It looks like the Connect is no longer bit-perfect. Here's my evidence: let's discuss this.
First, I constructed a wav file of pink noise with amplitude ramping up from zero to digital max and back to zero.
I play this through my Connect and record the SPDIF output from the coax output into my PC.
The recording uses a Scarlett 8i6 audio interface set to use the Connect as master clock.
I record into a DAW (Sonar) multiple times - all instances are identical.
However, this recorded signal is not quite the same as the original wav file - it can be up to -21dB different.
See https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8od479xo9hi5el/connect_diff.PNG?dl=1
Note the expanded scale on the difference (third) track.
It looks like the difference gets larger when the signal is larger. To confirm this, I import the
original and difference files into Matlab and plot the raw data (difference vs original). There is clearly audio compression
happening here. See https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1yq6wcqafvnhaj/diff_vs_orig.png?dl=1
The scale is such that digital maximum is 1.
There also appears to be a slight bias when the waveform is negative and the signal is below the
compression threshold. See an expanded version of the previous plot
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9001tl9mkle4wly/diff_vs_orig_zoom.png?dl=1
Happy to answer questions about the method and conclusions.
Cheers, Peter.
p.s. Volume is set to fixed - I haven't tried variable.
In a loopback test (8i6 out from DAW to 8i6 in, no Sonos gear involved), I get bit-perfect cancellation.
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Leave Chicks out of this, I think he/she has some issues. 😉
All I was saying, is if you don't see why someone would want a player that offers say Hires or MQA or bit perfect, then why bother entering the thread of those that do want that to tell them they are wrong and it is not needed?
There are so many threads that I don't agree with, but I don't feel the need to go in there and say to those posting "You're wrong!!".
Try and bite your tongue, let those that want these options ask for them?
So yeah, if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut the fuck up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".
I will post what I like when I like. I don't ask you to shut up, you shouldnt be asking me to shut up. Thats the way things work.
If you play the same track ripped via itunes, and streamed from Apple, do you notice a difference?
To the last easy part - yes I notice the difference, I think Apple Music is streamed to deliver a lower sound level in general.. This obviously isn't a problem when I am playing any one source - it just takes a one time setting of the volume control on the controller for the desired sound level to be consistently delivered - except for some CDs that are recorded hot. Now I haven't had the time to see if the same music, played via Apple also ends up louder to the same degree compared to other music from Apple, I need to get around to do this some day.
As to the first part - subjective matching doesn't work if test results are to be valid. A 0.2dB difference in sound level has been proved to yield punchier sounding results, so I am not sure this can be dismissed by saying that the punchiness is so large that it could not have been caused by sound level differences; seems like a cart before the horse thing to me, a non scientist. But more importantly, why are you stuck as you put it? Just use analog. And if you want to use digital for reasons of other conveniences, leave the volume control on the amp at a higher setting. No?
Deliberate intent? In my humble opinion, nobody could make such a gross mistatement of the truth accidently, therefore the quote itself is a lie. It is also my opinion that as an expert, even if Mr. Reiss didn't give the quote, allowing it to stand without correction is perpetuation of a lie.
You dont have to like my opinion. That's ok. I, unlike others, won't run you out of the thread or report you to the mods just because you disagree with me.
You dont have to like my opinion. That's ok. I, unlike others, won't run you out of the thread or report you to the mods just because you disagree with me.
if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut the $#@#$ up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".
Language, language...but let me see if I understand what you are saying.
On a forum paid for and administered by a manufacturer that does not seem to be looking in your direction, you want a private sand pit to play in only with like minded buddies that will endorse your views, that others that think different should not enter.
Maybe the title of the thread should clearly indicate this preference in that case? I am not saying that doing this will deliver all that you expect, but it is certainly worth an attempt. It should also prevent you from entering threads that do not indicate such a preference.
Perhaps Sonos can earmark a section of the forum for all such threads, titled " Audiophile Corner, for discussion on unverified subjective and possibly biased claims". Will that serve?
It is pertinent to point out that the elaborate and attributed quote was made by the organisation that employs Mr Reiss, and therefore almost certainly was part of the package that distributed the paper. Don't scientists have a responsibility of knowing the manner in which their work is being distributed to the world?
IMHO - damn, that is so easy - here it is not as if some obscure internet poster has put this spin on the work; ignorance of that is excusable, but this as well?
I don't for one moment think that this community delivers more than a small fraction of the market information that Sonos obtains to develop its strategies. Based on what Sonos says is the purpose of the community, I also don't think that Sonos expects anything different either.
An excellent case in point - the strategic shift to voice control. Almost no one here saw the need for that one coming to that extent. Or if they did, no one wrote about that here as some have been doing about audiophile Connects and Hi res for over a decade now. Indeed - while other older regulars here will correct me if I am wrong - I don't think that any of the major product moves that Sonos has made in the last ten years saw a significantly expressed clamour here that led to those moves. I refer to things like active speakers, room response DSP and the like.
At one time there was an ideas section in the community that people like you could have used to efficiently convey what you think Sonos needs to know. As far as I know, it has been shut down. But if it is still working, find it and use it to tell Sonos that you want audiophile Connects, Hi Res and MQA. Or whatever else that you want from Sonos.
If Sonos thinks protected sandpits are required for fulfilling any of their business interests, I am sure these will be provided.
Now that's an interesting thought. I didn't realise that you have both ALAC and AAC versions of the same track on a local hard-drive. I thought you were comparing streaming to a local rip. If you have access to both versions locally, and they have different volumes, you can use mp3tag to look at the volume normalization tags. And you could also calculate the peak values and RMS. Better still, I could do that if you can find a song that exhibits this problem that I also have the CD for. Then I could purchase the itunes version and make a comparison. Best chance is a Miles Davis song - I have a lot of his stuff. I also have a fair bit of ECM jazz from some years ago.
I think it unlikely that the 1dB compression is causing this issue, but I can't rule it out either because I can't turn it off! However, look-ahead compression could theoretically act to reduce bass transients (which often have the most energy and hence largest peaks). My suspicion all along has been that the Connect DAC is better than the Peachtree, although most audiophiles would laugh at this statement. A slight confession here: I have recently bought an external DAC that comes highly recommended and is not too expensive (Schiit Bifrost). The idea was to settle the DAC issue once and for all (and this is all good fun as a retirement hobby). However, because the Connect doesn't pass the signal through unchanged, it makes this comparison much more difficult.
Cheers, Peter.
I think it unlikely that the 1dB compression is causing this issue, but I can't rule it out either because I can't turn it off! However, look-ahead compression could theoretically act to reduce bass transients (which often have the most energy and hence largest peaks). My suspicion all along has been that the Connect DAC is better than the Peachtree, although most audiophiles would laugh at this statement. A slight confession here: I have recently bought an external DAC that comes highly recommended and is not too expensive (Schiit Bifrost). The idea was to settle the DAC issue once and for all (and this is all good fun as a retirement hobby). However, because the Connect doesn't pass the signal through unchanged, it makes this comparison much more difficult.
Cheers, Peter.
I don't see one person in here "shutting down" your request for an audiophile Connect. In fact, the only thing shutting down your request for an audiophile Connect is the fact you have personally changed the topic of this thread into a plea for safe spaces, instead of a request for an audiophile Connect. Maybe if one could stay on topic, the request could rise above the noise.
To Kumar, a boom box Sonos like the Play:5 was requested. Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry. There are certainly more hotly* requested items such as audiophile quality versions of Sonos components that have been ignored, or were expressly shot down by Sonos. Number one with a bullet amongst these items is support for hi-resolution audio. It was definitively stated on ask.com that it will not be supported, and verified by Tom Cullen in an article that Sonos does not believe in hi-res, especially higher scan rates. They obviously know the hit (or lack thereof) they are taking from that statement.
*hotly meaning a couple people writing hundreds of posts, not 100 people writing one or two.
To Kumar, a boom box Sonos like the Play:5 was requested. Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry. There are certainly more hotly* requested items such as audiophile quality versions of Sonos components that have been ignored, or were expressly shot down by Sonos. Number one with a bullet amongst these items is support for hi-resolution audio. It was definitively stated on ask.com that it will not be supported, and verified by Tom Cullen in an article that Sonos does not believe in hi-res, especially higher scan rates. They obviously know the hit (or lack thereof) they are taking from that statement.
*hotly meaning a couple people writing hundreds of posts, not 100 people writing one or two.
My suspicion all along has been that the Connect DAC is better than the Peachtree, although most audiophiles would laugh at this statement..
Peter, I am sorry if I did not explain correctly - I don't have the same track in both, I have bought AAC versions only of music I did not have in my now static CD collection. Now if you are referring to Miles, I have a lot of his music in both formats, but not the same in both. Something Else for instance is a ripped ALAC CD, while the other classic 50's album of his, Round Midnight, is a AAC iTunes purchase, and when both play from my NAS, there is no noticeable sound difference. But I recently bought a new HighNote album of Ron Carter and Houston Person, Chemistry, in AAC and that plays very noticeably louder. As do all other iTunes purchases of the same duo, a favourite. And as do other HighNote albums bought on iTunes - Person, as well as from other artistes on that label. Given this, if there is any purpose to be served in you looking at any of these files, let me know, I will be happy to provide them.
As to the Connect DAC - before I boxed my legacy audiophile kit after buying Sonos, I did a lot of testing, admittedly imperfect, but good enough for my decision making. I compared the sound quality from analog output of the Connect with that from my SACD player, both into high end amplification and Kind of Blue was one of the test albums. I found no difference in quality and decided that I did not need the SACD player. Nor have I heard of anyone that has been able to pick out the Connect DAC in a well constructed level matched listening test against any other DAC - not even ones with five digit price tags. I therefore believe that the Connect DAC is audibly straight enough. As are many others - indeed I strongly suspect that a modern DAC is no longer a factor, having become a reliable commodity at a low price point.
Ironically, going by your findings, it would appear that those that don't think so, and want to use the Connect into another fancier looking external DAC may be ill served by Sonos while doing this, with audibly poorer sound quality than they would obtain via the analog outputs on the Connect!
To Kumar, a boom box Sonos like the Play:5 was requested. Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry. There are certainly more hotly* requested items such as audiophile quality versions of Sonos components that have been ignored
*hotly meaning a couple people writing hundreds of posts, not 100 people writing one or two.
That's about in line with what I thought - that the community or the earlier forum, has had relatively a small influence in the last ten years on the Sonos product portfolio development that has been developed from a much broader based market intelligence and assessment, allied to their sense of what the market needs. They were still caught napping on voice, as they have admitted, but no one here delivered any heads up of that gap to them either.
The only visible thing that I can see has been based on inputs here seem to be the controller/UI changes from time to time. And the 5 unit, as you have pointed out, though there again there has to have been a lot more driving it than community feedback.
As a community member that should bother me if I did not realise that we are just a drop in the ocean of feedback that Sonos obtains from many places to feed its business/product strategy development.
Do I personally care about it? Not anymore... my Connect now serves as an input-only. But obviously there are others that do.
I don't care about it either, for the same reason and in just one zone where I use it to drive the analog inputs of a legacy amp that is still working well.
But the inadequate way volume normalisation works just now affects all units and all zones, including those served by play units. That's the one I am looking for some response from Sonos.
Well, there were some active threads about Alexa/Echo, nothing like the 100s of volunteers for the private beta though. There were also requests for a Sub and some sort of video capability. So I wouldn't say this forum (or the others) had little to no influence. I'm 100% positive that it isn't the only, nor the most important influence. Marketing studies and plain old individual talent and vision would be #1 and #2 on that list.
One thing is for sure, repeatedly posting a request over and over and over again, while simultaneously drowning out your own request with demands for a safe space to repeatedly make that request, has never been successful. The hue and cry from the tiny vocal minority asking for things like hi-res support, audiophile quality gear, or any of the other wappinghigh like requests has never had any influence. As I said, Sonos knows the difference between hundreds of posts from a couple people and a couple of posts from 100's of people.
One thing is for sure, repeatedly posting a request over and over and over again, while simultaneously drowning out your own request with demands for a safe space to repeatedly make that request, has never been successful. The hue and cry from the tiny vocal minority asking for things like hi-res support, audiophile quality gear, or any of the other wappinghigh like requests has never had any influence. As I said, Sonos knows the difference between hundreds of posts from a couple people and a couple of posts from 100's of people.
When I read the thread over I found nothing definitive about why Sonos "degraded" the Connect. It can't have been for volume normalisation because that, as far as I can see, still doesn't work.
So why degrade the digital output at all?
And does this have any effect on sound quality where Connect is the first player in a group that is wirelessly broadcasting a digital stream to other players in the group? Is that stream not bit perfect any more? If so, this is a bigger problem than of being one only for such people that are using the Connect wired to the digital inputs of an external DAC? Based on my experience of the Connect used in that mode, I'd say that I haven't noticed any sound quality loss, but I don't have a reference baseline anymore, so I can't be certain!
So why degrade the digital output at all?
And does this have any effect on sound quality where Connect is the first player in a group that is wirelessly broadcasting a digital stream to other players in the group? Is that stream not bit perfect any more? If so, this is a bigger problem than of being one only for such people that are using the Connect wired to the digital inputs of an external DAC? Based on my experience of the Connect used in that mode, I'd say that I haven't noticed any sound quality loss, but I don't have a reference baseline anymore, so I can't be certain!
But was that before Amazon released voice control? That is what I meant - that voice isn't something that was seen as a must have feature by anyone here in a way that prevented Sonos from being blindsided by it.
Neither do I recall seeing any clamour anywhere close to that for hi res/audiophile connects, for something like Trueplay from anyone here that Sonos did do, based on what they thought is a customer requirement. Something that often delivers day v night improvement in sound quality that no one feels the need to challenge via ABX, also because it is easy to toggle it on/off.
Then there was the structured requests/ideas feature on the earlier version of this community - I am guessing that has been discontinued. If so, does that convey anything about the perceived value of the site to Sonos for market feedback purposes?
I guess we now need to turn over the thread back to it's bit perfect Connect subject! The clamour for which does not seem to be getting any response from Sonos either, seeing that it is a 6 month old subject now.
No, there were never any voice control threads prior to Echo. The requests for hi-res capability or audiophile Connects were always from a very vocal, very adamant, and very argumentative few (sound familiar?). There was even an obviously gamed poll about hi-res support that saw dozens of "one-and-done" hi-res fans sign up just to vote, never posting again. Quite different from the Alexa, Spotify, or Google Play Music threads that saw many posters who interacted with the forum.
Back to the bit-perfect Connect. Sonos screwed up. For whatever reason it was implemented, they should allow the user to toggle bit-perfect on/off.
Back to the bit-perfect Connect. Sonos screwed up. For whatever reason it was implemented, they should allow the user to toggle bit-perfect on/off.
For whatever reason it was implemented, they should allow the user to toggle bit-perfect on/off.
Perhaps one day, we will at least see a response, if not a reversal to bit perfect.
On Trueplay, I now recall a faint memory though, that there were a few voices here and there wishing there was a room response DSP on Sonos and I think I remember Chicks as one of those voices.
Userlevel 7
+26
This thread got quite out of hand on the personal attacks, and I think everyone knows it. For the sake of the conversation, we haven't deleted the blocks of comments at the moment. Please remember to not attack other users or we will have to remove posts and take further moderation actions as needed. Let's keep it friendly, even if you disagree. We don't need to go slinging insults to get our points across.
Then there was the structured requests/ideas feature on the earlier version of this community - I am guessing that has been discontinued. If so, does that convey anything about the perceived value of the site to Sonos for market feedback purposes?
I guess we now need to turn over the thread back to it's bit perfect Connect subject! The clamour for which does not seem to be getting any response from Sonos either, seeing that it is a 6 month old subject now.
The dedicated Ideas area was removed because we found that a lot of other threads had suggestions in them too and fit in a lot of other places, and often times, one request thread has many requests in it. The Community team here reads every thread anyway, and we make sure to pass on any of the ideas on to other teams as we see them. No need for a dedicated section, we handle the data aggregation on our end.
I've been watching this thread since the creation and have been talking with the player team about this request or question (whichever you'd like to call it). They are looking into the CONNECT output, but I don't have any details on that I can share. I'll let you all know if there's anything to bring up.
Thanks for keeping the conversation on track everyone.
I guess we now need to turn over the thread back to it's bit perfect Connect subject! The clamour for which does not seem to be getting any response from Sonos either, seeing that it is a 6 month old subject now.
The dedicated Ideas area was removed because we found that a lot of other threads had suggestions in them too and fit in a lot of other places, and often times, one request thread has many requests in it. The Community team here reads every thread anyway, and we make sure to pass on any of the ideas on to other teams as we see them. No need for a dedicated section, we handle the data aggregation on our end.
I've been watching this thread since the creation and have been talking with the player team about this request or question (whichever you'd like to call it). They are looking into the CONNECT output, but I don't have any details on that I can share. I'll let you all know if there's anything to bring up.
Thanks for keeping the conversation on track everyone.
The dedicated Ideas area was removed because we found that a lot of other threads had suggestions in them too and fit in a lot of other places, and often times, one request thread has many requests in it. The Community team here reads every thread anyway, and we make sure to pass on any of the ideas on to other teams as we see them. No need for a dedicated section, we handle the data aggregation on our end
Just to add to this, the original suggestions forum was pretty much created and maintained by the original User Moderators. At that time, although there were Sonos staff watching the forum, it was a very light touch approach. Often we had to raise issues to Sonos support via back channels. Since the switch to the new forum, Sonos staff are participating much more actively, to the extent that User Moderators aren't needed.
I will point out that maintaining the old format forum was a lot of work and conflict, especially as a large number of users never read, or abided by the rules when posting, even though the rules were there to benefit the community and keep things organised. A handful of people seemed to violently object when their posts were moved or merged as they felt they were more important than the community or that the rules didn't apply to them.
I'll add that, although it started out as an "Ideas" forum, in reality there were very few original ideas, and it was more useful as a way for people to discuss specific feature requests.
Frankly, though it was fun for a while, I'm glad to see the back of it and I can't blame the Sonos folks for not want to continue with it.
Anyway, back to the scheduled programming...
Cheers,
Keith
Hmmm, I seem to recall a certain member asking for TruePlay well in advance of its rollout, lol. It was met with some intelligent thoughts by the informed posters here, thankfully.
https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/dsp-room-correction-43916
https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/dsp-room-correction-43916
https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/dsp-room-correction-43916
That's the thread I remembered when I said "Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry."
That's great news. Thanks Ryan.
The dedicated Ideas area was removed because we found that a lot of other threads had suggestions in them too and fit in a lot of other places, and often times, one request thread has many requests in it. The Community team here reads every thread anyway, and we make sure to pass on any of the ideas on to other teams as we see them. No need for a dedicated section, we handle the data aggregation on our end.
I've been watching this thread since the creation and have been talking with the player team about this request or question (whichever you'd like to call it). They are looking into the CONNECT output, but I don't have any details on that I can share. I'll let you all know if there's anything to bring up.
I was referring to what Sonos had in place in parallel to the old Forum, where suggestions for new features were logged in with formal responses from Sonos to each - under consideration, under implementation, not being considered at present - on those lines, as far as I can recall. Is that what you meant when you refer to "dedicated ideas area"?
And your assurance that every thread is read and all ideas passed on ought to reassure those that think that their requests for Hi Res, Audiophile Connect and MQA are being prevented from reaching Sonos. Given the very short shelf life of every post here, perhaps a general message of reassurance on these lines ought to be conferred permanence in some way via a sticky - assuming of course that people read those.
I look forward to the OP reaction to your response on the bit perfect thing.
I just opened up an incident for you with the support team to take a closer look into this. They'll want to see a couple tracks where you've noticed trouble like you described above and will likely want to remote in to take a look at the metadata of the tracks themselves.
Thank you, Robbie is in touch with me and I will post outcome details, once there is one.
Userlevel 7
+26
I spoke in general terms because on ask.sonos.com we had Ideas which were as you said, categorized into statuses, and as Majik mentioned, there was the Sound Ideas board on forums.sonos.com. The statuses left a lot to be desired and when we moved to this new platform we didn't carry them over.
It's been plenty long enough to fix this. First proven in July of last year. I have made up my mind to sell my Connect and get something else if I don't see this corrected (or at least an announcement) by the end of this month, January 2017. Along with it will go all recommendations of Sonos as a serious music system.
There are plenty of good solutions to play my music library and one of the lossless streaming services (I use Tidal) for serious listening. For the sources that Sonos is devoting all of their resources towards (Spotify, Amazon Alexa, etc.), I can play with my PlayBar in the great room as background music. Or on a Bluetooth speaker wherever.
Just guessing, but I think the Connect was just an afterthought anyway, likely sharing a subset of the software in the Connect Amp, which is why we have the output stream being mucked with. Sonos has not demonstrated they are serious about audiophile systems.
There are plenty of good solutions to play my music library and one of the lossless streaming services (I use Tidal) for serious listening. For the sources that Sonos is devoting all of their resources towards (Spotify, Amazon Alexa, etc.), I can play with my PlayBar in the great room as background music. Or on a Bluetooth speaker wherever.
Just guessing, but I think the Connect was just an afterthought anyway, likely sharing a subset of the software in the Connect Amp, which is why we have the output stream being mucked with. Sonos has not demonstrated they are serious about audiophile systems.
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