It looks like the Connect is no longer bit-perfect. Here's my evidence: let's discuss this.
First, I constructed a wav file of pink noise with amplitude ramping up from zero to digital max and back to zero.
I play this through my Connect and record the SPDIF output from the coax output into my PC.
The recording uses a Scarlett 8i6 audio interface set to use the Connect as master clock.
I record into a DAW (Sonar) multiple times - all instances are identical.
However, this recorded signal is not quite the same as the original wav file - it can be up to -21dB different.
See https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8od479xo9hi5el/connect_diff.PNG?dl=1
Note the expanded scale on the difference (third) track.
It looks like the difference gets larger when the signal is larger. To confirm this, I import the
original and difference files into Matlab and plot the raw data (difference vs original). There is clearly audio compression
happening here. See https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1yq6wcqafvnhaj/diff_vs_orig.png?dl=1
The scale is such that digital maximum is 1.
There also appears to be a slight bias when the waveform is negative and the signal is below the
compression threshold. See an expanded version of the previous plot
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9001tl9mkle4wly/diff_vs_orig_zoom.png?dl=1
Happy to answer questions about the method and conclusions.
Cheers, Peter.
p.s. Volume is set to fixed - I haven't tried variable.
In a loopback test (8i6 out from DAW to 8i6 in, no Sonos gear involved), I get bit-perfect cancellation.
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That's "rein". :8
And if that was an audiophile forum, I can think of no higher achievement than to annoy a group of audiophiles. I can now die a happy man.
And if that was an audiophile forum, I can think of no higher achievement than to annoy a group of audiophiles. I can now die a happy man.
My word, my awful grammar. Must be because you're king of the forum.
That reign vs rein bit made me lol.
Personal attack, where?
Everyone, we're way off course right now, let's bring it back on topic.
What personal attacks?
Your forum favourite, jgatie, is one of the reasons many can't be bothered with posting on this forum, but you protect him.
How about you take a look at my post asking for help on an issue?
https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/distortion-since-last-update-on-play-5-and-on-connect-amp-6763208
Userlevel 7
+26
I would say calling someone out publically on the community as "the reason people don't come here" is a personal attack, don't you agree? Even if you don't, I think we can all agree that it has nothing to do with the conversation around the CONNECT"s audio playback abilties in this ~440 reply thread. I'd be happy to discuss this in private if you'd like, but for the sake of everyone who keeps coming to this thread due to getting email updates, let's stay on topic.
As to the thread you posted, if you're still having that issue, I'd say it's best to give us a call on our support line and work with a technician on it. It'd be easier to figure out what "distortion" means, and determine if it's due to a hardware issue or something else.
As to the thread you posted, if you're still having that issue, I'd say it's best to give us a call on our support line and work with a technician on it. It'd be easier to figure out what "distortion" means, and determine if it's due to a hardware issue or something else.
Tunesmap looks far more interesting than Roon. It’s clearly being marketed to music lovers, while Roon seems more oriented to the delusional audiophile tweakers. Naturally, it will require Sonos.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/business/media/tunesmap-liner-notes.html
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/business/media/tunesmap-liner-notes.html
Userlevel 7
+21
Unless the refresh of the Sonos Connect - a new Connect appeared in the FCC database back in April last year - happens to also have a return to bit-perfect?
The known difference between this new Connect and any existing versions is the wireless card... which is what would have required updated FCC records. Other changes could have been made as well. Whether this new Connect is even available yet is unknown.
The known difference between this new Connect and any existing versions is the wireless card... which is what would have required updated FCC records. Other changes could have been made as well. Whether this new Connect is even available yet is unknown.
The claim is being made that Sonos kit can equal the performance of high-end hi-fi - that is indeed an extraordinary claim, and it certainly does demand extraordinary proof - from the person that made the claim.
Why? This is a purely subjective opinion, Kumar has repeatedly said it is purely subjective and, depending on one's taste, could very well be perceived as the opposite by others. One should not have to "prove" their opinion, especially if they specifically deny they are making some kind of universal truth.
A number of the statements that Kumar makes are not subjective opinions, they are stated as fact. If they were qualified (e.g. 'in my personal opinion') then I wouldn't be raising this - as you say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
How does this apply to those who have other possibly controversial opinions about audio matters? For example, that MQA sounds better to them, or an external DAC sounds better to them than the internal DAC on a Connect, or that 24 bit sounds better to them?
Do we not need a consistent standard here?
Kumar, I never stated you couldn't claim that Sonos is also an audiophile system at certain price points. Matter of fact, I explicitly stated you can subjectively claim anything you wish. Even more so, you have expressed a willingness to justify, or otherwise rationalize your claims, which is far more than others do. For this I applaud you. 🙂
No need. Look in About My Sonos System. Ryan said that this affected hardware version 1.16.5 or higher.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this may have crept in around the time of Trueplay.
In the case of PLAY:1 the effect of Trueplay's EQ could, when added to the existing EQ to make it sound 'big', on rare occasions result in bass clipping upstream of the volume control. (This was often dismissed as 'hardware fault'. It wasn't: I witnessed this on multiple PLAY:1s requiring the same, possibly pathological, room compensation.)
A quick solution may well have been to implement a soft knee limiter. Certainly something has largely resolved PLAY:1s earlier difficulties. If true, it's a tragic irony that this was carried over into CONNECT, when the unit doesn't even support Trueplay.
In the case of PLAY:1 the effect of Trueplay's EQ could, when added to the existing EQ to make it sound 'big', on rare occasions result in bass clipping upstream of the volume control. (This was often dismissed as 'hardware fault'. It wasn't: I witnessed this on multiple PLAY:1s requiring the same, possibly pathological, room compensation.)
A quick solution may well have been to implement a soft knee limiter. Certainly something has largely resolved PLAY:1s earlier difficulties. If true, it's a tragic irony that this was carried over into CONNECT, when the unit doesn't even support Trueplay.
Can you explain a bit more what you mean here Ratty? Corroborative evidence of what? What is potentially doing the adulteration? Sorry but I'm having trouble cluing in to what you mean - perhaps the G&T with dinner :)
My point was simply that in those 10-year-old ZP80 tests the samples must have passed through unsullied, otherwise the lowest byte of the 24-bit S/PDIF would have been populated -- as it indeed was when the tester dropped the volume below 100%.
Why wouldn't I be consistent? Has something changed about the biology of the human ear, the laws of acoustics, or the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorem in the last 89 years?
I didn't say you shouldn't.
You have an incredibly aggressive nature, every post of yours makes you seem like a very angry chap.
No. I read through it last night and it is just 'same old, same old'.
I don't enjoy arguing with people, and all you lot want to do is argue. It doesn't matter what I say, I will get jagitate tell me that I'm wrong or I'm a fool so don't see the point.
I don't enjoy arguing with people, and all you lot want to do is argue. It doesn't matter what I say, I will get jagitate tell me that I'm wrong or I'm a fool so don't see the point.
Which word would that be?
I have read through my post a few times and I can't see what is highly offensive and certainly can't see what is 'far from the truth'?
The only word I have used to describe him is 'bigot'.
Is that the word?
bigot
noun
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
I think that sums him up perfectly.
In every thread he comes across as someone whose opinion is fact, and anyone who has a different opinion is wrong. The constant tosh he spouts about 'ABX testing' and 'prove you prefer it' is just.......never mind.
I am saying as someone joining the Sonos forum there are a handful of people on here that make it pretty painful to those who might want to get involved with discussion. You can chose what you want to do with that info, I can pretty much guess what will be done with it.
Enjoy the weekend.
If you weren't such an opinionated bigot I would bother, but what's the point?
I know for a fact I'm not the only one who thinks this because of the PMs I have had from other members telling me they have just learnt to ignore you or don't post in the threads you post in, although pretty hard with such a post count as you do seem to be in almost every thread.
Find a large following? Is that what you think people want? Is that why you have nearly 13000 posts on here? To get a following.
Oh dear.
The funny thing about this is I've not called you any names, fool or otherwise. Yet you feel the need to accuse me of name calling and attack me personally with an extremely loaded term such as "bigot". I suggest you reread your exchanges with me in this thread and you may begin to understand why you feel the anger you do. When one has to resort to calling another names like "idiot", "old man know it all" or "bigot" without any evidence of them being true, it's more than likely they are losing the factual argument.
Your constant droning on is very bigoted.
Those that call people who hear differences in different kit "audiofools" are idiots, those that preach that sort of thing as fact do come across as 'know it all old men'.
It is boring, it is rude, so if those doing it don't want to be pulled up on it, don't do it.
That is not aimed just at you, there are so many threads with the same nonsense posted from the same few people that in the end you just think 'sod it' and want people to shut the hell up. We get you don't agree with differences in DACs etc. We get you don't think having a bit perfect player matters, and if it doesn't matter to you fine, but why tell everyone it does matter to that they are wrong?!
As I said before, we shall agree to disagree. You think I talk shite, I think you talk shite. Ho hum, that's life. So what? :D
Have fun, it's the weekend after all, and in 2 minutes I am off for 2 days!
Userlevel 1
Actually, this mostly reminds me of why I rarely come to community forums ... I seem to remember a long time ago this thread was about a very specific issue; that the Sonos Connect no longer streams the original bits to its optical output, but is transcoding them.
I started my post saying I liked my Sonos gear, but after trying other sources into my DAC realised it was seriously behind in terms if fidelity, I logged into the forum and saw this thread, hence why I posted in here asking if something that was higher end that could also possibly handle MQA etc was on the roadmap.
The first reply was...
A "Hi Rez" Connect might sell in the thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands. The Play:1 sells in the millions. I doubt Sonos will produce something that only self-deluded audiophiles can "hear" a difference with.
So, first reply is being called a 'self-deluded audiophile.
I then asked Chicks if he/she had heard MQA?
I don't deal with "beliefs". That's for the audiophools. I stick to facts. Real facts, not alternative ones.
By that point I should have just stopped discussing it, lesson learnt.
I then said that a DAC is not designed to sound 'pure' to you jgatie, and I don't believe they should, there should be filters to tailor the sonic signature.
Your reply...
What's wrong with that is you can do the exact same thing with a DSP and/or equalizer, in an almost infinite amount of configurations, and not pay thousands of dollars for it. A DAC shouldn't be purposefully coloring the output, if it does, it is not a "pure" DAC, it's nothing but DSP snake oil easily achieved in much less deceptive (and less expensive) ways.
Snake oil is a term used to belittle nonsense in the hifi world, which I agree there is plenty of, nonsense I mean. So how am I meant to take that?
At the end of the day, there are differences of opinion, I was not the one who started with the name calling, but if someone talks crap and spouts nonsense as if it were fact I will call them an idiot.
Reading back through it seems it is mainly Chicks who keeps starting with the crap, and just talks in riddles.
What the hell is the following meant to mean?
Big difference between opinions of the uninformed and those grounded solidly in facts. Yours, I fear, have a basis about as scientific as those of the current administration...
That was in reply to using the word Bigot and people talking about ABX testing of files like MQA that they haven't even heard yet. Not a clue what you're babbling about to be honest. Current administration?
Maybe English is not your first language Chicks? Bigot is not a 'highly offensive' word, I am a bigot about a lot of things, human nature, I am also ignorant to a lot of things, any one who says they are not ignorant about anything, is, well............look up ignorant. Kind of ironic.
I look forward to the grilling lying ahead for me.
The first reply was...
A "Hi Rez" Connect might sell in the thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands. The Play:1 sells in the millions. I doubt Sonos will produce something that only self-deluded audiophiles can "hear" a difference with.
So, first reply is being called a 'self-deluded audiophile.
I then asked Chicks if he/she had heard MQA?
By that point I should have just stopped discussing it, lesson learnt.
I then said that a DAC is not designed to sound 'pure' to you jgatie, and I don't believe they should, there should be filters to tailor the sonic signature.
Your reply...
Snake oil is a term used to belittle nonsense in the hifi world, which I agree there is plenty of, nonsense I mean. So how am I meant to take that?
At the end of the day, there are differences of opinion, I was not the one who started with the name calling, but if someone talks crap and spouts nonsense as if it were fact I will call them an idiot.
Reading back through it seems it is mainly Chicks who keeps starting with the crap, and just talks in riddles.
What the hell is the following meant to mean?
Big difference between opinions of the uninformed and those grounded solidly in facts. Yours, I fear, have a basis about as scientific as those of the current administration...
That was in reply to using the word Bigot and people talking about ABX testing of files like MQA that they haven't even heard yet. Not a clue what you're babbling about to be honest. Current administration?
Maybe English is not your first language Chicks? Bigot is not a 'highly offensive' word, I am a bigot about a lot of things, human nature, I am also ignorant to a lot of things, any one who says they are not ignorant about anything, is, well............look up ignorant. Kind of ironic.
I look forward to the grilling lying ahead for me.
If you weren't such an opinionated bigot
Your constant droning on is very bigoted.
It is boring, it is rude,
there are so many threads with the same nonsense
I think you talk shite
but why tell everyone it does matter to that they are wrong?!
In any of my posts since 2011, and they are a few more than your 55, I don't recall using phrases as objectionable as the ones quoted above; if I have and someone shows them to me, I will apologise. The last one quoted isn't rude of course, that has been quoted for this response:
This is not a private conversation between people on two sides of a divide. Others that either have or are considering Sonos are also the audience and it does matter to them if you are wrong.
And here is the aspect of the problem that you are probably ignorant about - this story has been playing out for ten years now and no one claiming the kind of things you have has ever been able to back up their subjective claims with anything of more substance. So when someone new comes along here singing the same song, being short - as opposed to rude - with them is natural; all the more because none take the trouble to read the earlier conversations. Some even admit to not having read the full thread.
By the way, you will not find any of the regulars being short with people that ask the same troubleshooting help over and over.
And then there is this - consider the two statements below:
1. Sonos kit is capable of being as good as the best audiophile system
2. Sonos kit delivers better sound quality than any audiophile system out there
There are people here that don't even fully understand ABX, that will demand an ABX proof for statement 1.
And there are those that will not accept that statement 2 requires such proof, even where " Sonos" and "Audiophile system" are replaced by "Hi Res" and "CD quality". By the way, no one accusing me as they often do of being a Sonos fanboy will have seen Statement 2 as written above in any form, from me - or from any of the regulars.
Then there is the "in my opinion" thing going around. People that know better, understand where and when it is to be inferred. Would it help if I just added " IMHO, YMMV " to my signature?! Doing more than that is tiresome, silly and inefficient, and I do not intend doing that just to please those that have run out of counter arguments that have a leg to stand on.
Just to clarify a number in my original post - the original and recorded signals can differ by up to about 1dB. It is the difference signal that can have an amplitude of -21dB (compared to full scale).
Also, the offset for the negative waveform (before compression kicks in) in my third plot is just 1 bit. This means every time the signal dips below zero, the amplitude is in error by 1 bit. That's got to be a bug. I can't imagine what that does to the sound, or if it's even audible.
Also, the offset for the negative waveform (before compression kicks in) in my third plot is just 1 bit. This means every time the signal dips below zero, the amplitude is in error by 1 bit. That's got to be a bug. I can't imagine what that does to the sound, or if it's even audible.
Who are these people that are able to judge that claiming someone is a liar is inferred opinion, but that claiming MQA sounds better is a statement of fact? And how do they tell the difference?
Userlevel 7
+22
Also, the offset for the negative waveform (before compression kicks in) in my third plot is just 1 bit. This means every time the signal dips below zero, the amplitude is in error by 1 bit. That's got to be a bug. I can't imagine what that does to the sound, or if it's even audible.
If you can discriminate 1 dB you need dissecting - for scientific purposes only you understand!
I am not sure I understand you; to the extent I can, my inference is that both the statements you have made are opinions.
As has been remarked elsewhere it's been proven in the past that Dolby or DTS content could be piped bit-perfect through the system. Any bit errors there would likely have corrupted the stream. Something seems to have changed, and at present the finger of suspicion is wavering in the direction of the DSP rework.
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