psycho-acoustical manner of resultant lower sound levels sounding less good, something that happens to everyone. The answer is to compensate by boosting Sonos volume levels to bring back the “lost” fidelity.

K

 

why the big deal?  because level 10 distorts with my albums and 8 or less sacrifices fidelity.  this all started about 2 months ago.

 

Before going to the quoted, note that a turntable is perhaps the worst way to check for distortion given the many opportunities for the set up to introduce distortion to the signal before Sonos takes it over at the Line In jacks. Opportunities that have been eliminated by the invention of digital audio. So if you want to blame Sonos, first use a quality digital signal to ensure that the ball for distortion does lie in the Sonos side of the court.

Even using the questionable TT signal, the quoted can still be tested/challenged. Using level 8 will deliver the same sound levels as 10, so long as there is space to the right of the volume level slider in the Sonos control app to boost sound levels a tad to reach those achieved at level 10. If enough of this space exists, does the boosted 8 level now sound distortion free compared to the unboosted 10 level?

And, if so, with sound levels the same at 8 and 10, how have you determined that the level 8 provided sound has less fidelity?

And to rule out a hardware defect in the 5 unit, however unlikely, get a new unit on a returnable basis and see what it does in comparison to your unit.

Or, keep venting.

K

 

 

Absolutely obliterates inner groove distortion. 

 

Lol. I have absolutely no clue what that bit means. I can understand a cartridge obliterating inner grooves:-).

K

Got it, thanks. Another reason why vinyl has fundamental issues hindering performance/sound quality.

T
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Thanks Kumar for weighing in. I have 3 Sonos pieces in my house, and they all do the same thing with level 9 unable to be selected.  Sound takes big leap from 8 to 9 and when you back up 2 screens and reopen source level it says 10. 
so regarding the tt, it is indeed louder than cd with same record on 10. It’s quieter than cd on 8. Yes, I verified with a good digital source all you said above. Perhaps my at vm540ml cart upgrade is louder than other carts. I think it’s louder than the stock cart. 
regarding how the input level is technically adjusted (is digital volume or other?), I don’t know. Technician had confirmed my guess that it’s a digital volume adjustment. That’s what my ears tell me. I just know a quick volume toggle with the master volume when I’m using 8. Still sounds ok, but not great. I was used to using the level 9 before I lost it and really felt I had better fidelity. And it matched up with cd volume. I know SQ is subjective though. 
I just miss level 9. 

T
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Oh, and I use a Rega Fono MM mk3 external phono stage. Pretty good piece. 

T
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So the distortion on level 10 is mild and not constant. Also, I don’t have it for older albums recorded before the “volume wars” with all the compression etc used in latter day studios. Level Nine was a cd volume matched perfect level for my tt. 
thanks again guys for your interest here. 
briefly, yes, I think 24/96 high end dac playback has many advantages and sounds up to snuff with vinyl. Thanks God for Qobuz and Tidal!  Use em a lot. 

K


I just miss level 9. 

If that is what you are fixed upon, there is nothing to be done till Sonos fixes the issue for you. I don't think this is a major issue for reasons I have stated, but that’s just me.

T
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Agreed. I just posted more to help Sonos answer the question of how widespread this is. At this point, my main interest in this thread is people responding that they do or don’t manifest this bug on their devices. 
I realize I’m fixated on this, but I really just wanna know yea or nay from as many people as possible 😊

thanks

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