Announcement: https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/
Now that Apple Music has joined the “lossless club”, can we please hear from Sonos as to whether this will be supported, and, if it will be, approximately when that may occur?
Thanks.
Absolutely to be honest I can hear no difference between lossy and lossless on my mid range hifi speakers system, mass market headphones/earbuds or using Sonos. They are simply not transparent enough.
I can completely believe that 98pc of the public are listening on mass market music devices and therefore can not tell the difference beitreten lossy and lissless. I most certainly can’t.
Transparent hi end hifi headphone are something else though. I can hear details I never knew was there before and there the effect is stunning. CD quality was originally. chosen for a reason Of course people only have a limited hearing range and no one in hifi claims otherwise so the arguments against hifi are spurious. It is how natural it sounds within human hearing range that matters. Here
you should listen to manufacturers whete Sonos freely admits that it is not hifi.it is an excellent lifestyle product. The sound is highly processed and distorted which sounds good on Sonos speakers which most people are satisfied with but it is not hifi which is fair enough because it is not designed sold or marketed as hifi so I can see why they see the whole lossless and hi res spurious as it is for the mass market who are not interested in hifi
I
I have the latest APPLE TV 4K connected to my LG TV and getting Dolby Atmos from the APPLE TV+, iTunes Movies, Netflix and Tidal contents. So just wonder if this means I can enjoy the Spatial Audio from Apple Music as well?
I have the latest APPLE TV 4K connected to my LG TV and getting Dolby Atmos from the APPLE TV+, iTunes Movies, Netflix and Tidal contents. So just wonder if this means I can enjoy the Spatial Audio from Apple Music as well?
Yes. See my post:
I do agree hi-res is a bit of a gimmick, there is so little true hi-res content, i.e. content mastered in the studio in that file format. Lossless (i.e. CD quality) is a much bigger deal here, Apple offering that at no cost is a great deal for consumers, like if you care go nuts and play that, if not then be happy and stick with AAC.
I agree with the hi res view; note though that the head of the Apple division that is putting out lossless is on record as saying that it sounds no better than AAC from the same master in a blind test. Which is perhaps why they are not charging extra for lossless…?
On the other hand, I hear that the lossless streams play louder than AAC, all other thing being the same. So why Apple also needs to resort to this louder sounds better chestnut of a trick is a bit of a mystery.
One of the alleged reasons that Apple can likely offer this at no price difference is that apparently Apple requires content that is to be included in Apple Music and also required content in iTunes to come in a “hi-res” master format. So, they already have all the content.
I don’t agree that they just play louder than AAC streams, one part of having music through a wired connection is that bass etc is just more pronounced delivered that way when using a decent DAC (ie not the one in the iPhone and most other phones).
Technical team from another manufacturer whose talking to Apple now saying Apple Music lossless should be availaible on AirPlay on 24/48 as soon as it is enabled which sounds promising. Would be nice to also have integrated into Sonos as other equipment users want but Sonos app very basic compared to Apple app So with lossless incoming on AirPlay and hi res already available via USB cable with Apple Music excellent UI and Music algorithms at no extra cost my glass is more than half Full. Sonos app integrated and hi res via WiFi would be nice to haves. More importantly as listen moreenjoying the subtle improvement in sound quality particularly between lossy and lossless. Although the difference in sound quality is small the impact on me getting into the Music is significant as the music just sounds more real and natural.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
I am sure that Sonos has a pretty good idea of how much of their user base is a subset of this 70 million number; while prioritising their actions and resource allocation, if there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that Sonos will be very mindful of its user base - existing as well as target - sliced and diced in every which way.
… since Apple doesn’t seem to have an API for casting, and it would make sense for the API used to be dictated by the device with less firmware resources.
I'm slightly confused by your commentary, as AirPlay (2 definitely, but I think even 1 could) is capable of operating both in what I would describe as a direct streaming mode (data flows from source device app to audio/video output target), and also being used in a handoff mode (data flows direct from 3rd party “internet” source to audio/video output target, source device app retains control for pause/play and progress feedback)
As far as I am aware Sonos Connect can do both too, for audio. Those using the Spotify app are using a handoff approach, I think?
(It seems unlikely that you’ll ever see Connect implemented in the Apple Music app on iOS, but you can use it to stream to a Chromecast device when running on Android.)
Generally I use Sonos’s own controller app because playback can be controlled from whatever device is to hand (phone, iPad, a computer). It can be frustratingly slow to catch up with what is playing sometimes, and the browsing experience is never as good as the music source’s native app, so I certainly understand why many don’t use it!
also being used in a handoff mode (data flows direct from 3rd party “internet” source to audio/video output target, source device app retains control for pause/play and progress feedback)
From what I have read here, this is possible only via Apple hardware like Apple TV.
You can get up to 24/48 with Qobuz on Sonos S2 app.
Just saying
I’ve found that (i) starting a stream on and iOS device or Mac via Apple Music and then (ii) sending that stream via Airplay to one Sonos device (in my case, the Beam in my living room), and then (iii) grouping the living room Beam with other Sonos devices in the house with the Sonos app works well. (Once I’ve used it a bit more, I hope to be able to add “and reliably.”)
Songs that are lossless are indicated as lossless in Apple Music as they play, at 24bit/44.1Khz, and on the Sonos app the entire “group” states “Started from Airplay.”
I’m using both Airplay (for the first stream to my Beam) and Sonos (to group and play music on all other devices in the group) because when I used just Airplay to connect to all devices, the connection was unstable (and just stopped, randomly, as Airplay tends to do). Grouping devices through Sonos seems much quicker and more stable than using Airplay to send to multiple devices.
As a further experiment, I have a Libratone Zipp (1st Gen), which was upgraded to Airplay 2. So, for kicks, I added that device to the Airplay stream (so (i) Airplay is sending from my MacBook to the living room Beam and the Libratone Zipp, and (ii) Sonos is then grouping the Airplay stream from my Beam with Sonos speakers in a few other rooms). Shockingly, it worked -- for a few minutes -- then the Libratone Airplay connection dropped.
Bottom line: I think I have Apple Music lossless (24/44.1) working on Sonos devices all around the house. Apple Music is reporting that the stream is lossless, and it all sounds great. But really, who knows? ;-). I’ll run this all day and report back if it stops working.
So Apple have released a support page clarifying what we already knew, lossless doesn’t work via Bluetooth. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183
Still no mention of AirPlay though. I’ve read various snippets, including something from Cambridge Audio, that AirPlay streams at a lossless bit rate but it still seems to be a secret as far as Apple are concerned. Would like to see something official that AirPlay doesn’t compress audio before transmission.
I’ve found that (i) starting a stream on and iOS device or Mac via Apple Music and then (ii) sending that stream via Airplay to one Sonos device (in my case, the Beam in my living room), and then (iii) grouping the living room Beam with other Sonos devices in the house with the Sonos app works well. (Once I’ve used it a bit more, I hope to be able to add “and reliably.”)
Songs that are lossless are indicated as lossless in Apple Music as they play, at 24bit/44.1Khz, and on the Sonos app the entire “group” states “Started from Airplay.”
I’m using both Airplay (for the first stream to my Beam) and Sonos (to group and play music on all other devices in the group) because when I used just Airplay to connect to all devices, the connection was unstable (and just stopped, randomly, as Airplay tends to do). Grouping devices through Sonos seems much quicker and more stable than using Airplay to send to multiple devices.
As a further experiment, I have a Libratone Zipp (1st Gen), which was upgraded to Airplay 2. So, for kicks, I added that device to the Airplay stream (so (i) Airplay is sending from my MacBook to the living room Beam and the Libratone Zipp, and (ii) Sonos is then grouping the Airplay stream from my Beam with Sonos speakers in a few other rooms). Shockingly, it worked -- for a few minutes -- then the Libratone Airplay connection dropped.
Bottom line: I think I have Apple Music lossless (24/44.1) working on Sonos devices all around the house. Apple Music is reporting that the stream is lossless, and it all sounds great. But really, who knows? ;-). I’ll run this all day and report back if it stops working.
I’ve also had success using this method over multiple days. However, when you tap the lossless badge on the Apple Music app on the track page it will display whatever the maximum bit depth and sampling rate is available for the particular track (if you have high res lossless enabled in Apple Music settings). This means that if a song is available on Apple Music in 24 bit, 192 kHz, for example, it will display that. Obviously that is not being transmitted to the Sonos speaker over Airplay 2 in that format so I still cannot tell what happens in that scenario — is it 16 bit, 24 bit, 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, etc.? I agree it sounds phenomenal and I do believe I hear a big difference in fidelity than with the 256 AAC going with the native Sonos app for Apple Music, so I guess I should not care, but I am just really curious if I am getting CD quality or higher. Hoping for confirmation and/or official support for 24 bit, 48 kHz over Airplay 2 soon!
Thanks as I’m curious. That is what I’m doing as well. But from what I’ve read Airplay only currently goes up to 16 bit 44KHZ in theory but is currently downsampling to AAC on its own Home pod according to Apple and is also currently only playing as AAC on Airplay according to another manufacturer whatever the Apple app says.
I understand Airplay will play at 16/44 when iOS 15 is released. I prefer the direct Apple app interface but using Sonos is more stable so would be good if Apple and Sonos eventually allow 24/48 on Sonos. So currently only way to get lossless on Apple is via wired lightning connection up to 24/48 or via the camera kit adapter and USB to a suitably equipped DAC beyond 24/48. Accordingly, lossless is not currently available on Sonos until Airplay software updated to 16/44. Apple and Sonos will need to work togther to go beyond 16/44. Presumably Apple will look to upgrage Airplay at some point and also partner with maunfacturers as would be strange to offer content without the hardware to easily play it. Hopefully Sonos will partners at least up to 24/48. Meanwhile I will just play more of my music direct from Apple Music to DACs via USB until Sonos hopefully get on board with the market transition by the music streaming service providers. Just as Sonos wsa born out of new technology developments it will Kodak if it doesn’t adapt.
I don’t agree that they just play louder than AAC streams, one part of having music through a wired connection is that bass etc is just more pronounced delivered that way when using a decent DAC (ie not the one in the iPhone and most other phones).
Why would Apple, who offer both streams, themselves say that lossless sounds no different from AAC? In blind tests?
Interesting. Thanks. I was a true believer but maybe it is all in my head... Could have sworn playing lossless on Apple Music app and then switching to Airplay to Sonos produced a fuller soundstage than native Apple Music app. This now suggests that I’m listening to the same thing if Airplay is downsampling to lossy 256 AAC right? Bummer I’m not even getting CD quality. Maybe because the source file starts as high res before the Airplay downsample it still produces a better sound compared to a file that comes off Apple’s servers as lossy to begin with? I think someone else was (passionately) making that point too.
Thanks as I’m curious. That is what I’m doing as well. But from what I’ve read Airplay only currently goes up to 16 bit 44KHZ in theory but is currently downsampling to AAC on its own Home pod according to Apple and is also currently only playing as AAC on Airplay according to another manufacturer whatever the Apple app says.
According to a number of articles published in the last few days Airplay to HomePod does work for lossless, if done in a certain way:
https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/09/ios-14-6-airplay-lossless-homepod/
I’m hoping that when I send via Airplay to my Beam, it’s working the same way and I’m actually getting lossless.
Me too! I know I should just be happy that it sounds amazing and no up charge from Apple for this but I just like the chase of getting the best stream possible through Sonos and convincing myself it sounds even better (as I’ve invested a ton inside and outside my home with landscape speakers to Amps and Ports and the like). So I’m fully committed to both Sonos and Apple at this point and love both companies. I just wish they’d merge already!!!
AAC is a well regarded lossy format so differences will be subtle at best. Apple always insisted on higher quality original as it was clear that bandwidth and memery would improve over time. Benefit should be Apple digital masters as recorded to be played on better quality equipment. A lot of popular music sounds awful on revealing Hi-Fi as it was recorded to sound goid on low fidelity equipment.
i understand allowing Airplay to play 16/44 is a simple software tweak. Getting Apple to upgrade Airplay further and Apple Bluetooth which for me is poor quality will take time to match competition. Likewise will take time sind willing for Apple and Sonos to collaborate. But just as it was inevitable that Apple needed to react to Amazon and Spotify I think it is inevitable that Sonos will have to react at some point.
Living with Apple Music lossless
i don’t want to listen to lossy files anymore on hifi don’t notice difference listening on Sonos or out and about
24 bit recordings bit sound better than 16 but on hifi beyond that not convinced
Bits might be bits but in practice Sonos is not a good enough source for good hifi Playing Apple Music lossless files from iPhone rather than via Sonos has been difference between wanting to listen occasionally and at every opportunity Sonos for everyday use round house absolutely For focused listening to hi fi just no I was really missing out big time using Sonos as hi fi source
so in conclusion I think whether Sonos get Apple Music lossless is irrelevant it isn’t revealing enough Most of my casual listening will be on Sonos but for a hifi streamer I will be looking elsewhere given the dramatic sound quality difference
Thanks. Did see that but technical team at another manufacturer says Airplay only plsying AAC. Histotrically airplay only had AAC to play so was programmed to play AAC but Airplay is capable of playing 16/44 do hopefully shouldn’t take long to reprogramme the IOS software so that AirPlay plays 16/44.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
I’m lead to believe it will just be an software update of Airplay 2, not a new version altogether, like what apple done when moving streaming to 4k on Apple TV. The capability has always been there it’s just been capped.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though. The most logical time to announce this would be WWDC in June but Lossless doesn’t launch until then either and already says for anything higher than 24/48 you need an external DAC physically attached, which would contradict being able to do it via AirPlay.
Also, is Sonos’ 24/48 limitation physical or in software?
i understand allowing Airplay to play 16/44 is a simple software tweak.
If I have a song on my hard drive ripped in 16/44.1 ALAC, and I send that song via Airplay 2 to my Airplay-enabled Denon receiver (or, for that matter, my Airplay-enabled Sonos speaker), are you suggesting that Airplay downsamples that ALAC stream to AAC? I’ve been under the impression (for years) that Airplay was a method to stream CD-quality music losslessly. If Airplay downsamples CD-quality files to AAC, then it’s no better than Bluetooth.
Im merely repeating another manufacturer technical team. So i ripped all my CDs onto iTunes a ALAC files and then Sonos cleverly automatically picks them up in my library and there should play at16/44 directly on Sonos. But they would only stream on Sonos via AirPlay from Apple Music on my Apple device as AAC.
Apple is silent about AirPlay on this Point but the software engineers at another manufacturer suggest it should be straightforward for Apple to Programme to play 16/44 on their Next software release. They think the whole announcement was rushed for marketing event so the situation is very Dynamic so Situation changing very quickly. Apple Music only appeared for me at start of week and I see loads more content every day so whatever was doing or doing now don’t suspect will take Long either way. Sonos we know not so rapid.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
I’m lead to believe it will just be an software update of Airplay 2, not a new version altogether, like what apple done when moving streaming to 4k on Apple TV. The capability has always been there it’s just been capped.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though. The most logical time to announce this would be WWDC in June but Lossless doesn’t launch until then either and already says for anything higher than 24/48 you need an external DAC physically attached, which would contradict being able to do it via AirPlay.
Also, is Sonos’ 24/48 limitation physical or in software?
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though.
Can you airplay 4k video to multiple endpoints at the same time and have them play in sync? My guess is that you can’t. When streaming a video to a single source, you have the luxary of using a rather huge buffer to allow for changes in transmission speeds etc. Even then, you can temporarily stop the stream when the buffer runs empty and restart without issue. That is not the case with multiroom audio. While the amount of data is much smaller, you can’t have as large of a buffer, and you have to have all the device coordinate to play in sync. If one of the endpoints losing the connection, you can’t just pause everything to let it catch up, it has to stop playing and rejoin everything else, etc.
In short, you need to have a much more solid network to do multiroom audio in an acceptable way then you do to stream a video to a single source.
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