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Announcement: https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/

 

Now that Apple Music has joined the “lossless club”, can we please hear from Sonos as to whether this will be supported, and, if it will be, approximately when that may occur?

 

Thanks.

 

I’m not convinced it will sound any better than AAC played through the Sonos app, but it’s worth $30 to find out.

 

It won’t sound any better but not for the reasons you think. It has nothing to do with DAC quality. What you will be able to do though is use the Apple Music native app to play on Sonos. The downside is that your iDevice will be eating battery charge all the time that music is playing.

I have a couple of AEX units in a drawer, but it is the last bit that is stopping me from using them for this. It was easier for me to start using Spotify instead to meet my preference for a native app, which I find to be better than the interface inside the Sonos controller.


I am not sure what happens to music play when there is a phone call underway, but again, this won’t matter if the phone is not in use as such.


I am not sure what happens to music play when there is a phone call underway, but again, this won’t matter if the phone is not in use as such.

No SIM card so no problem. :)


… since Apple doesn’t seem to have an API for casting, and it would make sense for the API used to be dictated by the device with less firmware resources.


I'm slightly confused by your commentary, as AirPlay (2 definitely, but I think even 1 could) is capable of operating both in what I would describe as a direct streaming mode (data flows from source device app to audio/video output target), and also being used in a handoff mode (data flows direct from 3rd party “internet” source to audio/video output target, source device app retains control for pause/play and progress feedback)

As far as I am aware Sonos Connect can do both too, for audio. Those using the Spotify app are using a handoff approach, I think?

(It seems unlikely that you’ll ever see Connect implemented in the Apple Music app on iOS, but you can use it to stream to a Chromecast device when running on Android.) 

Generally I use Sonos’s own controller app because playback can be controlled from whatever device is to hand (phone, iPad, a computer). It can be frustratingly slow to catch up with what is playing sometimes, and the browsing experience is never as good as the music source’s native app, so I certainly understand why many don’t use it!


also being used in a handoff mode (data flows direct from 3rd party “internet” source to audio/video output target, source device app retains control for pause/play and progress feedback)

 

From what I have read here, this is possible only via Apple hardware like Apple TV. 


So Apple have released a support page clarifying what we already knew, lossless doesn’t work via Bluetooth. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

Still no mention of AirPlay though. I’ve read various snippets, including something from Cambridge Audio, that AirPlay streams at a lossless bit rate but it still seems to be a secret as far as Apple are concerned. Would like to see something official that AirPlay doesn’t compress audio before transmission.


What’s the current quality of Apple music on Sonos?  Based on the information from the article, sounds as if Apple is only offering above CD quality on Apple devices...which is pretty typical of Apple.  

Both of those statements are incorrect.


Still no mention of AirPlay though. I’ve read various snippets, including something from Cambridge Audio, that AirPlay streams at a lossless bit rate but it still seems to be a secret as far as Apple are concerned. Would like to see something official that AirPlay doesn’t compress audio before transmission.

AirPlay is lossless and I believe utilizes ALAC for transmitting audio. One of the audio mags tested AirPlay a few years back and showed that 16/44 PCM had bit-perfect transmission via AirPlay to an AirPort Express.

16/44 is not lossless.  That would be 192.  Airplay does use ALAC which is often called ALAC Lossless but 16/44 is not lossless.  I can’t see why Sonos wouldn’t do 16/44 or even better 24/48 with Apple Music since they claim they can use both formats. https://support.sonos.com/s/article/79?language=en_US

Apple shouldn’t have to do anything to work with Sonos so I don’t know why Sonos is saying contact Apple.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/

“Apple Music’s Lossless tier starts at CD quality, which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz (kilohertz), and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz and is playable natively on Apple devices. For the true audiophile, Apple Music also offers Hi-Resolution Lossless all the way up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.1”

Of course Apple is also calling 16/44 lossless.  It clearly isn’t.  Nothing is recorded or mastered at that level.

 


also being used in a handoff mode (data flows direct from 3rd party “internet” source to audio/video output target, source device app retains control for pause/play and progress feedback)

 

From what I have read here, this is possible only via Apple hardware like Apple TV. 

When using voice with HomePods music is also streamed from the internet not your device.


Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that. 

They are not doing that.  That is such significant change there would need to be an Airplay 3.  Apple actually documents Airplay 2 extremely well.

https://developer.apple.com/airplay/


Yep, it’s called lossless because it’s compared to cd quality which is considered the base standard. Anything above this level is considered hi res and specialist, opening up the debate of whether there is any point in the presence of frequencies the human ear can’t hear being in the recording. 


Likewise, really happy to beta test this functionality. Presumably, given the development with Qobuz, that implementation of higher res ALAC files to doable, if Apple give Sonos the nod.


I have the latest APPLE TV 4K connected to my LG TV and getting Dolby Atmos from the APPLE TV+, iTunes Movies, Netflix and Tidal contents. So just wonder if this means I can enjoy the Spatial Audio from Apple Music as well? 


I have the latest APPLE TV 4K connected to my LG TV and getting Dolby Atmos from the APPLE TV+, iTunes Movies, Netflix and Tidal contents. So just wonder if this means I can enjoy the Spatial Audio from Apple Music as well? 

Yes. See my post:

 


You can get up to 24/48 with Qobuz on Sonos S2 app. 

 

Just saying 


I have the latest APPLE TV 4K connected to my LG TV and getting Dolby Atmos from the APPLE TV+, iTunes Movies, Netflix and Tidal contents. So just wonder if this means I can enjoy the Spatial Audio from Apple Music as well? 

Yes. See my post:

 

Thanks! Yes I have tried last night and it’s phenomenal!! Filled the room and more interesting is when I grouped the speakers in the other rooms, I could feel it’s much better than before! :)


Just starting to experiment with listening to Apple Music lossless as historically all my music library is on Apple from ripped CDs, iTunes and Apple Music. As I currently understand should be able to play to lossless but not hi res via airplay but not yet on S2. Not doing anything for me on Sonos speakers but playing some stuff on reference headphone amp/dac felt really good. 
 

Somewhat Strange that Apple always invested in high quality library but not how to play it. Bandwidths and Amazon HD has changed game. The only way for hi res from phone is via USB adapter and cable which have on order as curious  and not massive investment. Not ideal though and Apple will need to introduce new Airplay codex and new hardware will be required to play it.   seems direction of travel. I see no benefit on Sonos speakers but would be good to have a hi res apple compatible  port 


Thanks does sound like 24bit 48 kHz is doable on Sonos given will from Apple and Sonos and suspect will come at some point. Almost as if Sonos introduced S2 with this in mind. Sonos are certainly no fools and they must talk. 
 

Developing hi-res Apple compatible hardware is longer term but presumably where Apple is looking to make more money out of releasing lossless and hi res content which is increasing by the day.  Whether Sonos will jump on that opportunity with new products I guess depends  on backward compatibility issues but difficult to ignore with a mainstream player Apple offering hi res and even harder if Spotify match competition. With mainstream music services and hardware competitors offering hi res then Sonos presumably has to bite the bullet at some point what ever the technical arguments. 


Not the greatest or clearest statement from Sonos. Apple Music lossless and hi-res has been out a few days so strange they can not say what the position is. 
 

I understand that can? Play lossless on airplay enabled Sonos devices but not on S2. I think  that is a similar situation for any hardware supplier. The apple app is far better than the Sonos app but I do believe that apple won’t grant Sonos access unlike Spotify and tidal.because the more powerful apple likes to maintain complete control. Currently there is no way to play hi res on anything other than USB connection.  At the moment Apple has upped the software but currently there Apple doesn’t appear to have any ideal hardware options or partners to take full advantage so it isn’t just Sonos. A camera adapter and usb cable is less than ideal so Apple also need to get their act together on hardware partnerships. 


Looking at the equivalent forum for another hardware streamer manufacturers there are literally hundreds of posts on this specific topic including numerous honest posts from the manufacturers technical department. I guess being niche they are more comfortable commenting than a large organisation like Sonos which I understand. 
 

The impression is that while AirPlay is capable of 24 bit 48khz currently only playing Lossy AAC even to its own HomePod devices on Airplay. Apple are planning to change Airplay software so it can at least play 16 bit 44 kHz which is relatively easy.  So this is down to Apple not Sonos. Sonos is only one that seems to have Apple Music via own app. Rest of manufacturers only on Airplay so Sonos is ahead   
 

 


The manufacturer is actively talking to Apple so surprised if Sonos isn’t. The impression is that Apple rushed this out because of Amazon and Spotify so content ahead of hardware.  It is only Tidal and Qubuz which is really open to integrating their software into manufacturers hardware. So the only way to play Apple lossless and hi res on other streamers is very USB. Apparently not m perfect set up but sound quality is very good. 


What is clear is that at least publicly Sonos is not interested in this topic as other manufacturers. And why should they be as their target audience isn’t. If sound quality is your priority then look to other manufacturers with tidal and qubuz. If like  me you want the best sound quality but the convenience options and UI of Sonos and Apple Music then will need patience for hardware to catch up with content. With lossless and hi res emblazoned on Apple Music content and due to become fully available by end of year surely only matter of time before hardware comes to market. Up to Sonos if they participate. Content market has changed. Will Sonos?  Meanwhile USB cable is way to go. 


Thanks but then isn’t that just the output from Apple Music and not necessarly the input into Sonos as I’m reading Airplay is only currently tramitting at AAC ? Don’t think Sonos shows what is playing Guess would need to play over Airplay to a device that show what is actually playing eg via Connect or Port to a Dac/ device which shows what rate is being played.    


Thanks but then isn’t that just the output from Apple Music and not necessarly the input into Sonos as I’m reading Airplay is only currently tramitting at AAC ? Don’t think Sonos shows what is playing Guess would need to play over Airplay to a device that show what is actually playing eg via Connect or Port to a Dac/ device which shows what rate is being played.    

A Connect or Port would output digitally at 24/44.1, whatever the source content.

Airplay uses ALAC according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPlay#Protocols. Clocking the bitrate I measured around 500-550kbps which sounds about right for losslessly compressed 16/44.1 or 16/48. It’s a bit less than typical FLAC 16/44.1 stereo content, but that might be explained by a cleverer compression algorithm for ALAC, maybe using mid/side encoding.


Thanks that would explain why my dac always shows 44lhz from Connect what ever I throw at it. Still don’t really understand what th current rate on Airplay is to be honest and what it will be and what currently Airplay does and will play on Sonos speakers. Apple only says that only playing AAC on Airplay to HomePod and that is what other manufacturers are saying but there will be upgrade to allow HomePod to play lossless so presume will come to Sonos at some point 
 

Curious what get via USB cable when arrives. HiFi dealer not convinced so recommended basic USB cable so not significant investment.