Announcement: https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/
Now that Apple Music has joined the “lossless club”, can we please hear from Sonos as to whether this will be supported, and, if it will be, approximately when that may occur?
Thanks.
That should work. A very niche solution though. Curious what Apple will do. They always specified hi res content from providers. The implementation of lossless and hi res on Apple Music is excellent. It sounds really good and I much prefer the Apple UI and alogoriths are excellent having trialled all other streaming services My radio station and new music really. Sound like personally created for me.
But all other services are better integrated with other manufacturers hardware. Given their reluctance to share API then AirPlay upgrade is my guess.
Just tried Apple Music Lossless from iphone via camera connection kit and USB cable to h-Fi DAC. iphone didn’t recongise the DAC I use for speakers wihich shows sample rate but was plug and play with my headphone DAC which doesn’t display sample rates. Not really into the lossless/hi res debate but subjectively just switching between different rates on iphone lossless did sound not dramatically but noiticeably less compressed, clearer and more natural on lossless and a little more clearer and natural on hi res. Not so noticeable that you could independently say that is a lossy, lossless or hi.res but subtle improvements particularly between lossy and lossless when switching between rates on Apple Music. So personally I would say it would be good when Apple Music lossless hopefully comes to Sonos but full hi-res would be overkill on Sonos. But worth adapter and USB cable for hi-res on hi-fi and i will also buy a portable DAC for my iphone as does sound notieably better.
Thanks but then isn’t that just the output from Apple Music and not necessarly the input into Sonos as I’m reading Airplay is only currently tramitting at AAC ? Don’t think Sonos shows what is playing Guess would need to play over Airplay to a device that show what is actually playing eg via Connect or Port to a Dac/ device which shows what rate is being played.
Thanks but then isn’t that just the output from Apple Music and not necessarly the input into Sonos as I’m reading Airplay is only currently tramitting at AAC ? Don’t think Sonos shows what is playing Guess would need to play over Airplay to a device that show what is actually playing eg via Connect or Port to a Dac/ device which shows what rate is being played.
A Connect or Port would output digitally at 24/44.1, whatever the source content.
Airplay uses ALAC according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPlay#Protocols. Clocking the bitrate I measured around 500-550kbps which sounds about right for losslessly compressed 16/44.1 or 16/48. It’s a bit less than typical FLAC 16/44.1 stereo content, but that might be explained by a cleverer compression algorithm for ALAC, maybe using mid/side encoding.
Yep, it’s called lossless because it’s compared to cd quality which is considered the base standard. Anything above this level is considered hi res and specialist, opening up the debate of whether there is any point in the presence of frequencies the human ear can’t hear being in the recording.
Thanks that would explain why my dac always shows 44lhz from Connect what ever I throw at it. Still don’t really understand what th current rate on Airplay is to be honest and what it will be and what currently Airplay does and will play on Sonos speakers. Apple only says that only playing AAC on Airplay to HomePod and that is what other manufacturers are saying but there will be upgrade to allow HomePod to play lossless so presume will come to Sonos at some point
Curious what get via USB cable when arrives. HiFi dealer not convinced so recommended basic USB cable so not significant investment.
Just for posterity in case anyone missed it as I see a few speculating…
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
My understanding is AirPlay 2 can support upto 24/48 but at the moment is capped at 16/44. I don’t think Spotify are going to offer beyond cd quality. Again it will be interesting to see what implementation of native Spotify support sonos will give when it launches. Also we will have to see what way Spotify connect will work with Sonos and other devices. I think if Spotify stay at 16/44 than the connect feature should be ok. But will Sonos say it’s up to Spotify to implement the audio improvements natively they probably will. Finally my understanding is that to go beyond 24/48 with Apple Music will be a usb dac job only from a mac or iPhone/iPad. Etc (yes Android supports Apple Music but android resamples all signals being output over usb). I have no idea about Amazon music as have never used it due to it not being available here. Certainly interesting times ahead.
it would be much better for Sonos to be proactively working with Apple as much as possible to make this happen and to communicate to the Sonos community exactly what Sonos is doing in this regard - v.s. simply saying it is up to Apple.
I agree, except that I would not use the word “exactly” in the quote. Sonos can do a better job on this than what it does today without at the same time going the whole hog and letting customers be privy to all the details of their interactions with Apple, or to make a commitments to time frames for implementation until they are sure these can be met.
Saying - it is all up to Apple - sounds silly. IMO. Sonos defenders will disagree.
The question of how stable wireless streaming of data dense HD music files will be, especially in grouped mode, is something that not many users are anticipating though. In many cases stable music play will need grouped units to be ethernet wired to the network. So, be careful what you wish for. And, for something of unproven audible benefit.
Airplay 2 seems interesting though, assuming (since I don't have it) that it delivers stable music play today. The interesting thing is that on the phone side, one can obtain the HD streams, while for in home distribution these are down sampled to files as dense as CD format files, presenting a lesser challenge for wireless distribution. With the same sound being delivered because the downsampling will still allow all the benefits of remastered to a higher standard HD music to be heard.
I just ordered a (discontinued) Apple AirPort Express from eBay for $30. I plan to connect the analog out from the AirPort Express to the analog in on my Sonos Port. That should allow me to stream lossless Apple Music to every Sonos endpoint.
I still have my old iPhone 7, which I plan to wipe and use to stream Apple Music to the AirPort Express. I don’t think the DAC in the AirPort Express is the greatest and the resolution will be limited to CD quality, but that’s my solution for now. I’m not convinced it will sound any better than AAC played through the Sonos app, but it’s worth $30 to find out.
I also have a Meridian Explorer² DAC/headphone amp that handles signals up to 24/192. I can connect it directly to my phone using the USB camera kit. That setup could also be connected to the Port, but I will probably only use it for headphone listening.
I do have an Apple TV 4K connected to a Sonos Arc + Sub + Play:1 surround pair. I hope that there are some good Dolby Atmos titles to try out.
What’s the current quality of Apple music on Sonos? Based on the information from the article, sounds as if Apple is only offering above CD quality on Apple devices...which is pretty typical of Apple.
To start listening to Lossless Audio, subscribers using the latest version of Apple Music can turn it on in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. Here, they can choose different resolutions for different connections such as cellular, Wi-Fi, or for download. Apple Music’s Lossless tier starts at CD quality, which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz (kilohertz), and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz and is playable natively on Apple devices. For the true audiophile, Apple Music also offers Hi-Resolution Lossless all the way up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.1
That is completely wrong if you have read anything at all and it is not typical of Apple. Apple Music is on android and everywhere else they can think of to make money from services.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality.
Interesting and it suggests that there is much more to Airplay than what meets the eye.
All these gyrations could have been avoided if more Sonos speakers had line in jacks. Wire an iDevice and get the HD sound via the oldest, universal and widely accepted protocol - analog electrical signals - without anything having to be done by either company. Heard sound quality then is dependent just on speaker quality...
I finally got to listen to spatial audio on an IPhone+airpods pro, and that led me to do some reading on this new feature that led me to the linked interview with the head of Apple Services/Music, Eddy Cue.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/08/eddy-cue-spatial-audio-interview/
His comments seem spot on with respect to how - in his opinion - lossless cannot be distinguished from AAC lossy by over 98% of people including him, in a blind test. And where it can, in another interview, he notes that it takes very high quality headphones and a special 1 to 2 percent of people with the right ears - I suppose because otherwise room acoustics will wash away any very minute audible difference. So much for running after just more bits and bytes then…
His comments on spatial audio also seem to tally with my listening to comparison samples available on Apple Music - the difference is very audible and to an extent that I can see it surviving without headphones, as long as all the right kit is used downstream, in a domestic environment.
Now whether that different sound will be preferred to what is the existing presentation of stereo music as a sound stage in front of the listener will be a personal preference, and I am sure there are some that will not want to listen to music where it feels that one is standing on stage in the middle of the band. Others might prefer that new experience.
So although he uses HDTV as an analogy for how vast the difference is with spatial audio, no one that watches HDTV then ends up preferring the standard version. To that extent, the analogy may fail.
Yes I would fully agree there is no way I can hear the difference between lossless and lossy on Sonos and regular headphones/earbuds or outside
I have a very high quality headphone set up and moving to lossless and hi res is a subtle difference in sound quality which makes a dramatic difference in listening pleasure. It just sounds way less compressed and more lifelike but only with high quality headphones. I just skip the few remaining lossy filed and replace with lossless versions as they are now so disappointing in comparison. It may well be that the dramatic improvement in listening pleasure is also due to moving away from Sonos as the source as it simply isn’t a good enough source for quality hifi. But I would completely agree that it is a niche market currently so I can see why Sonos and Apple Music are not bothered about it. It is a shame though given the dramatic difference in listening pleasure.it really is a wow experience and a pity more people don’t get the opportunity to hear it
i would also agree the Dolby Atmos sounds more distinctly different but I’ve switched it off as to me sounds very forced and distorted and much prefer the high res versions of the files but that may well be different on other headphones more specifically designed for Dolby atoms.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
I’m lead to believe it will just be an software update of Airplay 2, not a new version altogether, like what apple done when moving streaming to 4k on Apple TV. The capability has always been there it’s just been capped.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
His comments on spatial audio also seem to tally with my listening to comparison samples available on Apple Music - the difference is very audible and to an extent that I can see it surviving without headphones, as long as all the right kit is used downstream, in a domestic environment.
Further to the above:
I agree with the Apple Music head, Eddy Cue, when he goes on record to say that there is no audible sound quality difference/gain in lossless v AAC lossy, except for the rare 1 or 2 percent of people with golden ears, when listening via high quality headphones. Based on my experience with audiophile - as in expensive - kit first, and then on Sonos which replaced it. And headphones are a product that isn't in the Sonos portfolio at this time, it must be noted.
Given that, this entire thread including its title is just white noise that masks the signal of what the thread really should be about - What will it take for Sonos to do spatial audio such that it is heard in a typical domestic environment in the manner it is designed to be heard?
This is going to much more than more bits and bytes and will have to include hardware that is delivering the sound into the room. I can't see the latest Sonos One, stereo paired, doing spatial audio successfully. Or even the 5 pair, for example.
I have no exposure to Sonos TV products, so I can't answer the question if that present hardware, if supplied and capable of playing spatial audio streams, are capable of delivering the spatial audio experience in the manner heard on the AirPods pro, to the room they are in. But that seems to be the important question to ask/discuss, instead of getting distracted by mere lossless audio and how to persuade Sonos to play it. All THAT will achieve is more of a burden on the home WiFi network.
I’m not convinced it will sound any better than AAC played through the Sonos app, but it’s worth $30 to find out.
It won’t sound any better but not for the reasons you think. It has nothing to do with DAC quality. What you will be able to do though is use the Apple Music native app to play on Sonos. The downside is that your iDevice will be eating battery charge all the time that music is playing.
I have a couple of AEX units in a drawer, but it is the last bit that is stopping me from using them for this. It was easier for me to start using Spotify instead to meet my preference for a native app, which I find to be better than the interface inside the Sonos controller.
There is no way I have golden ears. Just a very transparent headphone set up but absolutely true it is not a mass market product so 98pc probably will have never heard such a system so will never know how much better a proper hifi system with lossless can sound and frankly. probably don’t Care.
I certainly was not aware what a dramatic difference it could make until I treated myself to a Hi-Fi headphone set up during lockdown and only then when I switched to lossless and a better quality source than Sonos it probably is only 1-2pc of the market at most though. It is not the Sonos mass market for sure and I accept that lossless can’t be appreciated on Somos and I need to look elsewhere for a better quality source than Sonos for hifi listening.
98pc probably will have never heard such a system so will never know how much better a proper hifi system with lossless can sound and frankly.
What remains hilarious is that how many of the 2% still claim to hear differences from lossless even while using loudspeakers ( as opposed to headphones) in their homes to do so - never mind how proper HiFi the speakers or the rest of their system may even genuinely be.
The hilarious bit is that the man putting out lossless via his service says there is no difference to be heard on even such systems. Even by the 2%.
Now only if a equally placed purveyor of Hi Res audio, the other snake oil, was to say this….
I am not sure what happens to music play when there is a phone call underway, but again, this won’t matter if the phone is not in use as such.
I am not sure what happens to music play when there is a phone call underway, but again, this won’t matter if the phone is not in use as such.
No SIM card so no problem. :)
On Lossless, a copy/paste from the net:
QUOTE:
“The reality of lossless is: if you take 100 people and you take a stereo song in lossless and you take a song that’s been in Apple Music that’s compressed, I don’t know if it’s 99 or 98 can’t tell the difference. You can tell somebody, ‘Oh, you’re listening to a lossless [song],’ and they tell you, ‘Oh, wow. That sounds incredible.’ They’re just saying it because you told them it’s lossless and it sounds like the right thing to say, but you just can’t tell.”
— Eddy Cue, Apple’s SVP of Services (including Apple Music), on the reality of “lossless” digital music.
I’m sure this is all true — and in listening to the new lossless files for a few days, my ears believe it to be true as well (when I can get the streams to work, that is) — but it’s still amusing/surprising to hear Cue frame it this way at the launch of Apple’s offering.
:UNQUOTE
Let the games begin...
Likewise, really happy to beta test this functionality. Presumably, given the development with Qobuz, that implementation of higher res ALAC files to doable, if Apple give Sonos the nod.
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