Announcement: https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/
Now that Apple Music has joined the “lossless club”, can we please hear from Sonos as to whether this will be supported, and, if it will be, approximately when that may occur?
Thanks.
Roon manage it quite well
Roon sends video streams to multiple endputs in sync? The point was that if you can stream 4k video, than you can stream hires audio. My counterpoint was that it having to play the stream at multiple endpoints in sync was a big factor.
My point is that Roon manages to send large audio files in sync to multiple end points with no issues.
Roon manage it quite well
Roon sends video streams to multiple endputs in sync? The point was that if you can stream 4k video, than you can stream hires audio. My counterpoint was that it having to play the stream at multiple endpoints in sync was a big factor.
My point is that Roon manages to send large audio files in sync to multiple end points with no issues.
Ok, great. Doesn’t change my point though in comparison to video streaming vs audio streaming in a multiroom settings.
I don’t know much about the Roon, but I would guess that they use a much larger buffer than Sonos does. And they can get away with that since they don’t stream any ‘live’ sources from an aux input or TV. That would make the job a lot easier, I would think.
I can definitely hear the difference between playing lossless via the Apple Music app on my MacBook connected to my DAC via USB compared to playing the same song on the Port. This is my workaround at the moment and it works pretty well. From a convenience point of view I would prefer Sonos to implement lossless Apple Music via the app so I can use it on the Port instead. Let’s hope they can get this sorted soon.
As long as you remember to set the bit output in the midi app then you should be in better shape this way. But, I don't know if Sonos outputs lossless (cd quality) as standard when using Apple Music. Apple may get round to making AM better to implement after iOS15 and Music Kit roll out.
Nothing is ever Sonos’s responsibility. Not SMB 1, not the bugs in Alexa control, not the Roam battery life debacle.
So of course we need to “ask Apple.”
You could be right. But, my understanding is all the audio manufacturers have their hands tied and must wait for Apple.
I understand from Apple that Apple TV should play lossless at 16/48 Also understand if you have a 16/44 source direct on Sonos it will play 16/44 on other grouped devices so 16/44 soon ...
So with my Apple TV connected via HDMI to a television with an attached Sonos beam, I should (assuming the track is lossless) be getting at least 16/44.1 on the Beam -- and if I use Sonos (not Airplay, but Sonos) to create a group with my other Sonos devices, shouldn't I have full house lossless audio today?
I can’t hear the difference between ALAC lossless and AAC lossy files on Sonos equipment let alone Hi-Res so suspect it is just marketing whcih is still relevant given tthe move of the main music streamer services to hi-res. Personally it needs some hign end equipment before I can hear the difference between lossy and lossless.24 bit files do sound better on hifi but suspect they are just better original recordings and i can’t hear the difference with hi res sample rates on hifi. So personally don’t see any benefit between lossy and lossless on Sonos let alone hi res but dramatic improvement in listening pleasure on hifi. My conclusion is it just isn’t relevant on Sonos from a listening poin tof view because it isn’t hifi but that is absolutely no criticism of Sonos because it doesn’t claim to be hifi. . .
Equipment is nice and all that, but the mastering of the file and your listening setup (room, how you are listening e.g. doing housework and its on in in the background) is a lot more important. Crappy mastering makes hi-res sound meh, great mastering can make cd quality awesome (I used to be a member to B&W Society of Sound and the mastering on those albums was just fantastic so cd quality sounded fab). Great speakers sound poor in a room with lots of surfaces that reflect sound etc. or big floor standers with no room to breathe etc. sound bad too. I do agree hi-res is a bit of a gimmick, there is so little true hi-res content, i.e. content mastered in the studio in that file format. Lossless (i.e. CD quality) is a much bigger deal here, Apple offering that at no cost is a great deal for consumers, like if you care go nuts and play that, if not then be happy and stick with AAC.
I do agree hi-res is a bit of a gimmick, there is so little true hi-res content, i.e. content mastered in the studio in that file format. Lossless (i.e. CD quality) is a much bigger deal here, Apple offering that at no cost is a great deal for consumers, like if you care go nuts and play that, if not then be happy and stick with AAC.
I agree with the hi res view; note though that the head of the Apple division that is putting out lossless is on record as saying that it sounds no better than AAC from the same master in a blind test. Which is perhaps why they are not charging extra for lossless…?
On the other hand, I hear that the lossless streams play louder than AAC, all other thing being the same. So why Apple also needs to resort to this louder sounds better chestnut of a trick is a bit of a mystery.
I really am not sure as not familiar with Apple TV and beam but as I read it that shouldwork. Apple TV does play lossless according to Apple - just need to switch it on in the Apple App then if you have a direct connection to Sonos Beam it should automatically transmit the signal to the beam at 16/48 and then the beam should be able to group with out Sonos products at 16/48
I don't get Atmos with the Beam (it's down converted to DD 5.1), but I do have a few rooms that have Beam-based Sonos systems and when I group them all Sonos indicates they are all streaming DD 5.1 - so I seen to be getting not only full house lossless (when the source is lossless) but full house DD 5.1 (when the source is Atmos). I realize that what I've done here is to bypass Airplay (and its limitations) entirely.
Begs the Question… Why did we just obsolete our old Sonos kit and upgrade to S2 if no one will be able to hear the difference ?
Maybe time to dig out those old Play 5’s and downgrade everything to S1
I feel an email coming on to Sonos support…...
yes i think you have figured out tthe only way to play Apple lossless on Sonos currently given that not on Airplay yet, not intergrated into Sonos and no USB input on connect/port - sorry Sonos but I’m struggling to think of a worst spec on any Hi_Fi streamer on the market than the Port. To be fair the current hopefully short term lack of Airplay support also applies to other manufacturers and Sonos seems to be the only maunfacturer with Apple intergrated in their own App but then the lack of USB input is special to Sonos. Nope. Still can’t think os a worst specced hi-fi streamer on the market than the Port - a hi-fi streamer than is meant to connect to hi-fi but has none of the functionality of every other hi-fi streamer on the market. It seems like they completely ignored the market and competition and as demonstrated by Apple with lossless and hi-res not even a tech giant can do that susstainably
Hi Res on Sonos is much more a marketing check the box thing; S2 is meant to allow other advances, probably more for the sound for TV side of things.
I can’t hear the difference between ALAC lossless and AAC lossy files on Sonos equipment let alone Hi-Res so suspect it is just marketing whcih is still relevant given tthe move of the main music streamer services to hi-res. Personally it needs some hign end equipment before I can hear the difference between lossy and lossless.24 bit files do sound better on hifi but suspect they are just better original recordings and i can’t hear the difference with hi res sample rates on hifi. So personally don’t see any benefit between lossy and lossless on Sonos let alone hi res but dramatic improvement in listening pleasure on hifi. My conclusion is it just isn’t relevant on Sonos from a listening poin tof view because it isn’t hifi but that is absolutely no criticism of Sonos because it doesn’t claim to be hifi. . .
My point is that Roon manages to send large audio files in sync to multiple end points with no issues.
This is news to me and interesting, and it prompted me to open this thread:
I don't think my method works for streaming lossless around the house -- what it does is stream Dolby Digital 5.1 around the house. It sounds great, particularly on what started out as Atmos content - but DD 5.1 is still lossy, so lossless tracks are still being compressed. I don't know if that's because my TV lacks eARC or some other limitation, but the Apple TV seems to send both lossless and Atmos in DD 5.1. So, close but no cigar -- and still waiting for Apple and Sonos to fix the Sonos Apple Music app.
I only hope and wish that it is true that people will no longer continually try to promote the absurd position that there couldn’t possibly be anything that might possibly sound better to some people than lossy on Sonos.
I fully understand and accept that some people are unable to understand and accept that some people may have different equipment and different Personal listening experiences. Just like people prefer different music Genres there is no absolute right or wrong. I’m merely suggesting that some people may prefer to try the sound of a cheaper USB cable on some systems. Great for me but might not do anything for others. It is not vaccines or Afghanistan it is merely about being open minded enough that other peoples might have different experiences and open enough to try them and see if it works for them rather than trying to limit people’s views and experiences.
Yep couldn’t agree more, music and listening is very personal experience. I really don’t care when people say I’ve listened on my x or y and so don’t waste your time, I’d give people a chance to decide for themselves
Just starting to experiment with listening to Apple Music lossless as historically all my music library is on Apple from ripped CDs, iTunes and Apple Music. As I currently understand should be able to play to lossless but not hi res via airplay but not yet on S2. Not doing anything for me on Sonos speakers but playing some stuff on reference headphone amp/dac felt really good.
Somewhat Strange that Apple always invested in high quality library but not how to play it. Bandwidths and Amazon HD has changed game. The only way for hi res from phone is via USB adapter and cable which have on order as curious and not massive investment. Not ideal though and Apple will need to introduce new Airplay codex and new hardware will be required to play it. seems direction of travel. I see no benefit on Sonos speakers but would be good to have a hi res apple compatible port
Listening to Apple Music lossless some more on hifi via USB cable is sounding way better than Sonos connect. Just gone up a level. Cable also a lot cheaper than a port so definitely the best way to connect Apple Music to Hi-Fi until if and when Sonos comes up with a hi res port upgrade that doesn’t distort the sound.
But for those that enjoy good sound quality then you will not want to listen to lossy on good hifi once you have heard lossless.
I don't agree with this, and my past includes what most people would classify as excellent audio equipment. And sources that included plenty of lossless and lossy rips from the same CD. I have heard no difference.
The head of Apple Music is just the latest to hew to this opinion. You may of course be hearing things that even he, the provider of the service, and his team, do not.
We may be waiting a while if ever for Apple on Sonos App as it would require agreement and development by both Apple and Sonos. . Other manufacturer forums are complaining why can’t they have Apple integrated when Sonos does but currently Apple preferred appraoch is to offer Apple Music over Airplay. I prefer the Apple app personally but Sonos is more stable. I understand as above Airplay can play 16/44 currently so expect that will be available on Apple Music with the next software update. Also sounds like Airplay is capable of 24/48 so will come later and then hopefully on Sonos. I expect more Apple compatible hardware further down the line like say an Apple TV with hi res and more Dolby Atmos/Lossless hardware as only way Apple can make money out of this but in practice USB to external DAC is fine for now and if anyone can hear a subtle difference it won’t be on Sonos. Access to better quality recordings designed to be heard on more transparent systems is the real benefit.
I can’t hear the difference on Sonos equipment but it’s a subtle difference that makes a fantastic difference to listening pleasure on good quality hifi.
And while I am disenchanted with Sonos corporate behaviour and the availability of equally good options to have decided to replace my Sonos kit once the hardware dies in future with those options, I certainly have not changed my mind about my assessment of Sonos as good quality hifi - once it is set up with the same care as such kit. Sonos kit is designed and built to very high standards and often to better standards than visible in HiFi brands such as NAD. It is sold at lower price points because the scale of manufacture for Sonos is orders of magnitude larger than available to many HiFi makers, and that gives Sonos a massive advantage in cost structures. In addition, the design is such that no money is wasted on expensive fripperies like heavy cabinets, speaker enclosures or backlit VU meters, that do nothing to enhance sound quality delivered, but pander only to senses other than the organs of hearing, the ears.
This lossy/lossless thing - or the lack thereof - where Apple Music is concerned is giving Sonos user unnecessary grief, but that isn't because Sonos is not good enough to show up the difference. There is no controlled blind test on record that does this either, with any kind of kit.
Sigh. I refuse to waste more words.
What’s the current quality of Apple music on Sonos? Based on the information from the article, sounds as if Apple is only offering above CD quality on Apple devices...which is pretty typical of Apple.
To start listening to Lossless Audio, subscribers using the latest version of Apple Music can turn it on in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. Here, they can choose different resolutions for different connections such as cellular, Wi-Fi, or for download. Apple Music’s Lossless tier starts at CD quality, which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz (kilohertz), and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz and is playable natively on Apple devices. For the true audiophile, Apple Music also offers Hi-Resolution Lossless all the way up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.1
Does anyone know if the LINE IN signal on the Sonos Amp (latest gen) goes through ADC/DAC processing steps before it’s sent to the speakers?
My sense is yes, since you can stream it through the house and it needs to delay the local audio to sync with the rest of the network. i.e. the analog input can’t be a simple pass through to the speakers.
But I’d love to be proven wrong as it could be a viable solution for hi-res Apple Music until support is built into the Sonos software.
Thanks does sound like 24bit 48 kHz is doable on Sonos given will from Apple and Sonos and suspect will come at some point. Almost as if Sonos introduced S2 with this in mind. Sonos are certainly no fools and they must talk.
Developing hi-res Apple compatible hardware is longer term but presumably where Apple is looking to make more money out of releasing lossless and hi res content which is increasing by the day. Whether Sonos will jump on that opportunity with new products I guess depends on backward compatibility issues but difficult to ignore with a mainstream player Apple offering hi res and even harder if Spotify match competition. With mainstream music services and hardware competitors offering hi res then Sonos presumably has to bite the bullet at some point what ever the technical arguments.
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