It looks like the Connect is no longer bit-perfect. Here's my evidence: let's discuss this.
First, I constructed a wav file of pink noise with amplitude ramping up from zero to digital max and back to zero.
I play this through my Connect and record the SPDIF output from the coax output into my PC.
The recording uses a Scarlett 8i6 audio interface set to use the Connect as master clock.
I record into a DAW (Sonar) multiple times - all instances are identical.
However, this recorded signal is not quite the same as the original wav file - it can be up to -21dB different.
See https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8od479xo9hi5el/connect_diff.PNG?dl=1
Note the expanded scale on the difference (third) track.
It looks like the difference gets larger when the signal is larger. To confirm this, I import the
original and difference files into Matlab and plot the raw data (difference vs original). There is clearly audio compression
happening here. See https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1yq6wcqafvnhaj/diff_vs_orig.png?dl=1
The scale is such that digital maximum is 1.
There also appears to be a slight bias when the waveform is negative and the signal is below the
compression threshold. See an expanded version of the previous plot
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9001tl9mkle4wly/diff_vs_orig_zoom.png?dl=1
Happy to answer questions about the method and conclusions.
Cheers, Peter.
p.s. Volume is set to fixed - I haven't tried variable.
In a loopback test (8i6 out from DAW to 8i6 in, no Sonos gear involved), I get bit-perfect cancellation.
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And is noticeably silent here. Either their engineers don't know what is happening or they are choosing silence.
I just replied to that thread. We just hadn't read it yet.
Normalization for tracks does work, but we'd be happy to help take a look with you to make sure it's working right with your system.
We are talking about a minor change to the audio when applying normalization.
Short answer, no. When players are grouped together the audio that's sent across the system is the original digital file of the track, retrieved from the source by the group coordinator and then distributed untouched to the others. Each player uses its own DAC and settings on that original file once they receive it.
We are talking about a minor change to the audio when applying normalization.
Normalization is ALWAYS applied, therefore the minor change (compression) is also ALWAYS applied. I can defeat normalization by either removing the tags or using wav files. I CANNOT defeat the compression. It applies to everything I play through a Connect, and presumably every other component of Sonos.
Surely any hi-fi gear that forcibly altered the signal in this way would be reviewed poorly and eventually fail in the hi-fi marketplace. The best audio gear tries to reproduce the signal without adding its own coloration. Surely the Connect should be capable of passing through the digital signal faithfully and unaltered.
Please consider adding a switch so we can choose to disable the coloration, or at least return to the old setting where fixed volume output bypassed it.
Cheers, Peter.
Normalization for tracks does work, but we'd be happy to help take a look with you to make sure it's working right with your system.
When players are grouped together the audio that's sent across the system is the original digital file of the track, retrieved from the source by the group coordinator and then distributed untouched to the others. Each player uses its own DAC and settings on that original file once they receive it.
Ryan, very good, thank you. How do we proceed with seeing if things are ok with my system? It will be easy enough for me to set up a playlist with just two ripped tracks, one of which plays louder than the other. Do you need to know which tracks I will be using in advance?
Peter, to the second paragraph in the quote, this should mean that in grouped mode, your weakened bass problem ought to disappear when the Connect to digital input on Peachtree set up is in use and reappear when the Connect is not in grouped mode? Although Ryan confuses me by saying each player uses its own DAC. In your set up, the Connect obviously will not. Or does it mean that you will still see the bass issue via the Connect fed zone, but the other zones won't see it even if the Connect is the group coordinator? And in a later post you refer to this being a minor change - going by your description of how it affects bass quality, it is a MAJOR issue even if the compression may be minor?
Normalization for tracks does work, but we'd be happy to help take a look with you to make sure it's working right with your system.
When players are grouped together the audio that's sent across the system is the original digital file of the track, retrieved from the source by the group coordinator and then distributed untouched to the others. Each player uses its own DAC and settings on that original file once they receive it.
Ryan, very good, thank you. How do we proceed with seeing if things are ok with my system? It will be easy enough for me to set up a playlist with just two ripped tracks, one of which plays louder than the other. Do you need to know which tracks I will be using in advance?
I just opened up an incident for you with the support team to take a closer look into this. They'll want to see a couple tracks where you've noticed trouble like you described above and will likely want to remote in to take a look at the metadata of the tracks themselves. The reference number is: 160913-001584. I'll see if a technician can reach out to you directly, but feel free to give us a call on our support line with that number too.
My comment in regards to the DAC was if you were grouping the CONNECT with a PLAY:5 for example, the PLAY:5 would do it's own conversion. In short, when you group players they each get the same starting digital stream from the original source without any alteration done. Once the player gets it they will take it from there as if you'd played the audio right to the unit. tl;dr Grouping doesn't affect audio quality of a stream.
Hey Ryan - Thanks for the clarification. Please note that I think it unlikely the Connect DSP is responsible for the bass issues I hear, but I can't rule it out because I can't turn the DSP off.
How do we make progress on this issue? Should I open a support ticket?
Cheers, Peter.
How do we make progress on this issue? Should I open a support ticket?
Cheers, Peter.
How do we make progress on this issue? Should I open a support ticket?
Cheers, Peter.
We're looking into it on our end here right now. We may want to get a ticket started up for you as well, but I'll let you know on that.
I just managed to get hold of a pre-2011 Connect (ZD90) in perfect working order. Happy camper here! If Sonos doesn't solve this, I guess those connect units might become more expensive on the second hand market as the issue becomes more widely known (so far I've yet to read about it on any of the audiophile websites). So I'm happy I got one now. Will install it in my system in a few days.
Btw, I've done some more listening tests, where I compare the sound from my connect-fed monitors+sub to the sound from my Sennheisers. It seems to me that the biggest audible change is about volume normalization between tracks. The compression of peaks CAN be audible on some tracks, but it's still relatively subtle. What is not subtle, however, is what happens when I play full orchestral pieces where some of the tracks/movements are much more loud and explosive than the rest. Much of this between-tracks dynamics gets lost with the volume normalization applied. And according to the information from Ryan from Sonos here in the forum, this volume normalization is not applied to the pre-2011 Connects.
I do realize that I'm in the clear minority here - as a person who listens critically to very dynamic classical music, and who possesses a system that is actually able to do justice to such dynamics. What I perceive as a problem, will not be a problem for 99 percent of sonos users. It might even be that this volume normalization makes life easier for most people out there. I don't know. Still, I would have liked Sonos to cater to people like me as well, and I'll watch over this new/old connect as if my life depended on it 😉
Btw, I've done some more listening tests, where I compare the sound from my connect-fed monitors+sub to the sound from my Sennheisers. It seems to me that the biggest audible change is about volume normalization between tracks. The compression of peaks CAN be audible on some tracks, but it's still relatively subtle. What is not subtle, however, is what happens when I play full orchestral pieces where some of the tracks/movements are much more loud and explosive than the rest. Much of this between-tracks dynamics gets lost with the volume normalization applied. And according to the information from Ryan from Sonos here in the forum, this volume normalization is not applied to the pre-2011 Connects.
I do realize that I'm in the clear minority here - as a person who listens critically to very dynamic classical music, and who possesses a system that is actually able to do justice to such dynamics. What I perceive as a problem, will not be a problem for 99 percent of sonos users. It might even be that this volume normalization makes life easier for most people out there. I don't know. Still, I would have liked Sonos to cater to people like me as well, and I'll watch over this new/old connect as if my life depended on it 😉
Hi Kumar
Sonos DOES respond to volume normalization information contained in the metadata of individual songs. However, this CANNOT be turned off, so songs that follow on from each other on an album can have a volume jump.
In your audiophile days, if an amplifier was advertised as modifying all inputs by applying a 1dB compression, would you buy this in preference to one that was advertised as being a "straight wire with gain"? The Connect applies such a compression without the option to disable it.
Cheers, Peter.
Sonos DOES respond to volume normalization information contained in the metadata of individual songs. However, this CANNOT be turned off, so songs that follow on from each other on an album can have a volume jump.
In your audiophile days, if an amplifier was advertised as modifying all inputs by applying a 1dB compression, would you buy this in preference to one that was advertised as being a "straight wire with gain"? The Connect applies such a compression without the option to disable it.
Cheers, Peter.
Oh come now Peter, aren't you stretching things a tad?
The author of the report said this himself on the other thread on this site:
"Press releases are put forward by organisations with the aim of trying to get the press to cover their story, and as such are a combination of spin, marketing, opinion and fact. In this case, it was written by a press officer at my university, and then AES issued another similar one." I have cut/pasted, no spin!
This isn't just a random release on the net that the author can be excused for being ignorant about, but is from the author's organisation! You really think that the author, if he did not make these fully fleshed out and attributed in quotes to him statements, also remained ignorant of what his own organisation is saying what he said, and that too in italicised quotes? In this day and age? And then also continued to remain ignorant of the AES doing the same thing? Knowing as he says he does that press releases are used for spin? Is it then that his organisation is the one doing the clever shill and our author is just the naive scientist labouring honestly in the lab, not knowing what his evil superiors are doing to spin his report?! Give me a break!
I am not saying this isn't possible, just making my assessment of the probabilities. And why can I not say that if he really did not know how his organisation is spinning his report, that is in itself an indictment of sorts?
As to the Connect DAC - before I boxed my legacy audiophile kit after buying Sonos, I did a lot of testing, admittedly imperfect, but good enough for my decision making. I compared the sound quality from analog output of the Connect with that from my SACD player, both into high end amplification and Kind of Blue was one of the test albums. I found no difference in quality and decided that I did not need the SACD player. Nor have I heard of anyone that has been able to pick out the Connect DAC in a well constructed level matched listening test against any other DAC - not even ones with five digit price tags. I therefore believe that the Connect DAC is audibly straight enough. As are many others - indeed I strongly suspect that a modern DAC is no longer a factor, having become a reliable commodity at a low price point.
Ironically, going by your findings, it would appear that those that don't think so, and want to use the Connect into another fancier looking external DAC may be ill served by Sonos while doing this, with audibly poorer sound quality than they would obtain via the analog outputs on the Connect!
Quoting myself here, in response to what may be happening with the Connect, because I doubt that any changes have occurred to the sound signature from the analog output of my Connect.
As another audiophile in the sense that I often listen to just music late at night, I have noticed no change in my sound since the time of the quoted tests. The last quoted sentence is a guess, no experience to back it up.
PS: And to highlight a word in the quote that may be skipped over - " level matched". If the signal voltage from the external DAC is higher than that from the Connect analog outputs by even a very small amount, it will be enough to have the amplifier set at the same volume control position to deliver sound levels that will be higher than more than 0.2 dB in comparison to when the analog outputs of the Connect are in use. Once that happens, all bets are off; a 0.2db level difference is all it takes for louder to sound better, including all the jargon that is used to describe better. There is a simple solution to this of course - the volume control on the amp needs to be set a little higher when using the analog outputs of the Connect to restore sound quality levels to that delivered by a DAC with a higher signal output voltage.
Two letters and an email to Sonos about the issue that started this thread have gone unanswered. Four months ago, Sonos staff member, Ryan S. suggested that an option to allow a bit perfect stream was being considered. It's overdue and I'm tired of waiting.
It wasn't this thread that started me wondering why my music started sounding worse. I moved during October and November of 2015 and was remodeling for months. When I could finally listen to music, I thought maybe it was the smaller room or wallboard walls instead of the log ones in my house. I hung a quilt behind the sofa, moved things around and finally gave up and didn't listen to much music. Then I stumbled upon this thread.
I used the word "audiophile" in my first post and one member assumed I must be one of those that will spend $500 on a gold-plated wall socket and other such things. No, I mean audiophile in the ancient 1960s sense of wanting something better than a Zenith console to play my records. I have Peachtree Nova SE65, used Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MKII speakers and a used Oppo DV-981DH DVD/CD player. I sit myself in the sweet spot on my sofa, turn down the lights and do nothing but listen to the music. That's audiophile to me.
I used to rip my CDs with iTunes to Apple Lossless. Now I use dbPoweramp and clean up the tags with MP3TAG. I highly recommend both, not so much of a difference in quality, if any (the bit streams compare identical), but to better organize and maintain a collection.
I started searching around for a replacement that will do what the Sonos Connect was sold to me to do when I bought it in early 2015. I won't go into a sales pitch for what I found, but it is very important to say that the high-end audio store (Hanson Audio Video in Kettering, Ohio) where I bought the Connect was unaware of the change made in the November 2015 release. They, and all of the salespersons at the dealers I spoke with (Crutchfield, for example) were unaware and, concerned. To quote one, "We sell a lot of Sonos Connects as bit-perfect streamers."
A good friend recently bought a Connect based on my recommending it well over a year ago. He returned it and it trying a Yamaha WXC-50. I have decided to go with an Auralic Aeries Mini and a 240GB internal SSD drive I installed. I was no longer using the drive with my PC. No network except to tell the Aeries what to play. So far, so good. It is night and day better than the Sonos. Simply stunning. Clarity and bass bowled me over. I'll stop there, no audiophile terms.
I have a Sonos PlayBar for my TV in the great room (living, dining and kitchen combined) and will still use it for that and casual music listening (mostly Pandora) like house cleaning, cooking or parties. It’s plenty good enough for that. Sonos makes quality products, but it's obvious their priorities are not my priorities.
Your needs might be different, but I refer back to the post that started this thread. It is about users of the Connect that bought it to deliver a bit perfect stream. Most of us who bought it for that purpose don't care that it has a DAC and analog output. It that's not you, please don't flame me for agreeing with the first post, expecting a resolution and running out of patience.
It wasn't this thread that started me wondering why my music started sounding worse. I moved during October and November of 2015 and was remodeling for months. When I could finally listen to music, I thought maybe it was the smaller room or wallboard walls instead of the log ones in my house. I hung a quilt behind the sofa, moved things around and finally gave up and didn't listen to much music. Then I stumbled upon this thread.
I used the word "audiophile" in my first post and one member assumed I must be one of those that will spend $500 on a gold-plated wall socket and other such things. No, I mean audiophile in the ancient 1960s sense of wanting something better than a Zenith console to play my records. I have Peachtree Nova SE65, used Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MKII speakers and a used Oppo DV-981DH DVD/CD player. I sit myself in the sweet spot on my sofa, turn down the lights and do nothing but listen to the music. That's audiophile to me.
I used to rip my CDs with iTunes to Apple Lossless. Now I use dbPoweramp and clean up the tags with MP3TAG. I highly recommend both, not so much of a difference in quality, if any (the bit streams compare identical), but to better organize and maintain a collection.
I started searching around for a replacement that will do what the Sonos Connect was sold to me to do when I bought it in early 2015. I won't go into a sales pitch for what I found, but it is very important to say that the high-end audio store (Hanson Audio Video in Kettering, Ohio) where I bought the Connect was unaware of the change made in the November 2015 release. They, and all of the salespersons at the dealers I spoke with (Crutchfield, for example) were unaware and, concerned. To quote one, "We sell a lot of Sonos Connects as bit-perfect streamers."
A good friend recently bought a Connect based on my recommending it well over a year ago. He returned it and it trying a Yamaha WXC-50. I have decided to go with an Auralic Aeries Mini and a 240GB internal SSD drive I installed. I was no longer using the drive with my PC. No network except to tell the Aeries what to play. So far, so good. It is night and day better than the Sonos. Simply stunning. Clarity and bass bowled me over. I'll stop there, no audiophile terms.
I have a Sonos PlayBar for my TV in the great room (living, dining and kitchen combined) and will still use it for that and casual music listening (mostly Pandora) like house cleaning, cooking or parties. It’s plenty good enough for that. Sonos makes quality products, but it's obvious their priorities are not my priorities.
Your needs might be different, but I refer back to the post that started this thread. It is about users of the Connect that bought it to deliver a bit perfect stream. Most of us who bought it for that purpose don't care that it has a DAC and analog output. It that's not you, please don't flame me for agreeing with the first post, expecting a resolution and running out of patience.
No, he's remaining an employee
Give it a couple of weeks and send another mail to the new man
So much for my letter to the CEO, he quit. Followed the 100 laid off employees out the door, I guess.
I just noticed this thread and I can concur that there is something wrong
with the Connect. I have been streaming AIFF rips via itunes (from a NAS)
to an airport express, to an emotiva DAC via the optical output on the air
express. I've bee doing this for years.
I purchased a Sonos Connect a few weeks ago, with the idea that I would get
the improved user experience that Sonos advertises, but with the same audio
quality by streaming the same AIFF files to the Sonos then to the Emotiva
Dac via the optical output on the Sonos. Note that I have fixed volume
turned on, no EQ or cross fade.
The Emotiva Dac has two optical inputs, so it is easy to do an A/B
comparison.
The bottom line is that going through the air express is sounds far better
to me. The Sonos is less detailed, almost muddy. Not very pleasing at all.
It seems to me that the Sonos is transcoding along the path, which is quite
unexpected given what I have read.
Oh well, convenience matters and when I am in the mood to listen at more
then background volume, I can use the air express path.
with the Connect. I have been streaming AIFF rips via itunes (from a NAS)
to an airport express, to an emotiva DAC via the optical output on the air
express. I've bee doing this for years.
I purchased a Sonos Connect a few weeks ago, with the idea that I would get
the improved user experience that Sonos advertises, but with the same audio
quality by streaming the same AIFF files to the Sonos then to the Emotiva
Dac via the optical output on the Sonos. Note that I have fixed volume
turned on, no EQ or cross fade.
The Emotiva Dac has two optical inputs, so it is easy to do an A/B
comparison.
The bottom line is that going through the air express is sounds far better
to me. The Sonos is less detailed, almost muddy. Not very pleasing at all.
It seems to me that the Sonos is transcoding along the path, which is quite
unexpected given what I have read.
Oh well, convenience matters and when I am in the mood to listen at more
then background volume, I can use the air express path.
Sorry, I still don't get you. In my view, both statements obviously are opinions, I don't need the "in my opinion" caveat to be attached to each to infer them to be so. And if challenged, both need to be backed up. I see that jgatie is doing just that with respect to the second, so I will not add anything there except to say that he is making a fine point of distinction that needs to be discerned.
My question is... how did Sonos allow the Connect to NOT become bit-perfect with the Fixed Volume setting?! Surely someone, somewhere would have realized that a change being made would affect the audio output, and that the Connect - the one Sonos device that has been reported as having bit-perfect digital output - would no longer be able to make that claim. If they decide that they want to still allow the level adjustment for the fixed volume setting, there should at least be the option to disable it, returning bit-perfect output for those that want it.
On the other hand, many have wanted some kind of volume leveling in the speakers... and while Sonos has never said anything about it, it appears that they've been working on it.
On the other hand, many have wanted some kind of volume leveling in the speakers... and while Sonos has never said anything about it, it appears that they've been working on it.
Just for the heck of it, let me give what would my response have been if asked!
I'd have said that the author of a study that found and reported some perceived differences at times between Hi Res and CD based on a meta analysis of reports, some of admittedly dubious quality that his study relied upon, allowed himself to be directly quoted as saying things in favour of Hi res found by his study, that his own study did not admit to have found. And this was cleverly done, with the admittedly wrong quote only accepted to be so where and when challenged.
How's that, Ump?!
I'd have said that the author of a study that found and reported some perceived differences at times between Hi Res and CD based on a meta analysis of reports, some of admittedly dubious quality that his study relied upon, allowed himself to be directly quoted as saying things in favour of Hi res found by his study, that his own study did not admit to have found. And this was cleverly done, with the admittedly wrong quote only accepted to be so where and when challenged.
How's that, Ump?!
This is where I discovered the 1dB compression.
My CD rips are all in ALAC, while iTunes purchases are in AAC, so the volume normalisation information is available to Sonos, I should think. I just don't think that Sonos is using this effectively in playback.
I hear what you are saying about bass frequency effects that you are seeing and how volume increases don't/won't work selectively. And if using Music Eq is what is needed to restore things - even if that is possible here - then the Connect has stopped being the straight wire, I agree.
A question though: do you think that the measured compression of 1dB that you are seeing will cause this selective frequency effect? Or is there something more that is happening here?
None of those imply stating something that is incorrect. My organization also puts out press releases with the same four qualities. This is done by science journalists after talking to the authors of the work. The copy is not always checked by the authors before release due to press deadlines. But I strongly believe that where at all possible a press release should always be checked by the author of the work, and this is one lesson to be learned here. Even after checking, I know of cases where the sub-editor of a newspaper chose headlines or picture captions that were just plain wrong. This occurred after any chance of checking.
On the flip side, there is also an obligation on the part of a reader of internet information to check the primary source before getting too carried away by what they have read. In this case it is the published paper itself. The press release contained a link to the paper, which is freely available. Anyone who is mislead by the press release has not done their due diligence and checked the primary source.
So, to summarize, both sides of the argument need to get their checking act together 🙂
Bigot can mean the same in the UK too, but we are talking about hifi, not races or cultures.
I presumed that people were intelligent enough to understand the context of the discussion we were having.
"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as in those who believe in Hi Res) with hatred and intolerance" 😃
Maybe I should have said 'insular' instead, or 'snob' but then most people don't understand the word 'snob' many think it means stuck up or posh.
I think the problem maybe that Bigot has been used so much in the last few months with what has been happening with Brexit and Trump that many maybe only know it from hearing it in a derogatory way.
It is the same when you call someone ignorant, so many people get all annoyed and say things like "Don't call me stupid!". Which is always kind of ironic.
I presumed that people were intelligent enough to understand the context of the discussion we were having.
"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as in those who believe in Hi Res) with hatred and intolerance" 😃
Maybe I should have said 'insular' instead, or 'snob' but then most people don't understand the word 'snob' many think it means stuck up or posh.
I think the problem maybe that Bigot has been used so much in the last few months with what has been happening with Brexit and Trump that many maybe only know it from hearing it in a derogatory way.
It is the same when you call someone ignorant, so many people get all annoyed and say things like "Don't call me stupid!". Which is always kind of ironic.
Peter, in my old audiophile days, I would not touch even wireless with a barge pole, let alone what you refer to. Straight enough to not be heard as bent is good enough now.
I am wiser today and I don't care now about anything that I can't hear. Even more so, if it means added convenience and music access.
More importantly, if as you say Sonos responds to normalization information, why do I get volume changes from one album to another, both ripped or bought in iTunes? Or from ripped CDs to Apple Music streams?
I am wiser today and I don't care now about anything that I can't hear. Even more so, if it means added convenience and music access.
More importantly, if as you say Sonos responds to normalization information, why do I get volume changes from one album to another, both ripped or bought in iTunes? Or from ripped CDs to Apple Music streams?
"Straight enough to not be heard as bent..." - what a great phrase and philosophy - I love it!
The background to my concerns is this: I bought a new amp recently - a Peachtree Nova 125SE to replace a Cambridge Audio Azur 640a. I believe amps are all much the same, but the Cambridge was cutting out randomly, and the Peachtree has digital inputs that allow me to ditch an external DAC and clear up some cables. Surprisingly, the Peachtree sounds much better through my speakers (an old pair of Duntech Marquis). Two friends commented on this independently - it is a very clear difference. This was using the analog outputs of the Connect. When I tried the digital outputs of the Connect into the Peachtree DAC input, the bass on my favourite test song was substantially worse. It had lost a lot of punch. I tried a number of other songs, and the same difference was clear. So I decided to test the difference between the two setups. The first step in this test was to ensure the Connect passed the digital signal through unchanged. It doesn't. So now I'm left wondering whether the Connect is the cause of the problem.
The Connect should be "a straight wire with gain" so it cannot be suspected of being a source of audio problems.
To your other point. Coincidentally, my partner just complained that there was a substantial difference in volume between tracks she was listening to (not a single album - a Deezer "best of"). I think volume normalization can help somewhat, but it's not perfect. It is an amplitude correction that cannot fully correct for RMS differences caused by compression. Different albums with different mastering engineers use different degrees of compression. Almost all modern songs peak at very close to 0dB, but can have very different loudness as judged by RMS. No amount of amplitude correction can fully compensate.
Cheers, Peter.
The background to my concerns is this: I bought a new amp recently - a Peachtree Nova 125SE to replace a Cambridge Audio Azur 640a. I believe amps are all much the same, but the Cambridge was cutting out randomly, and the Peachtree has digital inputs that allow me to ditch an external DAC and clear up some cables. Surprisingly, the Peachtree sounds much better through my speakers (an old pair of Duntech Marquis). Two friends commented on this independently - it is a very clear difference. This was using the analog outputs of the Connect. When I tried the digital outputs of the Connect into the Peachtree DAC input, the bass on my favourite test song was substantially worse. It had lost a lot of punch. I tried a number of other songs, and the same difference was clear. So I decided to test the difference between the two setups. The first step in this test was to ensure the Connect passed the digital signal through unchanged. It doesn't. So now I'm left wondering whether the Connect is the cause of the problem.
The Connect should be "a straight wire with gain" so it cannot be suspected of being a source of audio problems.
To your other point. Coincidentally, my partner just complained that there was a substantial difference in volume between tracks she was listening to (not a single album - a Deezer "best of"). I think volume normalization can help somewhat, but it's not perfect. It is an amplitude correction that cannot fully correct for RMS differences caused by compression. Different albums with different mastering engineers use different degrees of compression. Almost all modern songs peak at very close to 0dB, but can have very different loudness as judged by RMS. No amount of amplitude correction can fully compensate.
Cheers, Peter.
I think volume normalization can help somewhat, but it's not perfect. It is an amplitude correction that cannot fully correct for RMS differences caused by compression
To the first part; I am sure you know that if you are comparing two bits of kit/sources that have one ending up sounding as little as 0.2dB lower than the other, the one with the lower level will yield sound that is perceived by humans to be thin and lacking body - what you describe as lacking punch may well be that. Now I am not saying that what you heard must be on account of the same reason and there was no other reason for lack of sound quality present, but to say the opposite needs sound levels to be matched to within 0.2dB, something that can only be achieved by instruments. After this is done, if you can still reliably pick out the two sources in a blind test, only then can you conclude that there is something different between the two sources and that the sound from the Connect is bent enough to be heard as such. Note that I am not saying whether it is, or it isn't; I am just saying what needs to be in place first to say so in a way that will be replicable and conclusive of something that is both measurably AND audibly out of whack.
Obtaining the same, measured to be within 0.2dB, sound levels from the Peachtree with digital outputs of the Connect may need the Peachtree volume control to be at a higher setting than when using the analog outputs of the Connect. If thereafter the sound cannot be audibly distinguished, the Connect is still audibly enough of a straight wire, even if it doesn't measure to be so on an instrument. If it can audibly be distinguished after the precise level matching, it isn't. And to avoid expectation bias, you should not know what outputs are in use. Admittedly, not an easy test to set up, but the only reliable and replicable one found thus far, AFAIK. As Hydrogen Audio also continues to say.
As to the part about volume normalisation, if I was to generalise, I'd say with the HighNote label for jazz, I find that I always have to intervene to reduce the volume a little in a mixed playlist. And for Apple music, I have to have the volume control at a higher setting than for ripped/downloaded from iTunes music from a NAS, so a mixed source shuffled playlist from NAS+Apple delivers constantly varying levels of sound and is therefore inconvenient. Should Sonos not be able to fix something like this? I have asked the questions elsewhere, but I am not optimistic of a response.
I agree that comparison of minor differences requires careful technique. The bass punch I'm referring to is not minor. You are right that the digital and analog cases require different volume settings. I have tried subjective matching as I switch. Sometimes I get it too loud, sometimes too soft. The conclusion is always the same - analog output sounds punchier. So, I think this is a case where the difference is sufficiently large that small volume mismatches will not confound the comparison. But as a scientist I remained somewhat skeptical. I was hoping to record the digital and analog signals into my recording software to do a more rigorous comparison. This was when I discovered that the digital signal was not bit-perfect. So I am stuck on this issue for the moment.
If you play the same track ripped via itunes, and streamed from Apple, do you notice a difference?
I just recorded part of a song while auditioning within itunes and compared to my ripped CD version. All this was in the digital domain on a PC. If I left soundcheck on in itunes preferences, the peak was about 3dB quieter than the CD version but the RMS was the same. If I turned soundcheck off, the peak was about the same but the RMS was about 3dB larger. What this means is that itunes is different to the CD version - I suspect itunes applies compression. The itunes version is also out of phase with my CD version - this isn't the case when I use Sonos rather than itunes.
As you can see, there are some interesting issues with streaming music. It's why I prefer ripped CDs from a NAS. If only the Connect would have an option to play them back as intended!
One final point - this is not reducing my enjoyment of music at all. I have listened to so much good music lately and enjoyed it all thoroughly. Some of it comes from podcasts at 128kbps, so I can't be all that fussy! If you get a moment, listen to a track called All Day All Night by the group River Whyless from their latest album We All The Light.
Cheers, Peter.
If you play the same track ripped via itunes, and streamed from Apple, do you notice a difference?
I just recorded part of a song while auditioning within itunes and compared to my ripped CD version. All this was in the digital domain on a PC. If I left soundcheck on in itunes preferences, the peak was about 3dB quieter than the CD version but the RMS was the same. If I turned soundcheck off, the peak was about the same but the RMS was about 3dB larger. What this means is that itunes is different to the CD version - I suspect itunes applies compression. The itunes version is also out of phase with my CD version - this isn't the case when I use Sonos rather than itunes.
As you can see, there are some interesting issues with streaming music. It's why I prefer ripped CDs from a NAS. If only the Connect would have an option to play them back as intended!
One final point - this is not reducing my enjoyment of music at all. I have listened to so much good music lately and enjoyed it all thoroughly. Some of it comes from podcasts at 128kbps, so I can't be all that fussy! If you get a moment, listen to a track called All Day All Night by the group River Whyless from their latest album We All The Light.
Cheers, Peter.
Leave Chicks out of this, I think he/she has some issues. 😉
All I was saying, is if you don't see why someone would want a player that offers say Hires or MQA or bit perfect, then why bother entering the thread of those that do want that to tell them they are wrong and it is not needed?
There are so many threads that I don't agree with, but I don't feel the need to go in there and say to those posting "You're wrong!!".
Try and bite your tongue, let those that want these options ask for them?
So yeah, if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".
Moderation edit: Please watch the language. - Ryan S.
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