The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

K

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

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570 replies

K

@chickentender janky will work:-)

K

John MacFarlane led Sonos to its present position in the market from day 1 till retiring a couple of years ago.

A paraphrase of his very recent tweet on the subject that should encourage all here to keep going in the direction we are planning:

“Most of his 14 player system is impacted other than a few new items. He intends doing nothing until Sonos has something in an update which makes him want it.”

Obviously then, he also did not fall for the Trade Up trap.

chickentender

John MacFarlane led Sonos to its present position in the market from day 1 till retiring a couple of years ago.

A paraphrase of his very recent tweet on the subject that should encourage all here to keep going in the direction we are planning:

“Most of his 14 player system is impacted other than a few new items. He intends doing nothing until Sonos has something in an update which makes him want it.”

Obviously then, he also did not fall for the Trade Up trap.

I’ve thought about MacFarlane a number of times in the past few days, wondering what his thoughts on all this were. I’d be interested to hear a few more, but that small bit is telling… and encouraging. :)

K

@chickentender Here is more - he appended a crying face emoji when referring to the Connect Amps in the legacy side of his system.

That puts me in august company.

I don't know about encouraging, most US companies tend to treat former CEOs even worse than they treat customers. But telling, 100%.

Poor Spence.

K

And here is a copy paste of another tweet from him, that does not take us forward, so I had not posted it.

But, since you ask: The parade of people that just can't be bothered to read/think just continues for Sonos. Sonos started this dumpster fire with poor customer empathy and coms, but the meme just lives on.

chickentender

@Kumar … here you are, in all it’s janky and hurried glory. :joy:

My simple new Bluesound/Sonos hybrid. (I’m sure I’ve forgotten something, but this is my “simple” setup.)

 

T
Userlevel 3
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Here's the detail.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b1-bluetooth-music-receiver/

Review here..

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audioengine/b1.htm

The review is from 2014, and has been obsoleted by Echo. For a lot less money, get a Echo Dot or Input, and wire it to your line in jacks. In addition to voice, Echo devices can also receive bluetooth music streams from paired devices. You can even leave the mic permanently off and use it this way. I have used mine to convert my desktop Sonos to a computer speaker, connected to my Mac via bluetooth. Via Sonos line in jacks.

 

Intend stay in Legacy until more facts come to table: PlayBase, Play Bar, Sonos1s

Amazon Echo Inputs on the way.  One for A/V system, short term in addition to/alternative to ZP-90; one for Connect Amp using line-in.  If works well will consider for Play5s.  Worth a try at modest price. WTH.

Kilpsch has a wireless system, obviously not as, shall I say, experienced as Sonos. Planning to explore it, but it’s a cost, of course.  Seems to be more modular design but gotta go learn.

Not an engineer or designer, but it sure seems like the old units could go “dumb” with a $35 add-on device that talks to old-unit via ethernet port, with add-on device handling processing and be upgradeable.  Someone will do this if Sonos does not.

chickentender

When I want to include the wireless sonos environment, I group the speakers as I want in the Sonos app and play the Connect Line-in as source. I switch my receiver from AUX to TAPE-IN (effectively just an AUX-2 in this setup) so that what comes out the passive wired speakers in perfect Sonos-sync with the audio going out to the wireless ONE and Play1s. It’s as quick as that. The audio source is still the Bluesound Node 2i, but routed through the Connect. If I don't need whole-house (which is 80% of the time) I just use the Node 2i alone via AUX on the receiver.

Incidentally, as another level of complexity, but future stability, my wife’s iPhone/Macbook can send to both the Node 2i and the Sonos ONE via Airplay-2 simultaneously with perfect sync, even while the non-airplay Play:1 speakers are grouped with the ONE. That impressed me. (Hats off to Sonos on that count for magically shoe-horning the older players in with the Airplay-2 compatibles ones without any added delay.)

K

@chickentender the sketch is perfect. I will study and respond. Quick question, do the passive speakers and Sonos speakers play in sync? I think not.

@train_nerd sounds good, note though that Sonos Ethernet jacks take Sonos proprietary signals, and won't serve for third party. It has to be analog audio out to Sonos line in jacks

@chickentender hold that, I need to re read.

K

@train_nerd I know from mine that echo dot can receive Bluetooth. Not sure than input can, so do check. Voice controlled play from input wired to line in jacks on Sonos will work, no doubt on that bit.

K

@chickentender

Are you not seeing  TV lip sync issues for sound coming from the Sonos speakers? Unless your line in is set to uncompressed mode, in which case the question changes to - are you not seeing signal stability in the wirelessly connected Sonos speakers? That is what I found for my TV wired to a Connect; I solved that by ethernet wiring the Sonos speakers needed for piping in sync TV audio around. In your case if the remote Sonos speaker listeners cannot see the TV images, it will not matter. In my case, it is essential that lip sync is achieved everywhere which requires uncompressed mode which requires running wires to the Sonos speakers. 

My other comment is that this is a very customised set up and cannot be a copy/paste thing to a majority of the user base. If one did not have a TV in the mix for example, just a straight multi zone Sonos set up, where does the Node come in? And why is it needed?

Finally, I will challenge the better sound notion if it was not moot. Simply because it is not moot, I will let it slide, although I am happy to discuss it on another thread. It is moot because this thread is about replicating existing Sonos functionality, including Sonos sound quality, so no one here should be interested in that conversation, or interested in Node just to get better quality sound. If they are they can join it on the other thread, because it won't be a short conversation:-).

chickentender

@chickentender

Are you not seeing  TV lip sync issues for sound coming from the Sonos speakers? Unless your line in is set to uncompressed mode, in which case the question changes to - are you not seeing signal stability in the wirelessly connected Sonos speakers? That is what I found for my TV wired to a Connect; I solved that by ethernet wiring the Sonos speakers needed for piping in sync TV audio around. In your case if the remote Sonos speaker listeners cannot see the TV images, it will not matter. In my case, it is essential that lip sync is achieved everywhere which requires uncompressed mode which requires running wires to the Sonos speakers. 

My other comment is that this is a very customised set up and cannot be a copy/paste thing to a majority of the user base. If one did not have a TV in the mix for example, just a straight multi zone Sonos set up, where does the Node come in? And why is it needed?

Finally, I will challenge the better sound notion if it was not moot. Simply because it is moot, I will let it slide, although I am happy to discuss it on another thread. It is moot because this thread is about replicating existing Sonos functionality, including Sonos sound quality, so no one here should be interested in that conversation, or interested in Node just to get better quality sound. If they are they can join it on the other thread, because it won't be a short conversation:-).

You’re correct on both the lip-sync and drop-out issues. I’ve always ran uncompressed since the having the Connect in place in this way from day-1 for that reason. Lip-sync, even when in uncompressed on the Connect’s LINE-IN still exists as many will note, but small enough that it’s nearly imperceptible and doesn’t bother me.  I only pipe TV audio (e.g. A/V audio, not music or podcasts etc.) to the wireless Sonos for sports and if I do so I turn compression back on (because if I don’t then yes, there are occasional drop-outs depending on network traffic at the time). I’d be curious how the Bluesound would handle this, but since I’ve no other Bluesound zone I have no idea. As it is currently however, with the Node2i now in-place where Connect was, the A/V lip-sync is entirely perfect.

It’s certainly not a usual Sonos implementation, but the Connect exists for that reason - to interface multiple existing audio setups, so I’m sure it’s not entirely unusual, else the lip-sync issue wouldn't have had so much coverage over the past years already.

And, no, this shouldn’t deteriorate in an SQ discussion, but it is relelvant from a hardware perspective in discussion elsewhere as well just from the standpoint that customers and the industry are asking for things that Sonos has eschewed for quite a while now. That said, the DAC in the Node is noticeably better, but a large portion of my experience in just a few hours is dealing mostly with an optical input source, which the Connect (and Port) do not accommodate, so that too is a bit moot (but optical was also a serious draw to the Node for my uses, among a short-list of other things). I’ve not done any A/B same source listening for Node vs. Connect as of this moment, but in the way they’re currently setup it’s as easy as a switch flick on the receiver so I’ll likely do so tomorrow. (Would be nice to have the Port for comparison but that won't be happening in my house unfortunately.)

More to the point, where does a Node go if not for a TV in the mix? It can feed the LINE-IN of the Connect directly (analog RCA to analog RCA) and be used as the source for streaming services potentially no longer support by the legacy Connect firmware in the future. Why do this instead of buying a Port? Perhaps just a case that someone wants a way to transition away from Sonos, but not all at once. Or perhaps to add a device that additional options/offerings. Port is still attractive from the standpoint that it too offers Airplay2, but the Node provides that plus optical, aptX Bluetooth, IR learning, a control surface, a headphone jack, hi-res support (we’re not talking about that  :wink: ), etc. E.g. a good chunk more options, many of which make it rather what I was looking for in the first place - a genuine “hub” in the center of my A/V setup that genuinely connects everything, becoming a soundbar replacement, a streaming center, a Bluetooth receiver point and quite a bit more.

This has gotten too long. Eesh. Pausing here.

Y

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

 

I can confirm Roon does this. I was achieving multiroom sync on a legacy play 5, 2x zp90 and 2x Sonos ones. A mixture of legacy and more recent units all in sync and controlled directly from Roon. I still use Roon but sold the legacy Sonos units over 6 months ago. 
 

Ah hold on. I just noticed your wording in the question. I am not sure if Roon can stream simultaneously to a future split Sonos system (I the way it is suggested when legacy is kept alongside modern units). The above experience refers to streaming to legacy and modern units that run on the same network. Sorry for any confusion 

K



It’s certainly not a usual Sonos implementation, but the Connect exists for that reason - to interface multiple existing audio setups, so I’m sure it’s not entirely unusual, else the lip-sync issue wouldn't have had so much coverage over the past years already.

And, no, this shouldn’t deteriorate in an SQ discussion

More to the point, where does a Node go if not for a TV in the mix? It can feed the LINE-IN of the Connect directly (analog RCA to analog RCA) and be used as the source for streaming services potentially no longer support by the legacy Connect firmware in the future. Why do this instead of buying a Port?

I have started keeping an eye out ever since I had issues with my TV issues that are recent - I had a TV lying around and I had a balcony with a Connect in it to drive that zone, so I thought it would be a cool idea to get a TV in the balcony! - I have seen more discussions around uncompressed streaming issues for folks using a turntable via Sonos line in. For a TV application, Sonos has, erroneously as I have successfully explained to folks like Ryan, dismissed Connect music stability issues with TV by the short answer: “Connect isn't meant for heavy TV audio streams”. Believe it or not, they actually said that, I have emails archived as proof:-) Anyway…

I wouldn’t say “deteriorate” I would say “digress”. I have had plenty of these conversations with plenty of people here on that little bit:-). Again, anyway…

Why not an Echo Dot instead of a Node then? If all that is being needed is replicating Sonos capability. Depending on its ability to stream from the service of choice of course, at the time the need arises, when the line in jacks on the Connect stop delivering. Or something else in its price range.

K
Userlevel 5
Badge +2

This thread is excellent! I will let my system (2 legacy, 5 new of which one Play 1 which I expect to be killed soon) live on in legacy mode for as long as I can, but as soon as it starts bricking or is forced to split i will revert back here asap.  

A

 

Why not an Echo Dot instead of a Node then? If all that is being needed is replicating Sonos capability. Depending on its ability to stream from the service of choice of course, at the time the need arises, when the line in jacks on the Connect stop delivering. Or something else in its price range.

You’ve mentioned Echo Do’s before… I have a couple here that I bought to play with, but haven’t really gone much further than using them as kitchen timers. I was looking at a youtube video (I know, I know) and it looked like you have to jump through hoops a bit to get it to stream from a local NAS. Is this what you do?

K

@amun - yes, you are spot on there. Echo dots do not do local NAS, I only use them for streaming services - Amazon, Apple and soon in India hopefully, Spotify. Complete oversight on my part, mea culpa.

Any time I need local NAS, I turn to Sonos.

I know there are workaround that are alleged to offer this, but I haven't bothered to try.

In my defence though, Sonos now says that NAS supplied music play should last till the hardware dies. 

A

@amun - yes, you are spot on there. They do not do local NAS, I only use them for streaming services - Amazon, Apple and soon in India hopefully, Spotify. Complete oversight on my part, mea culpa.

Any time I need local NAS, I turn to Sonos.

I know there are workaround that are alleged to offer this, but I haven't bothered to try.

In my defence though, Sonos now says that NAS supplied music play should last till the hardware dies. 

@Kumar Thanks for the confirmation - I had a feeling that this was the case so didn’t want to spend a lot of time on it if there was an easier way :grinning:

I agree that the legacy option should be fine, but I find the CCA approach to be a sensible backup - even if the whole thing falls apart.

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

@amun - yes, you are spot on there. Echo dots do not do local NAS, I only use them for streaming services - Amazon, Apple and soon in India hopefully, Spotify. Complete oversight on my part, mea culpa.

Any time I need local NAS, I turn to Sonos.

I know there are workaround that are alleged to offer this, but I haven't bothered to try.

In my defence though, Sonos now says that NAS supplied music play should last till the hardware dies. 

There’s a nice skill (MyMedia) which gives you access to your NAS files.   You need to run a small database server on another PC (Windows, Mac, Linux) - costs 5 usd a year sub.  Works well on a raspi zero (20 usd)

https://www.mymediaalexa.com/

K

@amun  Agreed on CCA; but as you pointed out, one now needs access to the used products market, since Google has stopped selling it. 

F
Userlevel 2
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@amun  Agreed on CCA; but as you pointed out, one now needs access to the used products market, since Google has stopped selling it. 

Or even a used old-style Airport Express. I’ve seen them as low as £4.

K

@FarFromGruntled - I have used these for audio back in 2011. Their weakness is stable music play because of how the music streams are handled, particularly for grouped play. I only use them as WiFi access points now, wired to the network. In that role they are still excellent.

Eddie the Eagle
Userlevel 3
Badge +4

Not sure if this was already raised, it is almost impossible to read trough all the legacy related posts, but what if (purely hypothetical) this is judgment day for Sonos and leads to it`s bankruptcy ? How would scenario`s look like, over and out for a zillion of users? I guess we are heavily depending on their servers and infrastructure, and given the storm of reactions this would not be the unthinkable. Would any of the big tech guys step up and take over whatever is left ?

To say that his style is unorthodox would be something of an understatement, but it obviously works for him.
chickentender

Yup, Echo is fine if setup sans NAS isn’t an issue. I have other reasons for not going that direction, personal and technical, but logistically it’s fine. The Echo Link is more comparable in my instance.
Another piece I looked at potentially was a scrappy little Arylic S50 Pro streamer box. Does nearly everything the Bluesound does but uses 4Stream application - certainly more DIY oriented but I chose not plunge in until one is offered via Amazon for a return policy in case it didn’t work out for me. The cost is far less though.
Quite honestly, in terms of expanding my own system, were the Port half the price it’s currently listed at, I’d make it work and likely buy more than one for extending to the rest of the house by means of small powered speakers. But for what it is, I can’t justify that personally. I’d sooner pick up additional Node or Powernode units
As many know, Apple users should/could look to Airplay2 certified speakers. Libratone has some nice drop-in-a-room options. Smaller Sonos as well work for this.

chickentender

Another option to drop in-place of the Node in my example (e.g. hooking it up to a Connect’s analog input), perhaps obviously, is any of the relatively less expensive Bluetooth AptX capable receivers available now. Would allow grouping/volume/settings similarly still taken care of within the legacy Sonos app, but for streaming/media-selection you’d use the native applications on PC or mobile device of whichever streaming app you are using. Modular and not tied to streaming APIs within Sonos.

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