Amazon Music HD/UHD Confusion

Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

54 replies

B

Yeah, I fully agree. CD quality is fine. But I pedantically wanted to know what I’m getting and why I can’t confirm I have what they both promise in their marketing? Hopefully someone somewhere in Sonos and/or Amazon will understand how helpful to end users it’d be to be a little bit more slick and transparent in this area. I appreciate your help.

ratty

It’s your choice of course, but personally I’d never let the HD/UHD issue stop me from listening to the tracks I want. It’ll be the same mastering come what may, and 16-bit depth is quite sufficient for final delivery in a domestic listening environment.

Me neither. There is no way you would be able to tell the two apart in a blind test.  Your dog may be able to, but he’s not telling.

For ultrasonics, yes. Do dogs also have a superhuman dynamic range?

bockersjv
Userlevel 7
Badge +21

Just to add that if you have a Gen 1 or 2 Sub attached to the speakers you will only ever get HD, despite what the compatibility page says.  This is an open bug.

K

 

As already noted, selecting music solely on the basis of whether it’s UHD vs HD makes no sense.

Not just that, there is also the uncalled for angst created by missing labels that comes in the way of enjoying the music.

I suspect that people carry over their experience of HD over DVD on the TV, where anyone can see and therefore desire the difference in quality to an extent that the labelling isn't even needed. But for audio, there is no audible difference brought in by the HD format over what has been delivered for decades now via CD quality. Or, in most cases, even by CD compressed down via codecs like Apple Lossy to 256 Kbps.

B

Not just that, there is also the uncalled for angst created by missing labels that comes in the way of enjoying the music.

I suspect that people carry over their experience of HD over DVD on the TV, where anyone can see and therefore desire the difference in quality to an extent that the labelling isn't even needed. But for audio, there is no audible difference brought in by the HD format over what has been delivered for decades now via CD quality. Or, in most cases, even by CD compressed down via codecs like Apple Lossy to 256 Kbps.

I’m on that spectrum for sure. I ditched Play 3’s for a separates system and Connect just to get UHD. I was well sold to by Amazon, did the check with Sonos etc. Anyway, I accept I can’t hear the difference, probably. I just wanted to know if I’m getting what was promised on the shiny websites, and I’m not. Despite meeting all the criteria. 

K

 I ditched Play 3’s for a separates system and Connect just to get UHD.

I just wanted to know if I’m getting what was promised on the shiny websites, and I’m not. 

If it is any consolation, your new separates speakers may be giving you better sound quality if they are acoustically superior to the 3 units - as they are likely to be. And if you don’t think you are getting what these shysters promised there is the chance to revert to a “ordinary” streaming service if the monthly fee is lower. To be fair to some, there may not even be a higher price charged, to whom the shyster term may not apply.

K

In Amazon parlance ‘HD’ is CD quality.

(The same goes for Sonos Radio ‘HD’.)

Oh yes, the lack of perceived difference allows these characters to now play fast and loose with even the definition of what is HD - Amazon pioneered that stunt, and Sonos copied them.

Can you imagine the uproar if DVD quality video was labelled as HD and sold for a higher price? 

M
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

Went looking for a CD quality chart, not an exact match for the above but close.

 

 

I can see why my SonosNet is happier passing 16 / 44.1 audio than 24 / 96 audio, about 1/3rd the data.


 

@Stanley_4these numbers look like mono bitrates to me. Is this table correct?


16 bits per sample x 44,1KHz samples per second = 705.6 Kbps of Mono
16 bits per sample x 44,1KHz samples per second = 705.6 Kbps x 2 channels = 1,411 Kbps Stereo
24 bits per sample x 48 KHz samples per second = 1.152 Kbps x 2 channels =  2,304 Kbps Stereo


I wanted to ask you people, do you hear the difference between HD (16 bit, 44.1 Kbps) and UHD (24 bit, 48 Kbps)? I certainly don't, and that's why I'm perfectly fine with HD.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
A

there are 2 version of the  Gen 2 Connect. Both are S2 compatible but only the newer version is compatible with Amazon Music Ultra HD . The Latest version of the Gen 2 Connect is the S15 version. B

 

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +6

 I ditched Play 3’s for a separates system and Connect just to get UHD.

I just wanted to know if I’m getting what was promised on the shiny websites, and I’m not. 

If it is any consolation, your new separates speakers may be giving you better sound quality if they are acoustically superior to the 3 units - as they are likely to be. And if you don’t think you are getting what these shysters promised there is the chance to revert to a “ordinary” streaming service if the monthly fee is lower. To be fair to some, there may not even be a higher price charged, to whom the shyster term may not apply.

But let’s go ahead and grant temporary shyster status for those who represented for months certain components of their equipment were capable of UHD when they never were, and couldn’t have been properly tested to make such a representation in the first place, only to later quietly change their website to reflect that incompatibility with no further explanation. 😂

HT: Arc + Era 300s + Subs (G3/G2) + Sony A80L + Sony UBP-X800M2
J
Userlevel 4
Badge +6

Yeah, I fully agree. CD quality is fine. But I pedantically wanted to know what I’m getting and why I can’t confirm I have what they both promise in their marketing?…

That has been my issue all along.  Being told certain equipment was compatible when it was not.  So now I know.  And I won’t let it take away from what I actually hear through my Sonos speakers, which sounds great to my ears.

HT: Arc + Era 300s + Subs (G3/G2) + Sony A80L + Sony UBP-X800M2
K

Yeah, I fully agree. CD quality is fine. But I pedantically wanted to know what I’m getting and why I can’t confirm I have what they both promise in their marketing?…

That has been my issue all along.  Being told certain equipment was compatible when it was not.  So now I know.  And I won’t let it take away from what I actually hear through my Sonos speakers, which sounds great to my ears.

The last part quoted is the right way to look at things. I have not used the 3 units, but going by how my play 1 units still perform, I am sure that the 3 units are still very decent speakers capable of giving a high quality sound when stereo paired and well placed. So, hopefully in the case of the OP, “ditched” does not rule out redeployed to another space/room to expand music delivery to more parts of the home.

I don’t know the facts about the compatibility you refer to, but if it is to Sonos marketing claims, they don’t set any standards higher than what the rest of the industry does, so they may have been just as culpable there as they continue to be in calling their radio service HD.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +6

@Kumar: Just to clarify, the compatibility issue I raised is that Sonos for months represented that the Gen 1 sub and Gen 2 sub were compatible with UHD when they were not. When I initially called Sonos support months ago because my Gen 2 sub that was bonded with my Gen 2 Play:5s were not getting UHD (even they were identified as compatible), I was told it was simply a badge display issue and they were working on a fix.

Others on this forum were told it was more than a dsiplay issue, and that it was a compatibility issue related to differing DRM capabilities across different components, but they were also told a fix was in the works: 

https://en.community.sonos.com/music-services-and-sources-228994/amazon-ultra-hd-not-showing-badge-on-play-5-gen-2-6863358

Much later, @Corry P confirmed the Gen 1 and Gen 2 subs are not compatible with UHD and there is no fix expected:

https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/amazon-ultra-hd-playback-display-issues-6868114

Only recently did Sonos update their website to reflect the UHD incompatibility of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 subs, noted here:

https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3248?language=en_US

(Note: If a Gen 1 or Gen 2 sub is bonded with an Arc/Beam, the Arc/Beam will handle the DRM and UHD will be possible, but that will not be the case if a Gen 1 or Gen 2 sub is bonded with a single speaker or a pair in a non-HT set up.)

HT: Arc + Era 300s + Subs (G3/G2) + Sony A80L + Sony UBP-X800M2
B

there are 2 version of the  Gen 2 Connect. Both are S2 compatible but only the newer version is compatible with Amazon Music Ultra HD . The Latest version of the Gen 2 Connect is the S15 version. B

 

That adds to my confusion. Your link explains the difference, but not the Amazon limitation. It is also isn’t mentioned in the support page (https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3248?language=en_US). Mine is h/w version 1.17.5.5-2.0 so the older Gen 2, C100. It was selected specifically because the support page confirms it isn’t incompatible. Sonos support also stated it was compatible when I chatted with them. I can easily swap this Connect for a newer one though. They are roughly the same price. But even if what you say is true…it also doesn’t explain why I’m not getting UHD on the Ones. I have another internet link and wi-fi network here so I’ll be testing on that next.

M
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

Anyone ever done an ABX blind test?

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
B

there are 2 version of the  Gen 2 Connect. Both are S2 compatible but only the newer version is compatible with Amazon Music Ultra HD . The Latest version of the Gen 2 Connect is the S15 version. B

 

That adds to my confusion. Your link explains the difference, but not the Amazon limitation. It is also isn’t mentioned in the support page (https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3248?language=en_US). Mine is h/w version 1.17.5.5-2.0 so the older Gen 2, C100. It was selected specifically because the support page confirms it isn’t incompatible. Sonos support also stated it was compatible when I chatted with them. I can easily swap this Connect for a newer one though. They are roughly the same price. But even if what you say is true…it also doesn’t explain why I’m not getting UHD on the Ones. I have another internet link and wi-fi network here so I’ll be testing on that next.

As it goes, Sonos support have just now said it doesn’t do UHD. Contradicting themselves from a few days ago and making their support page misleading. However, at least I know why the Connect won’t do UHD...

ratty

Stepping back for one moment, how were you intending to connect the Connect to your HiFi? Analog or digital? And were you going to use a Fixed or Variable output level?

The reason I raise this is that the lowest bits of the desired 24-bit depth could have disappeared anyway, either below the DAC’s noise floor or by truncation on the S/PDIF.

B

Stepping back for one moment, how were you intending to connect the Connect to your HiFi? Analog or digital? And were you going to use a Fixed or Variable output level?

The reason I raise this is that the lowest bits of the desired 24-bit depth could have disappeared anyway, either below the DAC’s noise floor or by truncation on the S/PDIF.

It is already connected, via analogue to aux in on my amp. Set up for variable output level currently. You are clearly more knowledgeable than I about the sonic details here. But when all said and done, I’m just a consumer looking for the UHD badge reassurance from the service I’m paying for. I fully agree my hearing isn’t up to the job but I wanted the UHD badge anyway! However, I’m glad I started this thread because it’s now answered my question and can also be found by others. You have all been very helpful. 

K

You are clearly more knowledgeable than I about the sonic details here. But when all said and done, I’m just a consumer looking for the UHD badge reassurance from the service I’m paying for. I fully agree my hearing isn’t up to the job but I wanted the UHD badge anyway!

I doubt that any of us writing here have unimpaired hearing. 

Once you understand that this UHD thing is a much touted solution to a problem that does not exist, you will stop feeling shortchanged - and getting people to feel this way is the only real thing this entire HD audio thing seems to achieve, more than anything else.

B

However, swapping out the Connect for the newer S15 version.. has given me closure. I can’t hear the difference FYI :o)

 

K

  It also has a highly responsive development team, which has its modules and firmware in millions of devices already, including Yamaha sound bars and Edifier smart speakers. In short, Linkplay, the WiiM owner, is not going away anytime soon. 

Very interesting; will there be a Big Bang launch event? Soon?

ratty

  For $89, there’s finally a device that offers some real competition to Sonos.  Competition is always a good thing.

Sounds just the thing for folks that don’t want expensive speakers with bundled smarts, that become obsolete just because the smart tech has moved on to a better place, making the whole speaker obsolete.

PS: Above said, and if one were to look beyond the Hi Res Kool Aid, what will this do that the much cheaper Echo Dot cannot?

It has an optical output, which is bit-perfect up to 24/192, to drive a quality DAC. 

Seems a bit strange then that the user manual says:

Audio Sound Quality

Audio Input: up to 192 kHz, 24-bit

Audio Output: 48 kHz, 16-bit, CD quality

M
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

Marcellus H. Not sure on your math there but everything I try comes up about like the chart.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/audio-file-size

 

 

 

Because this picture shows the proper bit to rate for 2 channel stereo :D

1411.2kbits/s ÷ 8 = 176.4 kbytes/s file size

 

Multiply 176,4 kb/s x 60 x 60 = 635 MB for the hour

 

The chart before was showing the mono bit rate, which was confusing me. Other numbers were correct I guess. That said, I said what I had to say about this. I'll stop pointing that out.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
Belly M
Badge +20

  For $89, there’s finally a device that offers some real competition to Sonos.  Competition is always a good thing.

Sounds just the thing for folks that don’t want expensive speakers with bundled smarts, that become obsolete just because the smart tech has moved on to a better place, making the whole speaker obsolete.

PS: Above said, and if one were to look beyond the Hi Res Kool Aid, what will this do that the much cheaper Echo Dot cannot?

It has an optical output, which is bit-perfect up to 24/192, to drive a quality DAC. 

Seems a bit strange then that the user manual says:

Audio Sound Quality

Audio Input: up to 192 kHz, 24-bit

Audio Output: 48 kHz, 16-bit, CD quality

There was a firmware update earlier this year, they probably never got round to updating the manual, you have to scroll down as they have been busy,

https://wiimhome.com/releaseNote

 

chicks

There have been firmware updates about every other week for several months. Bit-perfect up to 24/192 has been tested by Amir at ASR, and confirmed by me using the test files provided by RME via my RME DAC. 
 

John Atkinson has confirmed that Stereophile will be testing it soon, unusual for such a low cost device. 

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings