Connect no longer bit-perfect?

Volume normalisation between local and online tracks would be relatively straightforward if:
- the services consistently added a normalisation tag (e.g. REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN to 89dB reference level)
- Sonos consistently dealt with the normalisation tag provided (it doesn't, and TTBOMK never has)

Given Sonos' (lack of) enthusiasm for sorting out normalisation for local tracks I can't say I'm optimistic about the chances of a consistent approach across local and online sources. Besides, we know that the proportion of customers -- certainly new customers -- with local libraries is relatively low. And I'd imagine that most users of online services tend to use just one such service the bulk of the time.

That's not to say that Sonos might not look at normalisation for, say, Spotify if it supplied suitable tags.

I'm not passive aggressive pimping other products at all, I'm just not saying 'there is only Sonos'.

I'm pretty sure if Websters had a definition for passive-aggressive pimping of other products it would be this! 😃

It should still be really simple to disable all DSP in fixed volume mode and provide bit-perfect output.

Did you notice any audible improvement in the normalisation feature performance subsequent to this change? If you did not, and nor did anyone else, the obvious question is that the above should not be a big project needing resources?

I wasn't even aware of volume normalisation when the brick-wall limiter got introduced (version 6.0 of the software if I remember correctly). I've done a lot of learning since then. And I certainly can't ABX this change! So I can't answer your question.

I actually came on here to ask if there was a new higher end product coming out that would allow higher res files and MQA decoding as after trying things like the Meridian MS200 and even their cheap explorer 2 (£129) going back to the Connect sounds incredibly flat, almost like the soundstage has collapsed. Seeing this thread might explain why that now is, not the fact the Sonos Connect is really bad, just that it is reducing volume in the digital domain and therefore throwing away resolution.

With all the other options out there now, and with the price increases many are jumping ship, and the only reason is the fact audiophile has moved on from 16/44, it has been 12 years now since Sonos came out, my ZP100 is 12 years old, my ZP80 (or maybe it's a 90) is probably 11 years old.
They sit there happily playing, but where is the product to get me buying more from you?

If you brought out a Connect pro that played Tidal's MQA files and the HiRez (even if it were up to 24/96) I would buy it, as would many more out there. So come on, let's not pretend we are in the early days of music streaming anymore, let's offer some new product, and give us a reason to buy more gear from you.

A "Hi Rez" Connect might sell in the thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands. The Play:1 sells in the millions. I doubt Sonos will produce something that only self-deluded audiophiles can "hear" a difference with.

BTW, Sonos devices use a 24-bit buss internally. They're not discarding bits within the normal volume adjustment range.

The Sonos connect has now jumped from £279 to £349, the Bluesound Node at £499 is starting to look like great value.
The Bluesound is now a Roon endpoint too.

The point is, as a Sonos customer where do I go from here? There is no next level, or even a way to play todays formats, so the answer is to another brand, which as someone in the Sonos eco system already seems somewhat of a shame.

I like Sonos as they do update their gear with firmwares to keep it useful, and useful some 12 years later in tech terms is very good going. But there are lots of customers who would like a Sonos Connect that does all the formats that are out there today, not just the ones we have had for the last 30 years.

Adding a new connect that does the current formats they don't lose any customers, all their old gear will still do what it does today, but they will open themselves up to another market, and if they grab a share of that market I can bet many will suddenly buy a Play 5 for the kitchen and a couple of play 3s for the bedroom.
It is a great system with great software and integration, but right now not having the kit for peoples high end system is going to see people having a rethink.

Every forum I am on that is not music related, many are starting to try other brands, whether than Yamaha, Nad/Bluesound, Roon with a RaspberryPi etc. etc.
Maybe that is more a UK thing because of the price increases? But it has been pretty vocal on the forums I use.


I just looked at your kit, I agree, with your kit better quality is pointless.
That is not a dig, that is the point I was making about my my Play 5 being fun and my Connect Amp (ZP100) doing a fine job, they are great for what they are.
But there is a serious difference between playing Tidal through the Connect into my Meridian DSP speakers compared with the Meridian MS200 I just borrowed (£299 so £50 cheaper than the connect) and even with my Macbook going straight into the speakers playing back 24/96 through their Masters Series albums (MQA). Even my wife gave a "Wow!" and she listens to the radio through the TV speakers most of the time! 😉

You need to get your ears checked...:-))

Yup, that's certainly been suggested, most frequently by my wife. 🙂

The posts that still show up here are interesting even though I ditched my Connect in favor of an Auralic Aries for my system.

The comments about ears and the age of some of us is of interest to me because I am 72 and, of course, my hearing has deteriorated. You cannot know how many times I have heard people comment I should not waste my money on better sound equipment because I can't hear the difference. That is just not true. I cannot hear the same frequencies younger people hear, but I can still tell the difference between good gear and not-so-good gear. Perhaps the best example is having to sell my Belle Klipsch speakers I bought in 1976 because there is no way they would fit when I moved from a house to a condo. A friend had replaced his Dynaudio Contour 1.8 Mark II speakers with Peak Consult Princess (you won't find them at Walmart) ones having about the same footprint (about 12" x 8"). Side by side in his home, I could definitely tell a difference them. Not frequencies, not volume (we measured), but the Consults were "better". obviously better. When asked to describe, I could only say "presense". He graciously sold me his Dynaudios for a good-friend price. I checked them as free bags on my flight from Phoenix to Cincinnati. Shipping was a super bargain!

At my house, where the Belles were still in the living room, the comparison was not even close. The Dynaudios were clean and clear, just like at my friend's, but the Belles blew them away. Now, I don't mean like shake the house, which they could do -- theater speakers in a nice cabinet after all. But the fullness of the sound, the feeling of "being there" were head and shoulders over the Dynaudios. The were "better". I sold the Belles for more than I paid for them in 1976.

Even "bad" ears can tell a difference. Especially when it comes to speakers. I can most certainly tell a difference between CDs and MP3s, but not lossless FLAC rips. I doubt I, or most normal humans, can tell a difference between 10 gauge wire and some of the exotic stuff. I called Klisch a few years ago and asked about maintenance on the Belles and what wire they recommend. They suggested updating the crossovers (capacitors), but said 12 gauge lamp cord would do just fine for the wire.

One more oddity about "bad ears". I have a pair of Ultimate Ears in-the-ear monitors that I use with a Pioneer XDP-100R (a huge bargain these days with the 300 now out!) portable player playing FLAC rips. My right ear has been affected by Meniere's Disease. Not terribly, but noticeable. The left is hearing like a much younger person. When I use the monitors, the sound is perfectly balanced -- at least my brain makes it so. The quality of the sound is beyond incredible. Plugged into an iPod, they sound muffled playing Apple Lossless, which several test show me the same binary for the music part of the file. If it weren't for the "headphone effect" of being in the middle of the band instead of in front of it, this would be my preferred way to listen to music. I cannot explain the illusion of balance.

Lastly, and the whole point of posting here after about a year, is that perfect hearing is like perfect smell (I'm the "sniffer" in our building, called upon to find the source) or perfect taste. We can't begin to guess what music sounds like to someone with great ears and perfect pitch or what nuances one smells or tastes with "good" and "bad" food. But, good food smells and tastes better than bad even to those without such sensitive senses. Same for sound. Bad ears can still tell the difference, it's just not the same difference.

Hello, Kumar!

I don't deal with "beliefs". That's for the audiophools. I stick to facts. Real facts, not alternative ones.

So you won't even listen to other kit? It is a blanket 'fact' that all kit sounds the same?

You don't think each manufacturers kit has their own sonic signature?

OK. Fair enough.

Peter, the only way one can rank the Sonos DAC against any other at any price on sound quality is via a level matched blind test, and I am yet to see one reported any where. If I do, I just might have reasons to reconsider what my ears tell me today!


Is what your ears tell you today the result of a level matched blind test?

I think it is important that we apply the same standards to ourselves as we require of others. I admit I do not always live up to this - it's difficult, requires constant vigilance, and an occasional reminder from friends 🙂

It's a simple question that deserves it's own thread. I'll start one.

I was hoping there may be a reply from people describing a roadmap of what products were on the way to take advantage of the newer formats and to compete with products from the competition that are now on the market.

One problem here is that the search function is lousy; you would have been better served reading and then posting on the threads that are on the MQA subject, but finding them here is a challenge.
I have no personal experience with MQA, but on the hi res subject, people here are fed up with all the unjustified hype that exists around it, that dates back to 2007 or so. Your point about just wanting to listen to the files you have that are in that format is a good one; there is a way to this via a one time downsample and Sonos have also spoken once about seeing if this can be done on the fly every time. That said, there has been no further talk on those lines since, so the one time downsample is your only option.
As to a roadmap, none of us have any access to the information needed to draw that and you won't see that here even from Sonos Staff. All that is known are the stated present priorities of Sonos that are in the area of voice control, streaming services and integration into home automation. This, in response to what Sonos sees on the competition front. Clearly, they are not losing sleep over either Bluesound or Meridian. IMO, rightly so, though you disagree.
At the same time, expect challenges if you make statements that Sonos isn't meant for high end audiophile listening, because that misleads existing and potential customers and those of us that have seen/used a lot of audiophile kit will not let that statement slide. There is also little belief here in golden ears.