It looks like the Connect is no longer bit-perfect. Here's my evidence: let's discuss this.
First, I constructed a wav file of pink noise with amplitude ramping up from zero to digital max and back to zero.
I play this through my Connect and record the SPDIF output from the coax output into my PC.
The recording uses a Scarlett 8i6 audio interface set to use the Connect as master clock.
I record into a DAW (Sonar) multiple times - all instances are identical.
However, this recorded signal is not quite the same as the original wav file - it can be up to -21dB different.
See https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8od479xo9hi5el/connect_diff.PNG?dl=1
Note the expanded scale on the difference (third) track.
It looks like the difference gets larger when the signal is larger. To confirm this, I import the
original and difference files into Matlab and plot the raw data (difference vs original). There is clearly audio compression
happening here. See https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1yq6wcqafvnhaj/diff_vs_orig.png?dl=1
The scale is such that digital maximum is 1.
There also appears to be a slight bias when the waveform is negative and the signal is below the
compression threshold. See an expanded version of the previous plot
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9001tl9mkle4wly/diff_vs_orig_zoom.png?dl=1
Happy to answer questions about the method and conclusions.
Cheers, Peter.
p.s. Volume is set to fixed - I haven't tried variable.
In a loopback test (8i6 out from DAW to 8i6 in, no Sonos gear involved), I get bit-perfect cancellation.
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You have no idea why the change was made - this is pure speculation.
The thing that I find most ironic is that for years the fanboys have been yelling 'bit-perfect, bit perfect' (because it says so in a very old test of a ZP80) and shouting down people who claim that other dacs and conversions sound better. We now find out that, since 2011, people who care about sound quality could have been right all along...
You won't find anybody who "yelled" bit-perfect before defending Sonos on this issue. At least I won't be. Sonos, for whatever reason, screwed with what should be bit-perfect output, and that is not good. So can it with the "fanboy" nonsense, it's a weak and cowardly tactic to attack the messenger and not the message. Either you can defeat the argument, or you can't.
If you read this thread you will see that Peter has shown you how to do this: switch Connect to variable level mode and don't exceed 88% on its volume slider.
There is nothing that Sonos can do if your third party speaker, where you have kept it, or poor room acoustics are coming in the way of this.
Userlevel 1
You won't find anybody who "yelled" bit-perfect before defending Sonos on this issue. At least I won't be. Sonos, for whatever reason, screwed with what should be bit-perfect output, and that is not good. So can it with the "fanboy" nonsense, it's a weak and cowardly tactic to attack the messenger and not the message. Either you can defeat the argument, or you can't.
Agreed, this is about being able to stream the original bits to my DAC. If they are transcoded before they get there, there is not much point, why bother to have two digital outputs, they could save the money and not confuse people.
Userlevel 1
You do realise that you're not a mod, don't you?
So I'm not allowed to call you out on weak and cowardly arguments unless I'm a mod? Who makes these rules?
How about both of you move on so we can get back to the discussion.
The silence represents Sonos's arrogance IMO. Does Sonos have a great products yes. Is there room for improvement on on both the hardware and software -Yes. I think the secrecy surrounding new product refreshes(if any are even coming) is getting a little frustrating for us loyal Sonos supporters. Lets look at the outdated Connect. Aesthetically it ugly. I personally hide my three behind all my other gear. Not bit perfect, does not have a 12v trigger output, does not support high res files (even over a hard wired connection) wont be able to support MQA even if MQA is successful. Compeditors like the Bluesound and their Node 2 hardware has surpassed offering from Sonos. They have listed to their customers and critics and responded with upgraded equipment. Why can't Sonos do the same for their customers. If Sonos is working on a Connect replacement what would be wrong with a small press release from Sonos to stating exciting times ahead for you Sonos Connect users. Give us loyal customers a bone. if they are not working on a replacement connect then let us know here in this thread. If Sonos does not feel a replacement Connect is where they want to spend their resourses at this time please let the rest of us know. Maybe they dont sell enough connects to warrant an upgrade in their opinion. I dont think there are many users here who are heavily invested in the Sonos ecosystem want to change from Sonos. This is of course provided the Sonos offereing are up to date and current. I personally do not what to change. I only what an upgraded connect that will compete with the majortiy of other streamers in the market today addressing todays requirements. Sure Sonos is going through some overdue changes in management. Hopefully the new president will have vision of the future and wont be scared to talk about it. If new connect hardware is not in the future then let us know so we can move on to other offerings in the market place. We all want Sonos to succeed. Sonos not answering valid customer questions makes me feel slighted and unappreciated by Sonos.
I agree on the MQA front, but it still does not address the silence from Sonos. I just spent the last hour reading over at the the Bluesound forums. I must admit it was refreshing. Bluesound employees answering questions and concerns.
If the Node2 bit perfect. Answer yes. Employees addressing issues and acknowledging customer requests for future software upgrades. It is just a different culture over there. I think Sonos could learn a little from visiting their compeditotrs forums. Like I said i dont want to change from Sonos but the Node2 is looking more interesting everyday. In the mean time we the Sonos supporters are left with well, nothing to look forward too on the connect front.
If the Node2 bit perfect. Answer yes. Employees addressing issues and acknowledging customer requests for future software upgrades. It is just a different culture over there. I think Sonos could learn a little from visiting their compeditotrs forums. Like I said i dont want to change from Sonos but the Node2 is looking more interesting everyday. In the mean time we the Sonos supporters are left with well, nothing to look forward too on the connect front.
Bluesound caters to a tiny niche market, audiophiles who often believe things which have no basis in fact. They really aren't much of a threat. Sonos has moved well beyond that niche to become the premier provider of high quality connected speakers for the fast growing music streaming market. So long as they don't lose their focus on sound quality, ala Bose, I'll be a happy customer.
Jgaitie
Like I said a completely different culture over there. I hope to in the next few days write to the new Sonos President and use your reply as an example of how the Sonos community is moving forward with a positive attitude and direction. Let's hope he does not take your lead or Sonos will be destined to fail.
Let's hope he appreciates the customers he does have.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Like I said a completely different culture over there. I hope to in the next few days write to the new Sonos President and use your reply as an example of how the Sonos community is moving forward with a positive attitude and direction. Let's hope he does not take your lead or Sonos will be destined to fail.
Let's hope he appreciates the customers he does have.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Chicks
I can appreciate your response if all you may be looking forward for is good sounding wireless speakers. I agree and I enjoy the Sonos speaker lineup. I personally would like to see enhancements to products other that their speaker lineup. I would like a 12v trigger in a connect to be able to turn on a separate amp to drive a better set of speakers than what Sonos is the offering. The Sonos connect amp does not have enough power for my use.
I can appreciate your response if all you may be looking forward for is good sounding wireless speakers. I agree and I enjoy the Sonos speaker lineup. I personally would like to see enhancements to products other that their speaker lineup. I would like a 12v trigger in a connect to be able to turn on a separate amp to drive a better set of speakers than what Sonos is the offering. The Sonos connect amp does not have enough power for my use.
Use a Sonos Connect with an amp that can turn itself on when it senses audio. These amps also usually provide 12V out in case you need to activate other devices as well.
UpstateMike
Thanks for your reply.
I have tried that with inconsistent results. Parasound A23 amp set to turn on when it senses audio worked inconsistent. Low volumes it would shut down. Better audio equipment use 12v trigger as a standard. I would hope Sonos would consider my suggestion in future upgrades to the connect.
Thanks for your reply.
I have tried that with inconsistent results. Parasound A23 amp set to turn on when it senses audio worked inconsistent. Low volumes it would shut down. Better audio equipment use 12v trigger as a standard. I would hope Sonos would consider my suggestion in future upgrades to the connect.
Jgaite
And I like you I want to make Sonos better than what it is today. I agree with you in on MQA. I personally would like to get batter mastered audio files streaming to our Sonos gear at a reasonable price. How ever that can happen is what I seek.
I do not know your history with Bluesound but obviously you must have a long history with them to be so passionate.
My personal quest for better sounding music involves many components: Sonos, other audio products and different sources of music (both purchased and 3 streaming services)
It is because of the streaming services that I really enjoy the Sonos interface. It is the best I and I would like it to stay that way.
Although my Sonos connect is ok on it own feeding some of my other equipment the sound was definitely improved by feeding an alternative Dac.
I have 2 connects feeding 2 Schiit Yggdrasil DACs and then onto other equipment and speakers.
The improvement in sound quality with the Schiit DACs Was quite apparent and worth every penny to me.
I have Sonos equipment and speakers running in 7 rooms in my house so keeping within the Sonos environment is very important to me.
My mentioning of Bluesound equipment it to draw attention what other competitors are doing in there quest to unseat Sonos.
I personally want Sonos to use us the Sonos Community as a resource. To take suggestions and help make their future products better.
Things are changing so fast these days that everyone including Sonos must do there best to stay ahead. The play 1 and the new play 5 were a nice addition to the Sonos lineup.
In my opinion they also need to refresh the Connect and Connect Amp. Yes these possible refreshed devices may share some of the features of their competitors and that is a good thing.
We are all guessing why there is a MIC in the new Play5. My hope is it will interface with Echo in the near future. Maybe a future Connect might have a similar MIC.
A 12v trigger, a new MIC. It does not matter Any improvements to me are great as long as we keep moving forward. Let's not stick our heads in the sand.
New enhancements can't just be software related. It must also include new equipment. I am a realist to know I will have to replace my connects just like I replaced my original Play5's. the original hardware is too old to support all the future enhancements Sonos has in store.
I would just like Sonos to acknowledge our attempts in trying to make them a better Company. I would like them to provide feed back on why some of my ideas may not fall within their future plans.
That ego stroking you refer to is not to benefit me. It is meant to benefit Sonos.
We only need there participation
And I like you I want to make Sonos better than what it is today. I agree with you in on MQA. I personally would like to get batter mastered audio files streaming to our Sonos gear at a reasonable price. How ever that can happen is what I seek.
I do not know your history with Bluesound but obviously you must have a long history with them to be so passionate.
My personal quest for better sounding music involves many components: Sonos, other audio products and different sources of music (both purchased and 3 streaming services)
It is because of the streaming services that I really enjoy the Sonos interface. It is the best I and I would like it to stay that way.
Although my Sonos connect is ok on it own feeding some of my other equipment the sound was definitely improved by feeding an alternative Dac.
I have 2 connects feeding 2 Schiit Yggdrasil DACs and then onto other equipment and speakers.
The improvement in sound quality with the Schiit DACs Was quite apparent and worth every penny to me.
I have Sonos equipment and speakers running in 7 rooms in my house so keeping within the Sonos environment is very important to me.
My mentioning of Bluesound equipment it to draw attention what other competitors are doing in there quest to unseat Sonos.
I personally want Sonos to use us the Sonos Community as a resource. To take suggestions and help make their future products better.
Things are changing so fast these days that everyone including Sonos must do there best to stay ahead. The play 1 and the new play 5 were a nice addition to the Sonos lineup.
In my opinion they also need to refresh the Connect and Connect Amp. Yes these possible refreshed devices may share some of the features of their competitors and that is a good thing.
We are all guessing why there is a MIC in the new Play5. My hope is it will interface with Echo in the near future. Maybe a future Connect might have a similar MIC.
A 12v trigger, a new MIC. It does not matter Any improvements to me are great as long as we keep moving forward. Let's not stick our heads in the sand.
New enhancements can't just be software related. It must also include new equipment. I am a realist to know I will have to replace my connects just like I replaced my original Play5's. the original hardware is too old to support all the future enhancements Sonos has in store.
I would just like Sonos to acknowledge our attempts in trying to make them a better Company. I would like them to provide feed back on why some of my ideas may not fall within their future plans.
That ego stroking you refer to is not to benefit me. It is meant to benefit Sonos.
We only need there participation
I use Dot with a Wemo to power a vintage receiver via voice. 12V triggers are a bit old school.
Hi Chicks
I personally use a dot and a Harmony hub for similar task. I will agree to differ with you on the 12v trigger being old school. Most high end audio amps,preamps and Receivers have 12v triggers. My Audio visual processor has 2 -12v triggers that I find very important to me. Depending on the source I may only want 1 amp to come on(2 channel music) while on another source I want all 3 of my amps to come on for Movies etc.
Anyways it is fun figuring out different ways to make things automated the way we like it. The more features just allow us an easier path to the end game. 🙂
I personally use a dot and a Harmony hub for similar task. I will agree to differ with you on the 12v trigger being old school. Most high end audio amps,preamps and Receivers have 12v triggers. My Audio visual processor has 2 -12v triggers that I find very important to me. Depending on the source I may only want 1 amp to come on(2 channel music) while on another source I want all 3 of my amps to come on for Movies etc.
Anyways it is fun figuring out different ways to make things automated the way we like it. The more features just allow us an easier path to the end game. 🙂
I doubt there is any other change beyond volume normalisation, and this can be defeated on your own collection by removing any volume normalisation tags if you really don't want it.
Note that you can't remove tags from music from streaming services.
So, the sky isn't falling in for most people as there are workarounds. It is, however (IMO) clumsy of Sonos to require people to have to use those workarounds.
It would also be much better if Sonos actually implemented a complete solution for volume normalisation as most people would be happy with having it, if it worked properly. The complaint here is that the Sonos implementation of volume normalisation is partly broken and there is no easy way to disable it.
Cheers,
Keith
Note that you can't remove tags from music from streaming services.
So, the sky isn't falling in for most people as there are workarounds. It is, however (IMO) clumsy of Sonos to require people to have to use those workarounds.
It would also be much better if Sonos actually implemented a complete solution for volume normalisation as most people would be happy with having it, if it worked properly. The complaint here is that the Sonos implementation of volume normalisation is partly broken and there is no easy way to disable it.
Cheers,
Keith
In my opinion they also need to refresh the Connect and Connect Amp.
I would like them to provide feed back on why some of my ideas may not fall within their future plans.
As to the first statement, Sonos sees it future markets for home audio moving in the direction of adopting the play unit kind of technology and I see no sound quality reasons - pardon the pun - as to why this is not a good thing. Given that state of affairs, it is quite obvious that devices like the existing Connect, that are meant for interfacing with legacy - and IMO now obsolete kit - is no longer a market of interest to them. These are choices that every company makes, given that resources are always in short supply. Those on the wrong side of the choice have to either decide to move forward with Sonos in the new direction, or move away from Sonos to other solutions that meet their needs better. These areas are now almost certainly niche markets for Sonos, that don't fit into their strategic choices.
As to the last statement, sharing future plans is always walking a fine line. Sonos has said often enough what their future priorities are: Voice control, streaming services, and their speakers being used for home automation. One just needs to read between the lines as to the ideas that may not fall in line with their future plans; it isn't reasonable to expect them to say so for every new idea that bubbles up, although like any good company, they are probably keeping a tab on these.
But I agree that there could be more active Sonos participation here, though I suspect it is another symptom of the scarce resources problem, and not arrogance.
I keep hearing about Bluesound, I just looked at it on Amazon and found a total of 2 reviews for all their products - one a 4 star, another 2. Just one data point, I know, but compare that to the thousands of reviews for Sonos products, most of them 4/5 star. I don't believe that Bluesound does anything audible that Sonos cannot do for a lower average price point. And it does not do what Sonos can, that is essential for stable streaming around the home - the SonosNet mesh trick.
Jgaite have a great day.LOL
Kumar
I am not sure about the the Bluesound performance myself. I hear that there were definite problems with their software interface. I am not sure if these issues have been corrected in there latest software. I just like the the hardware features they are offering. If I was to critique their hardware I would like to see a USB digital out added to the node 2.
I am curious to know if I could tell the difference is sound quality between a Node 2 and a Connect. I would love to give it a try at my own house with my setups to see if bit perfect does make a difference in sound on my audio systems.. Unfortunately there are no stocking Bluesound dealers where I am.
I might order one in the future to give it a try. Of coarse I would Prefer Sonos to come out with a similar offering in an updated Connect to save me the money:)
Kumar
I am not sure about the the Bluesound performance myself. I hear that there were definite problems with their software interface. I am not sure if these issues have been corrected in there latest software. I just like the the hardware features they are offering. If I was to critique their hardware I would like to see a USB digital out added to the node 2.
I am curious to know if I could tell the difference is sound quality between a Node 2 and a Connect. I would love to give it a try at my own house with my setups to see if bit perfect does make a difference in sound on my audio systems.. Unfortunately there are no stocking Bluesound dealers where I am.
I might order one in the future to give it a try. Of coarse I would Prefer Sonos to come out with a similar offering in an updated Connect to save me the money:)
Roon integration ( Roon version 1.3) just announced. Nice:)
Update:)
It may appears that Roon may have a solution. . From another forum "We do support lossless streaming up to the limits of the hardware, which are 48kHz/16bit audio."
Great news if true. You just have to use alternative software.
It may appears that Roon may have a solution. . From another forum "We do support lossless streaming up to the limits of the hardware, which are 48kHz/16bit audio."
Great news if true. You just have to use alternative software.
If you are arguing that discussions around volume normalisation in general should be in a different thread, then you may be right.
Only because there is an easy workaround to the subject of this thread: by using Connect in variable mode below 87% of max volume, whereby no dynamic range is lost and the song can be heard as recorded.
Sorry for the hope folks. Roon does not have any control over the hardware only what it sends to it.
To throw in my 2c...
I'm personally fairly disappointed with Sonos making this change without considering the impact on users, many of whom purchased the Connect precisely because it was bit-perfect. I understand, to an extent, why they did it (implementing such a compression scheme makes sense when volume normalisation is involved). However, doing so without maintaining what many would consider to be baseline functionality of the Connect in same way (such as a user option to disable) seems like a huge misstep.
I do hope they address this in a future update to avoid reputational damage.
I should add that, whilst I have a Connect in my collection of Sonos kit, it's currently not in use and is certainly not likely to be used in anything approaching an "audiophile" setup in the imminent future: that sort of tweaking and tinkering is in my past. So I'm not directly impacted by this, but I understand that others are.
Cheers,
Keith
I'm personally fairly disappointed with Sonos making this change without considering the impact on users, many of whom purchased the Connect precisely because it was bit-perfect. I understand, to an extent, why they did it (implementing such a compression scheme makes sense when volume normalisation is involved). However, doing so without maintaining what many would consider to be baseline functionality of the Connect in same way (such as a user option to disable) seems like a huge misstep.
I do hope they address this in a future update to avoid reputational damage.
I should add that, whilst I have a Connect in my collection of Sonos kit, it's currently not in use and is certainly not likely to be used in anything approaching an "audiophile" setup in the imminent future: that sort of tweaking and tinkering is in my past. So I'm not directly impacted by this, but I understand that others are.
Cheers,
Keith
The chances are they won't get that big and, in which case they can be a viable alternative to Sonos, catering to a niche of customers who want something over and above what Sonos does.
Couple of questions:
1. As to bits not being perfect - I don't really care since I don't hear the difference and I suspect that many that do, started doing so after this thread started. But I take your point about bits and what would have made a useful difference to me is availability of volume normalisation; has that really improved consequent to this change? I haven't found that to be the case either, unfortunately, but that maybe because what I am looking for is normalisation across mixed source playlists and that may be a different problem altogether.
2. Sonos went mainstream largely at the expense of Squeezebox, I imagine. Because, with Sonosnet, and less tinkering to set up/stabilise, it offered a better alternative to a large part of the user base, is my guess. Other than Hi Res, what does Bluesound do that Sonos does not? On the negatives, it does not offer mesh architecture, and costs a lot more.Expanding the question, is there anyone visible at this time that threatens the Sonos castle in home audio? Echo?
How do you know you don't hear a difference? You can't A/B between DSP on and off.
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