While you sit in your conference rooms and debate the 8.x app with corporate speak sentences like "They will get used to it" and "This happens every major upgrade" and "Scale-able, cross-platform modern blah blah blah.....".
One thing that has never happened before with my Sonos house happened last night. And it is important you realize the significance.
I had three couples over for drinks and I put on one of my playlists and then I turned the ipad over and placed it under my bar. I did it without thinking - it just seemed less distracting that way.
This morning i did think about it however. I had never done that before. I tend to hand off the Ipad and let guests marvel at my wonderful Sonos system. I let them pick music from the seemingly endless inventory of tunes from Google and Apple. Soon old songs are played that bring back great memories - people sing and some might even dance.
It almost always turns into a "So what is this Sonos thing?".
Last night. That did not happen.
The new interface is just confusing enough for new users that i have to give a tutorial I didn't feel like giving a tutorial.
The aesthetic is a bit too glaring and, in my opinion, not as attractive as it once was.
Your app is more than a tool. It is a showpiece. And we, the owners of Sonos dearly love to show it off. The speakers, yeah, they the Wow factor when the rich sound fills the house but when a new user touches the app and finds any song at the end of their fingertips, you can almost see the excitement in their eyes.
So while we can debate endlessly of 8.x being intuitive or not intuitive or 8.x being an evolutionary step forward or backward, one thing is a stone cold fact: six people did not fall in love with Sonos last night.
And THAT is something you should worry about.
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Userlevel 4
The people sledging the OP have missed the point, in their rush to be holier-than-thou about it.
The point was that Sonos lost a net promoter, and here's why: dislike of new UX. And even better, it's attached to a pithy user story and specific use case. That is feedback that Sonos's product managers actually could find useful. Being a dick to the OP doesn't change that, but it could suppress it in future. All good PMs know that every piece of unsolicited feedback hints at an iceberg of unrevealed market preferences.
So the rest of you - the people telling the OP how or why they "did the wrong thing"; to Sonos's product managers, you are being suppressive noise, not helpful signal. Did you stop to think for a moment, "who does my opinion assist?" Hint: it certainly isn't the OP, who will just be thinking "f*** you". And it isn't Sonos, either.
Source: I am a product manager (not for Sonos).
The point was that Sonos lost a net promoter, and here's why: dislike of new UX. And even better, it's attached to a pithy user story and specific use case. That is feedback that Sonos's product managers actually could find useful. Being a dick to the OP doesn't change that, but it could suppress it in future. All good PMs know that every piece of unsolicited feedback hints at an iceberg of unrevealed market preferences.
So the rest of you - the people telling the OP how or why they "did the wrong thing"; to Sonos's product managers, you are being suppressive noise, not helpful signal. Did you stop to think for a moment, "who does my opinion assist?" Hint: it certainly isn't the OP, who will just be thinking "f*** you". And it isn't Sonos, either.
Source: I am a product manager (not for Sonos).
The very, very few posters who have attempted to discuss the phenomenon I describe I have engaged with politely and respectfully.
Nope you don't have a polite or respectful word in you as far as I can tell. You've invaded and derailed almost every thread I've read on these forums with your muscle memory schtick and/or heaping insults and scorn on anyone with an opposing pov .
These Sonos forum communities are incredibly unfriendly and you are the main troll. The fake offense you take to being called out on it is hilarious. And with that I'm done feeding the troll.
By calling people childish you are shooting the messenger instead of the message. And given how often you have done so the past weeks, you'd expect Sonos to be a product for toddlers.
What you have is anecdotal evidence at best, based on a single instance. Anyone with a science background can tell you that doesn't mean much.
Moreover your line of reasoning ignores the possibility that the app before 5.0 was indeed more intuitive, and that the new version simply got even worse.
Muscle memory is one little element in terms of intuitiveness and easy of use. And in case of 8.0 plenty of others apply as well. from inefficient navigation paths, over a design that results in excessively long lists, to a poor colour choice.
None of those examples have anything to do with muscle memory, yet they all apply. Something you conveniently keep on ignoring although the majority of complaints are aimed at such issues.
Yes, and that can't have anything to do with constantly derailing the conversation with that muscle memory rant while calling people childish now, can it?
Which is btw, exactly what you did in this thread as well. Because clearly it can'tbe anything else. The new design can not be less intuitive then before, let alone flat out a step back compared to the previous version. No, it must be muscle memory and nothing else.
More like, one sees what is typically there to be seen. I don't rule out that you have occasionally discussed the actual merits of the new design, but in the large majority of the cases you derail the conversation and start shooting the messenger. And yes, that does get annoying quite quickly
Your helpfulness elsewhere in this forum doesn't justify the rudeness you display in this one..
Well, I can’t do that. I can request (by voice) lots of less than HIFI quality streams such as from Amazon I can’t request my own library, Deezer, or Tidal or any other HIFI quality streams. Spotify, when it arrives,will also be seriously lossy/compressed too.
Just thought it worth making the distinction that the app is still more useful than voice — if you care about the source quality. And I agree that the app is woeful.
Andrew
Actually, in my experience i have tried with wife, 16 year old daughter, buddy who is a neighbor.
Wife, now tells me what to play instead of using it.
16 year old daughter isn't updating her phone
Buddy. "Why did they do this?"
So really my predetermined bias was: "You know, i'm not as proud of the software as I once was"
The cool thing about my bias (as a customer) is it is mine.
Wife, now tells me what to play instead of using it.
16 year old daughter isn't updating her phone
Buddy. "Why did they do this?"
So really my predetermined bias was: "You know, i'm not as proud of the software as I once was"
The cool thing about my bias (as a customer) is it is mine.
...
Thanks, it is here that I bow out of the conversation and this forum. As it with my postings about the v8 app I repeatedly said that one’s own viewpoint is just that. What *I* hear is what I hear, what *I* see is what I see, what *I* feel is what I feel.
If my personal opinion is odious, so be it. However I don’t need to be told by others what I should think, feel, see or hear. I have only been around these forums a few weeks to realise there are 3 individuals who feel the need to chime in on almost every thread; they effectively act as bullys who put down any dissent in the ranks. Either way this is not a chilled or friendly place to hang out. You guys are welcome to it. cheerio
Thanks, it is here that I bow out of the conversation and this forum. As it with my postings about the v8 app I repeatedly said that one’s own viewpoint is just that. What *I* hear is what I hear, what *I* see is what I see, what *I* feel is what I feel.
If my personal opinion is odious, so be it. However I don’t need to be told by others what I should think, feel, see or hear. I have only been around these forums a few weeks to realise there are 3 individuals who feel the need to chime in on almost every thread; they effectively act as bullys who put down any dissent in the ranks. Either way this is not a chilled or friendly place to hang out. You guys are welcome to it. cheerio
And...why?
Because it is different.
Different is one thing, cumbersome and inefficient however is something else.
Really fascinating how some of you don't even want acknowledge the increased number of clicks. The lack of a full screen confirmation when you do so, or select a music source. Or the everything but compact views in which hardly anything fits into a single screen.
Fact is nothing got easier with the new interface, at best it remained the same, and often if requires more effort.
Could you show me the place where I've lobbied for the shutdown of opinions? Where I've claimed the victim? Where I call others names and hurl insults and then don't accept the same in kind? Where I've attacked the poster and not what they post?
I have not been active long on this forum, but in practically every thread in which someone voiced critique on the new design, I have seen you shoot the messenger. Time and time again, you go of on a rant on how this is the same as with 5.0 and that is nothing more than muscle memory, and that people who complain about the new design are just ridiculous. The below is a perfect example in this regard.
"the childish rants over what is essentially an easily relearned interface to an extremely first world luxury music system. Yet it is being talked about like it has the impact of world hunger or climate change."
Instead of engaging with other forum posters on the pro-and cons of the new interface, you almost systematically attack the poster for not going along with the program. And looks like I'm not the only one who noticed that
Is he trolling or what?
Your helpfulness elsewhere in this forum doesn't justify the rudeness you display in this one..
His rudeness is displayed in many other threads also.
It's a small piece of a bigger puzzle which you keep on ignoring. Doesn't matter what other points people bring up, you won't address them. You just repeat your little rant and try to limit the thread to just that. And yes, that's derailing the conversation.
If you don't think it's rude to cal people childish, overly dramatic about a first world problem, etc, you need your eyes checked.
Says the bully..
BCM, when I have bad service/food at a restaurant, I will most likely tell others. I have no problem "depriving" them of the same poor experience.
Imo the one with a creepy obsession is jgatie, I've only been here a few hours and he's in like every thread I've read dealing with Alexa, the one or 8.1 feedback totally derailing the discussion.
Is he trolling or what?
Userlevel 1
This is a ridiculous response. The ease of use has been dramatically reduced. Period. Why should I have to learn a totally new system at Sonos' whim? At work we accept this as part of the job. I'm at home and I want things to work well and with ease. I don't want to learn a new system. What's more, I don't want to try to teach my mother a new system at her house either.
Let me get this straight.
Your "experience" didn't even attempt to test what their reaction was, you merely predetermined the outcome and simply didn't show them the app due to your own misgivings about the interface?
To quote Dana Carvey's Church lady - "How conveeeenient!"
So all we have here is a predetermined bias that may or may not be due to muscle memory and familiarity issues projected upon the expected reaction of your guests. And this bias caused you to never present them with the opportunity to give their actual opinions, and yet, you think this proves your case? To the outside eye, this tells me you weren't even confident enough in your own analysis to offer it up to the scrutiny of your guests, instead you decided their reaction for them.
I think I speak for all when I reply - *YAWN*
Your "experience" didn't even attempt to test what their reaction was, you merely predetermined the outcome and simply didn't show them the app due to your own misgivings about the interface?
To quote Dana Carvey's Church lady - "How conveeeenient!"
So all we have here is a predetermined bias that may or may not be due to muscle memory and familiarity issues projected upon the expected reaction of your guests. And this bias caused you to never present them with the opportunity to give their actual opinions, and yet, you think this proves your case? To the outside eye, this tells me you weren't even confident enough in your own analysis to offer it up to the scrutiny of your guests, instead you decided their reaction for them.
I think I speak for all when I reply - *YAWN*
[quote=chicks]
Always amused by those who claim to “hear” vast differences in quality between modern AAC 256K streams and uncompressed.
I don’t claim to be an audiophile, and I don’t claim to hear vast differences.
But what are you telling me, that you bought into Sonos but don’t care about the audio quality? Or that you genuinely believe heavily compressed music sounds the same as CD quality? If you are going to rely on compressed audio from now own, what’s the point of Sonos? Just buy half a dozen Echo Dots and plug the line out into your various speakers around the house. The quality will be the same, job done for a fraction of the cost.
You are welcome to listen to whatever you want, but don’t use the words HIFI when talking about compressed music as it makes you sound foolish.
Andrew
Always amused by those who claim to “hear” vast differences in quality between modern AAC 256K streams and uncompressed.
I don’t claim to be an audiophile, and I don’t claim to hear vast differences.
But what are you telling me, that you bought into Sonos but don’t care about the audio quality? Or that you genuinely believe heavily compressed music sounds the same as CD quality? If you are going to rely on compressed audio from now own, what’s the point of Sonos? Just buy half a dozen Echo Dots and plug the line out into your various speakers around the house. The quality will be the same, job done for a fraction of the cost.
You are welcome to listen to whatever you want, but don’t use the words HIFI when talking about compressed music as it makes you sound foolish.
Andrew
Long time Sonos user and infrequent poster but I'm going to add my opinion on one of the many threads on this topic here...
I think the new UI is pants (inefficient, garish, etc...) and Sonos need to seriously consider their direction if they want me to keep this system.
To preempt any subsequent posts on this, I also really don't care if other people think this release is OK so please don't try and convince me otherwise; that's their opinion and I'm pleased for them but I (along with a majority of others one would surmise) disagree. Let's hope Sonos hires some decent developers and fix this and I'll see you all again on here some day!
I think the new UI is pants (inefficient, garish, etc...) and Sonos need to seriously consider their direction if they want me to keep this system.
To preempt any subsequent posts on this, I also really don't care if other people think this release is OK so please don't try and convince me otherwise; that's their opinion and I'm pleased for them but I (along with a majority of others one would surmise) disagree. Let's hope Sonos hires some decent developers and fix this and I'll see you all again on here some day!
Wow, that is rich coming from you.
I was trying to show somone round my Sonos setup last week, got stuck at one point and I bet they were thinking what a lot of effort to go through..
Didn't sell itself at all..
Didn't sell itself at all..
Out of interest, what was your previous "audiophile" set up?
I understand Specsavers offer a free hearing test. Maybe you should give them a try. No offence intended, as we all get older we lose a few kHz from the top end...
No offence taken; and I know I can't hear beyond 14 -15 kHz and I don't much care about that. There is nought to be done about it, leave alone test for this. And if hearing loss of this kind allows me to find the same pleasure as in the past in a 1 pair/ 1 pair + Sub, I see that loss as a blessing. Also because in that past, I was restricted to what I heard - it had to be good enough to be worthy of my "audiophile" kit, and available. Now, I don't much care: Robert Johnson sounds as good as Joe Bonamassa. Or Lester Young as good as Scott Hamilton, for another comparison. From lossless ripped CDs or from Apple Music/Google Play.
My last set up, since you ask, was:
1. Marantz KI Signature SACDP
2. Quad 99/909 amplification
3. Harbeth C7 speakers
4. Van den Hul interconnects and speaker cables.
With some power conditioners and isolation platforms throw in.
[/quote]
Does that apply to compressed lossless codecs? Or are they foolish too?
You can copy your library to Amazon if you were so inclined.[/quote]
Well, no — sorry I should have made the distinction between the two. I should have said lossy files and not compressed files.
I have looked at uploading music to Amazon but from what I understand the stream you get to download is still lossy and not the file you actually uploaded.
Don’t get me wrong I have no issues with lossy files, on a Play 3 or maybe even a 5 I probably couldn’t hear the difference. I mostly listen on my Connect Amp and there I can, that’s all. And I wouldn’t apply the term HIFI to those files as Chicks did.
Does that apply to compressed lossless codecs? Or are they foolish too?
You can copy your library to Amazon if you were so inclined.[/quote]
Well, no — sorry I should have made the distinction between the two. I should have said lossy files and not compressed files.
I have looked at uploading music to Amazon but from what I understand the stream you get to download is still lossy and not the file you actually uploaded.
Don’t get me wrong I have no issues with lossy files, on a Play 3 or maybe even a 5 I probably couldn’t hear the difference. I mostly listen on my Connect Amp and there I can, that’s all. And I wouldn’t apply the term HIFI to those files as Chicks did.
Michael, while the "Devs" developed the UI, very likely they had nothing to do with it's visual design and usability. At a company the size of Sonos, this is almost assuredly in the hands of UX/UI designers, who get sign-off/approval (and likely direction) from senior management.
At even the largest companies, it is pretty common for an extremely small group of people (or even a single individual) to make major decisions on UI design that devs are required to follow. Ideally that group or person is listening closely to user-feedback, observing users actually interacting with the software, and is "dogfooding" it. (Internal usage of the product first, within the company.) Easy for that not to happen though, for a variety of reasons.
I'm a developer/architect at a large company, 20K+ employees. For several years, all of our in-house developed UI's had to implement a UI framework the CIO had quasi-mandated, which was based on a single, obscure, atypical 3rd-party app he happened to love, which used a very non-conventional navigation for that time. We were not designing the apps with what was best for the user front-and-center, we had to design to make our managers and ultimately the CIO happy. When you have people at the top who have strong opinions on how something should be done, and the people under them who want to make them happy...you get the idea. If you have someone at the top giving a vision and direction like a Steve Jobs, you may have great results. Not always the cause though, obviously.
UI changes can trigger enormous polarization of opinion. i.e. Windows 8, iOS moving to a flat design vs skeuomorphism, etc. Looks like Sonos is trying to move the app to try to adhere to Apple's "Human Interface Guidelines". See https://developer.apple.com/ios/human-interface-guidelines/overview/themes/ I'd be curious to hear what someone experienced in developing using these guidelines thinks of the new app.
Anyway, speaking as a developer, that is my long-winded reply for what I could have written as 'probably not the fault of the devs...' 😃
At even the largest companies, it is pretty common for an extremely small group of people (or even a single individual) to make major decisions on UI design that devs are required to follow. Ideally that group or person is listening closely to user-feedback, observing users actually interacting with the software, and is "dogfooding" it. (Internal usage of the product first, within the company.) Easy for that not to happen though, for a variety of reasons.
I'm a developer/architect at a large company, 20K+ employees. For several years, all of our in-house developed UI's had to implement a UI framework the CIO had quasi-mandated, which was based on a single, obscure, atypical 3rd-party app he happened to love, which used a very non-conventional navigation for that time. We were not designing the apps with what was best for the user front-and-center, we had to design to make our managers and ultimately the CIO happy. When you have people at the top who have strong opinions on how something should be done, and the people under them who want to make them happy...you get the idea. If you have someone at the top giving a vision and direction like a Steve Jobs, you may have great results. Not always the cause though, obviously.
UI changes can trigger enormous polarization of opinion. i.e. Windows 8, iOS moving to a flat design vs skeuomorphism, etc. Looks like Sonos is trying to move the app to try to adhere to Apple's "Human Interface Guidelines". See https://developer.apple.com/ios/human-interface-guidelines/overview/themes/ I'd be curious to hear what someone experienced in developing using these guidelines thinks of the new app.
Anyway, speaking as a developer, that is my long-winded reply for what I could have written as 'probably not the fault of the devs...' 😃
Awesome. An audiophile argument challenging the way other people hear music. Those never happen.
Indeed. I'd be very surprised if any user testing has taken place for version 8. And if it did, some pointy haired higher-up must have decided to ignore the feedback.
While that's clearly what they are trying to do - and in doing so happily ignore android users - whoever is doing so has very little practical experience with usability.
If you look at the navigation guidelines for example it clearly states users should have a clear path and that it should be fast and easy to get where you want.
https://developer.apple.com/ios/human-interface-guidelines/app-architecture/navigation/
There's a clear consensus however that this has not been achieved, and that the navigation is cumbersome and inefficient (needless extra clicks, not sure where to go next, people being confused between the room selection and configuration, etc).
The reason for this is fairly obvious. Sonos decided to use a standard control (the tabbar) without properly questioning if it was fit for purpose (as quite some issues are a direct result of that choice). The guidelines clearly state though that you should only do so when possible, meaning it allows you to achieve a clear path, that's fast and easy to use, etc.
So if you can not achieve a user friendly app design with the standard controls you should look for something else (e.g almost every audio app uses a playbar although that isn't standard either). The previous navigation - warts and all - clearly struck a better balance in this regard (by using a standard android control).
If the message is a childish rant, then I am shooting the message, not the messenger. I offer valid and proven facts that people now love the 5.0 UI which was once slagged 10 times more than the current 8.0 release, and state that because of these facts, most of the complaints can be boiled down to familiarity and muscle memory. The overwhelming response to those facts has been personal attacks and cries for me to shut up, the loudest cry from the very poster I was replying to here.
The very, very few posters who have attempted to discuss the phenomenon I describe I have engaged with politely and respectfully. One poster even asked me for my actual opinion on Sonos' latest releases and I ripped them as bad as anyone here, sans the childish nonsense. But hey, one sees what they want to see.
Oh and by the way, I also can be seen in other threads helping hundreds of users with troubleshooting problems or buying decisions. If one spent any time outside the complaint threads, one would notice that.
The very, very few posters who have attempted to discuss the phenomenon I describe I have engaged with politely and respectfully. One poster even asked me for my actual opinion on Sonos' latest releases and I ripped them as bad as anyone here, sans the childish nonsense. But hey, one sees what they want to see.
Oh and by the way, I also can be seen in other threads helping hundreds of users with troubleshooting problems or buying decisions. If one spent any time outside the complaint threads, one would notice that.
I'm sure that there exists small bookshelf speakers that compete sonically (is that a word?) with Sonos, but I can't think of any smart speakers that have Alexa built in that may sound better.
I only bought a One because I wanted an Echo for controlling home automation, but don't like the insecurity of always on WiFi, and as far as I can tell, the One is unique in having wired Ethernet.
I was impressed with the sound quality and the novelty of calling out a song or genre without having to switch anything on or pick up a smartphone, so I bought another one to stereo pair, and I find the sound to be very good for the size, but I wouldn't call them audiophile speakers.
I only bought a One because I wanted an Echo for controlling home automation, but don't like the insecurity of always on WiFi, and as far as I can tell, the One is unique in having wired Ethernet.
I was impressed with the sound quality and the novelty of calling out a song or genre without having to switch anything on or pick up a smartphone, so I bought another one to stereo pair, and I find the sound to be very good for the size, but I wouldn't call them audiophile speakers.
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