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My great Vinyl dilemma: the line in source level Bug and sonos lack of response

  • 6 December 2019
  • 83 replies
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83 replies

Ryan S
Userlevel 7
Badge +26

The way I understand it, line-in level addresses the line in sensitivity, and overall gain applied to the signal received from the line-in device. And regarding your question, this is happening on the analog line before it gets converted to a digital signal as far as I know.

The line level is important because at some levels the audio signal may be too faint for the line input to even hear it. However, if you increase sensitivity and apply to much gain to a signal, it may cause it to be too loud and get distorted if the line signal is much stronger. Now this shouldn’t be extremely apparent between what we call line-in level 9 (0.8V) and line-in level 10 (0.6V), but it may be just enough distortion on the audio line to cause issues.

The issue at hand it pretty straightforward, when setting the source level to level 9, the app changes the level to 10 when you return to settings. When setting source level to level 10, the app reverts the line level back to the previous setting when you return to settings. They’re working on it currently.

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T
Badge +2

Oh, the tt has been cartridge upgraded, optimally aligned (Baerwald), optimally anti skate set. It does sound great, and with well conditioned albums, there’s scant little distortion. The at vm540ml is a great cart for the money. Absolutely obliterates inner groove distortion. 

T
Badge +2

Yes, personal email with Robert C contradicts what I was told previously. Now I am told the source level is adjusted in analog. 
think I’ll take your advice Ratty. Your audio verbiage was eloquently succinct. Not being sarcastic. I promise. I enjoyed reading it. we’ll put. 
but… the thrust of my thread is STILL that I want to hear from others that this little glitch reproduces on their devices or not. 
I still want to hear from more, as testing it is exceedingly easy and quick. 
again, thanks to all!
 

ratty

I’d hoped for a more robust response from those seeing this. 

 

Ryan already said “It is still being investigated and worked on”. I’m not sure what else he can add.

This surely has to qualify as a ‘First World problem’. You can adjust the Line-In sensitivity. Any digitisation and scaling errors resulting from a sub-optimal sensitivity have to pale into insignificance compared to the noise and distortion introduced by vinyl playback from the turntable in the first place.

Chill. Sip a glass of wine. 

T
Badge +2

So...I’d hoped for a more robust response from those seeing this.  can anyone else out there comment about this bug or no on their sonos devices?  I do appreciate any new responses, thanks!

T
Badge +2

 Think that’s right

T
Badge +2

So kumar, you selected 8, then 9, then back up 2 screens or close app and reopen? 
bug: reopens on 10

no bug: reopens on 9

T
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I am in Florida. No idea if location useful here, admitted

T
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What state you live in, kumar?  Got one nay and one yea, so far

 

 

K

Nay for my units then, for two connect amps and two connects. All working fine.

T
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Ryan S, 

since many here are wanting to challenge the methodology of the source level function, can you weigh in on this?  Is it done through manipulation of the digital signal or done before conversion in the analog domain?

 

T
Badge +2

Agreed. I just posted more to help Sonos answer the question of how widespread this is. At this point, my main interest in this thread is people responding that they do or don’t manifest this bug on their devices. 
I realize I’m fixated on this, but I really just wanna know yea or nay from as many people as possible 😊

thanks

K


I just miss level 9. 

If that is what you are fixed upon, there is nothing to be done till Sonos fixes the issue for you. I don't think this is a major issue for reasons I have stated, but that’s just me.

T
Badge +2

Oh, and I use a Rega Fono MM mk3 external phono stage. Pretty good piece. 

T
Badge +2

Thanks Kumar for weighing in. I have 3 Sonos pieces in my house, and they all do the same thing with level 9 unable to be selected.  Sound takes big leap from 8 to 9 and when you back up 2 screens and reopen source level it says 10. 
so regarding the tt, it is indeed louder than cd with same record on 10. It’s quieter than cd on 8. Yes, I verified with a good digital source all you said above. Perhaps my at vm540ml cart upgrade is louder than other carts. I think it’s louder than the stock cart. 
regarding how the input level is technically adjusted (is digital volume or other?), I don’t know. Technician had confirmed my guess that it’s a digital volume adjustment. That’s what my ears tell me. I just know a quick volume toggle with the master volume when I’m using 8. Still sounds ok, but not great. I was used to using the level 9 before I lost it and really felt I had better fidelity. And it matched up with cd volume. I know SQ is subjective though. 
I just miss level 9. 

K

 

why the big deal?  because level 10 distorts with my albums and 8 or less sacrifices fidelity.  this all started about 2 months ago.

 

Before going to the quoted, note that a turntable is perhaps the worst way to check for distortion given the many opportunities for the set up to introduce distortion to the signal before Sonos takes it over at the Line In jacks. Opportunities that have been eliminated by the invention of digital audio. So if you want to blame Sonos, first use a quality digital signal to ensure that the ball for distortion does lie in the Sonos side of the court.

Even using the questionable TT signal, the quoted can still be tested/challenged. Using level 8 will deliver the same sound levels as 10, so long as there is space to the right of the volume level slider in the Sonos control app to boost sound levels a tad to reach those achieved at level 10. If enough of this space exists, does the boosted 8 level now sound distortion free compared to the unboosted 10 level?

And, if so, with sound levels the same at 8 and 10, how have you determined that the level 8 provided sound has less fidelity?

And to rule out a hardware defect in the 5 unit, however unlikely, get a new unit on a returnable basis and see what it does in comparison to your unit.

Or, keep venting.

K

Also, all that the line in levels do is change the input sensitivities of the line in; there is no reason for this to impact fidelity. Except of course in the well known psycho-acoustical manner of resultant lower sound levels sounding less good, something that happens to everyone. The answer is to compensate by boosting Sonos volume levels to bring back the “lost” fidelity.

K

My experience is that this is a non issue/storm in a teacup. I have my Echo sources running level 10 with no audible distortion. While I have no idea if the 9 bug is present in my Connect Amps, when I have tried all levels to 10 before selecting 10, all worked fine with just small incremental increases in sound levels from one level to the next.

I see no technical reason why the analog line outs from my Echo devices will be any different from those from OPs phono amp, except for small differences in signal voltage levels.

T
Badge +2

Thanks, airforceteacher

airforceteacher
Userlevel 6
Badge +15

Confirmed with my Play:5 Gen 2

T
Badge +2

So I would ask if someone reading this thread would simply plug a cable into their line in jack (you don’t even need a source attached at the other end) and test to see if there are toggle glitches between the levels. Put it on 8, then 9, then back two screens. Then reopen and see if it’s now on 10. This simple sequence demonstrates the glitch. Wanna see if this is universal. Sonos said they reproduced this in their lab, but weren’t sure how universal it was. 
another way of checking is go from 8 to 10. Then reopen and see if it’s still 8. 
thanks to all!

T
Badge +2

Got it. Thanks. Yes, I suppose the tension between jgatie and I was the reason. Seemed minimal though. No worries. 

melvimbe

Wow. My other more succinct thread was WIPED. Wonder if my bringing it up here will get this thread WIPED too. COMMUNISM!  😂 LOL

 

Your other thread would not have been intentionally removed unless it broke community policies, and couldn’t be edited/fixed.  Most likely, there was some other error that’s preventing the thread from display.  This current thread is not bad at all, and can’t imagine Ryan would post to it if there was an issue.

 

 

Danny
T
Badge +2

Wow. My other more succinct thread was WIPED. Wonder if my bringing it up here will get this thread WIPED too. COMMUNISM!  😂 LOL

T
Badge +2

No. I must correct you. I also confirmed the following with a supervisor. Once the signal is received it’s then encoded or digitized to cd red book 16/44.1. Any functions associated with EQ or source volume level are performed in the DIGITAL domain. The bug deals in with digital not analog volume settings. I do believe the actual volume slider for master volume is analog. I think. 

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