In the aftermath of the CR100 debacle it may be helpful to discuss the direction and methods taken by Sonos management to achieve their end goal of retiring the CR100 by force and the impact on and perception of customers future buying decisions
They still have not made it clear in any believable way why they forced this issue which leaves many people puzzled and angry at the rendering useless of their legally owned equipment.
Personally , this is a first for me . I have never owned a product previously that I have bought that has been rendered useless by the creators period,. Far less easy to swallow is the subterfuge of the battery non issue to cover an ulterior motive. This makes the company Sonos look untrustworthy at best . If you have a reason for doing this , spit it out and let people know. I believe that I, as the purchaser gets to decide when it is time to retire my own possession. I have a belief that quality equipment that was sold as a quality product to prospective buyers should be subject to end of life decision only by the buyer and no one else.
I struggle with the management decisions taken that force me to re-evaluate my investment in their goods within my home.
Prior to the CR100 execution , I viewed my home audio system as an asset to my home , something that simply worked and worked well with minimal intervention required from me which is pretty much what I expect from audio equipment . Now I view the lifespan of this investment as something which looks like is beyond my control even if the equipment is still functioning regardless of my desire to maintain that .
The support aspect of this situation where Sonos staff went into hiding and avoided direct questions from concerned customers has to go down as a low point in any companies record in dealing with their best ambassadors.
These are just a few points that caused me to raise this topic for discussion regarding the ethicacy and morality and integrity of the current Sonos operation...any one of the the issues I have listed above would make Sonos or any other company ineligible for consideration for future investment either in business or in domestic life for this individual.
What do others think....? Please keep the thread social.
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Userlevel 7
+22
The thread has no subject
I don't frequent forums generally , it has been interesting and I hoped to learn something about business and decisions and technology moving forward.
I have learnt from experience not to have these expectations these days, and I now choose price points taking limited lifespans into account.
I live in India, a major market for even folks like Mercedes and BMW. Whose expensive cars do not give trouble free service in our environment for more than 3-4 years. And the electronics/mechatronic elements are very complex, and can only be fixed via expensive replacements - not repairs. I would never buy any of their products, because good old Toyota is also available at much lower price points for purchase and repairs and functionally does 90% of what fancier cars can do on our roads. In the case of Sonos, price point differences between a play 1 unit and cheaper throwaway kit isn't significant for my pocket over a ten year lifespan, so buying Sonos where the application needs are met isn't a problem for me.
I don't like the general situation, but what's to be done other than to learn to live with it and deal with it in a pragmatic way? On the ethics of this behaviour, my view is that one can't pick on any single company, sellers and buyers are equally responsible for this state of affairs; the fancy cars also sell here to folks that are quite happy buying a new car every four years, as an example.
To the second part of the quote above, any expectation that Sonos would participate here in a way that will help you learn was misplaced. I doubt any other company would so participate either. And other than Sonos, I doubt anyone else here can contribute significantly to meet your stated expectations.
What exactly is the purpose of this thread beyond just ranting then? And I am not sure that a company that sells work pants for over a hundred dollars is as innocent as it claims to be. For instance:
"But North Face and Patagonia are both wrestling with a more consequential paradox, one that is central to contemporary consumerism: we want to feel morally good about the things we buy. And both companies have been phenomenally successful because they have crafted an image that is about more than just being ethical and environmentally friendly, but about nature, adventure, exploration – ideas more grandiose than simply selling you a jacket, taking your money and trying not to harm the earth too much along the way. But the paradox is that by presenting themselves this way, they are selling a lot more jackets. In other words, both companies are selling stuff in part by looking like they’re not trying too hard to sell stuff, which helps them sell more stuff – and fills the world with more and more stuff."
Italics added for emphasis; IMO, just clever marketing.
"But North Face and Patagonia are both wrestling with a more consequential paradox, one that is central to contemporary consumerism: we want to feel morally good about the things we buy. And both companies have been phenomenally successful because they have crafted an image that is about more than just being ethical and environmentally friendly, but about nature, adventure, exploration – ideas more grandiose than simply selling you a jacket, taking your money and trying not to harm the earth too much along the way. But the paradox is that by presenting themselves this way, they are selling a lot more jackets. In other words, both companies are selling stuff in part by looking like they’re not trying too hard to sell stuff, which helps them sell more stuff – and fills the world with more and more stuff."
Italics added for emphasis; IMO, just clever marketing.
Idle curiosity and the need to reinforce my cynicism about ALL corporates led me to reports about problems of unethical exploitation of labour used in the outsourced manufacture of Patagonia apparel. With a lot of talk from the company about how it is going to fix this, with comment from industry insiders to the effect that these are systemic causes in third world - or even Taiwan located - apparel manufacture, that make it very difficult to do so, if not impossible.
But why not just eliminate the entire problem in one fell swoop by relocating all manufacture to the US? Or even more, to California?! But that would eat up the profits/and need even more clever marketing to sell the same clothes at a higher price point than 100 dollars a work pant! Which US consumers will perhaps not be willing to part with, which will mean lower profits for Patagonia. So, third world outsourced manufacturing strategies, with the systemic ethical issues therein accepted as a compromise.
Also, quote:
Patagonia in fact has no factories at all: all manufacturing is contracted. I find this very odd. A company so concerned about the earth is not actually settled upon it, its business not in any place.
In a frank and thoughtful statement, Patagonia accepts that there are strong environmental arguments for localism; that manufacturing and sales ideally ought to be closely linked (http://www.patagonia.com/blog/2012/04/patagonia-clothing-made-where-how-why/). Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that a localism which links design and manufacturing favours innovation (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21714330-they-dont-make-em-any-more-politicians-cannot-bring-back-old-fashioned-factory-jobs), as amply demonstrated by Zara (http://www.ethicsoffashion.com/fast-fashion-localism/).
In an ironic twist, a video explaining Patagonia’s care in choosing factories shows the firm’s head of CSR, Cara Chacon, sporting an Eat Local t-shirt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WexueycQgmY). It’s hard to see why it’s morally important to eat locally if it isn’t important to manufacture locally. Is there some important moral difference between food and clothing?
Unquote.
Cynicism reconfirmed, in spades.
But why not just eliminate the entire problem in one fell swoop by relocating all manufacture to the US? Or even more, to California?! But that would eat up the profits/and need even more clever marketing to sell the same clothes at a higher price point than 100 dollars a work pant! Which US consumers will perhaps not be willing to part with, which will mean lower profits for Patagonia. So, third world outsourced manufacturing strategies, with the systemic ethical issues therein accepted as a compromise.
Also, quote:
Patagonia in fact has no factories at all: all manufacturing is contracted. I find this very odd. A company so concerned about the earth is not actually settled upon it, its business not in any place.
In a frank and thoughtful statement, Patagonia accepts that there are strong environmental arguments for localism; that manufacturing and sales ideally ought to be closely linked (http://www.patagonia.com/blog/2012/04/patagonia-clothing-made-where-how-why/). Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that a localism which links design and manufacturing favours innovation (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21714330-they-dont-make-em-any-more-politicians-cannot-bring-back-old-fashioned-factory-jobs), as amply demonstrated by Zara (http://www.ethicsoffashion.com/fast-fashion-localism/).
In an ironic twist, a video explaining Patagonia’s care in choosing factories shows the firm’s head of CSR, Cara Chacon, sporting an Eat Local t-shirt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WexueycQgmY). It’s hard to see why it’s morally important to eat locally if it isn’t important to manufacture locally. Is there some important moral difference between food and clothing?
Unquote.
Cynicism reconfirmed, in spades.
Userlevel 7
+2
I say again, good grief. If that's all you've got, no wonder the need for an echo chamber. :8
TJRL,
now you know the word "Trolls" is quite divisive on these boards.... you could get slapped for offending and/or hurting the feelings of someone on this board....
of course the ones likely most offended will truly be the real mythological Trolls, they are not very happy being bunched with this lot.......
now go to your room.... a little time out with a CR100 and nice music should calm you down......
You know that the CR100 ain't a sentient being... right?
You may view your dog or cat as a member of the family, but in the eyes of the law, your pet is personal property, plain and simple, just like paintings and patio furniture.
https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-commentary/pets-as-property.html
Not so even in a third world country like India, where human rights are not the strongest. Kill your own pet dog and if found guilty of doing this without permitted reasons, one can get into serious legal distress here. It isn't like vandalising a painting that belongs to you.
What's this got to do with Sonos though?
Userlevel 5
+5
You may view your dog or cat as a member of the family, but in the eyes of the law, your pet is personal property, plain and simple, just like paintings and patio furniture.
https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-commentary/pets-as-property.html
Not so even in a third world country like India, where human rights are not the strongest. Kill your own pet dog and if found guilty of doing this without permitted reasons, one can get into serious legal distress here. It isn't like vandalising a painting that belongs to you.
What's this got to do with Sonos though?
Those laws are not for pets. Those laws are for animals. Pets are personal property. Your pet can be confiscated and destroyed against your will, by law. If you are going to quote or respond to me, then you need to read my post and the link you quoted. If you don't want to read the link, then don't respond. Responding with a question that was already answered in my post is not productive, and can be considered trolling.
You also missed this:
Userlevel 5
+5
You may view your dog or cat as a member of the family, but in the eyes of the law, your pet is personal property, plain and simple, just like paintings and patio furniture.
https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-commentary/pets-as-property.html
Not so even in a third world country like India, where human rights are not the strongest. Kill your own pet dog and if found guilty of doing this without permitted reasons, one can get into serious legal distress here. It isn't like vandalising a painting that belongs to you.
What's this got to do with Sonos though?
My post answering this in more detail got deleted (!?!) but to sum it up: Clearly you didn't read my post, so I'm going to assume that you are just trolling. Nothing new.
The law covering *animal cruelty* is separate from law regarding pets. Your pet can be confiscated and destroyed by law. Pet food can kill your animal with no repercussions to the pet food industry. A veterinarian can kill your pet with no repercussions. Same way SONOS has reached into my home and killed my CR100. Which is completely unethical and amoral, SONOS has no right to kill my device remotely.
Which is equivalent to this possibility:
Which is entirely possible because
The CR100 is not equivalent to a living, breathing creature.
Sorry, an Indian vet could not do this in India. He/she could lose the license in addition to punitive damages if this is done for reasons that are not good enough. In your country, perhaps he could do what you say.
If you want to offer analogies, be sure to offer good universal ones.
And in the case of the Cr100, you have killed it by choosing to upgrade. Your call, not that of Sonos.
... I am curious to have the answer to this question: If the way forward suggested by Sonos is followed to keep the CR100 usable, what will the system controlled by the CR100 no longer do, that it was able to do when the CR100 was bought?
Ask this question in the "Save the CR100" thread and I am sure it will get an answer.
This thread is titled "Sonos Company Ethicacy, Morality and Integrity Core Values?" I have taken that to be a slightly wider question about companies in general and to just use Sonos as an example of what companies can and do do.
So we can look at some of things Sonos has done in the past not to rehash the issues but rather to look at the trend and results and see what we think.
All big questions but then the OP started this thread to discuss; Ethics, Morality and Integral Core Values - All very big themes!! ;)
Sure they are big themes, but these are more suitably discussed in the context of behaviour that better demonstrates these - good behaviour of the kind Johnson and Johnson showed over the Tylenol poison injections or bad on the lines depicted in Erin Brockovich. The behaviour examples of Sonos used as an example have very little to do with any big theme.
For instance, I could complain and I very often do about Sonos not releasing Alexa skills in India over 6 months after Amazon released Alexa here (as I also complain very strongly about the spam issue here to the extent of rubbing Sonos Staff the wrong way). While doing so for Australia, where Alexa was released after India. But I don't see this as an integrity issue; Sonos merely sees Australia as a bigger market than India, although I think they are wrong in this. But these are just business judgement calls, and just because the calls are inconvenient to me does not mean that Sonos is unethically exercising its judgement in this manner. I also believe that Sonos is often plain incompetent, but what has that to do with ethics and the rest of the high sounding themes? Every large company is blessed with lots of incompetents, it is inevitable with scale.
And the reason for putting the quoted question in this thread is that if the Cr100 can still be used henceforth in all the ways it was able to be used when it was bought over ten years ago - though not in ways available after free upgrades to the system henceforth - then it certainly does not merit being referred to in this thread as the OP has done. To use the CR100 as an example of what companies can do and do where these big themes are concerned is misplaced; the much lauded Patagonia would be a better example of corporate hypocrisy, IMO. For instance, while Sonos and Patagonia both outsource all manufacturing to low cost countries, apparel subcontracted manufacture is bound to have much more exploitation of labour than will have the high tech kind needed by Sonos.
Note that regardless of the alleged noble intentions of the OP that have supposedly little to do with the Cr100, the thread is really just one more that seeks to rant about the Cr100 subject. With people even saying war is declared on Sonos for this reason; a classic example of an ineffectual rant.
A classic example of Sonos incompetency - I just wrote a long reply to TJRL and then when I sought to edit it for a minor correction, the entire post vanished. It will resurface in a while, but it explains that incompetence that is inevitable in every large corporation, including the irritating kind that makes posts vanish, cannot be used to jump to conclusion about big themes. I will leave the rest of the argument to be made visible when the post resurfaces.
You may view your dog or cat as a member of the family, but in the eyes of the law, your pet is personal property, plain and simple, just like paintings and patio furniture.
https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-commentary/pets-as-property.html
From your own link used in support of your claim, a quote:
" And already, in the criminal law, society has implicitly recognized the qualitative difference between animals and property by enacting animal cruelty laws.
These laws prohibit the torture of domestic animals, even if the victimized animal belongs to the torturer. You may rip apart your sofa, if you like, but you are not allowed to do the same to your dog."
Not quite like patio furniture as you say then. Which isn't a surprise and the linked article is as old as 2003. I suspect things will have moved on to a greater recognition of sentience in animals since then.
A good third party summary of the issue that supports the last statement above:
"Sonos has supported legacy hardware better than many companies recently, and 13 years seems a fair lifespan for a device that is ultimately replaceable for free.
And if you really want to keep using it, you could ignore any future Sonos updates and take the risk with that liable-to-get-hot battery."
Don't kill it if you don't want to. Enough said.
But shouting that Sonos has killed the CR100 and deserves therefore to be killed is just mindless ranting.
"Sonos has supported legacy hardware better than many companies recently, and 13 years seems a fair lifespan for a device that is ultimately replaceable for free.
And if you really want to keep using it, you could ignore any future Sonos updates and take the risk with that liable-to-get-hot battery."
Don't kill it if you don't want to. Enough said.
But shouting that Sonos has killed the CR100 and deserves therefore to be killed is just mindless ranting.
Sorry Kumar, but the part that you quote Sonos as saying about ignoring future upgrades came much later in the debacle after they had been rumbled as to peddling the untruth about the safety of the battery.
I note that you said that you had not followed the CR100 story and I don't blame you for that, but if you had you would be aware that the statement that you quote came only after they had been caught in a lie. That is where the untruth and the peddling came in , not their issuance after the initial lie.
It's far from mindless ranting , it's an examination of the actions of a company caught in a straightforward lie.
Without being confrontational I could easily state that blind acceptance as displayed a lot on these boards could be construed as mindless.
The summary at the beginning of your last post also contains inaccuracies that should be pointed out with respect to the "device that is ultimately replaceable for free' part .
It's not replaceable for free because there is no similar device on the market unless of course you are referring to tablets, phones which are definitely not the same as the dedicated controller. Anyway I have no wish to go down CR100 thread territory and continue with things that to quote another poster have been "discussed exhaustive"
I started the thread to debate company policy and actions in the aftermath of what I personally view as a large step away from an acceptable business practice, but it's not possible to discuss the real issues if people do not face up and address the real facts.
I have no real interest in the Sonus product other than it needs to do what I bought it for . I only ventured in here because of others actions, I don't really need to say anymore on this. I hope I don't see you here in the future lamenting or justifying the destruction of your ZP'S:)
I note that you said that you had not followed the CR100 story and I don't blame you for that, but if you had you would be aware that the statement that you quote came only after they had been caught in a lie. That is where the untruth and the peddling came in , not their issuance after the initial lie.
It's far from mindless ranting , it's an examination of the actions of a company caught in a straightforward lie.
Without being confrontational I could easily state that blind acceptance as displayed a lot on these boards could be construed as mindless.
The summary at the beginning of your last post also contains inaccuracies that should be pointed out with respect to the "device that is ultimately replaceable for free' part .
It's not replaceable for free because there is no similar device on the market unless of course you are referring to tablets, phones which are definitely not the same as the dedicated controller. Anyway I have no wish to go down CR100 thread territory and continue with things that to quote another poster have been "discussed exhaustive"
I started the thread to debate company policy and actions in the aftermath of what I personally view as a large step away from an acceptable business practice, but it's not possible to discuss the real issues if people do not face up and address the real facts.
I have no real interest in the Sonus product other than it needs to do what I bought it for . I only ventured in here because of others actions, I don't really need to say anymore on this. I hope I don't see you here in the future lamenting or justifying the destruction of your ZP'S:)
I have come to the conclusion that people who go on shouting that it was Sonos that killed the CR100 are trolls. Sonos offered an option over three months ago, on Feb 2, that would have allowed this lot to keep the CR100 in use with all the functionality that was present on it when they bought it from Sonos prior to 2009, along with many new features released free thereafter till 2018 Q1. Those that chose not to opt for that option are the ones that did the killing, not Sonos.
It does not take a lawyer to come to this obvious conclusion, just a little application of a rational mind. But it is nice to start a rant with dramatic statements like - Sonos killed my CR 100. By reaching inside my home. Dramatic and attention catching, but grossly inaccurate and a blatant misrepresentation.
It is time to stop feeding these trolls.
It does not take a lawyer to come to this obvious conclusion, just a little application of a rational mind. But it is nice to start a rant with dramatic statements like - Sonos killed my CR 100. By reaching inside my home. Dramatic and attention catching, but grossly inaccurate and a blatant misrepresentation.
It is time to stop feeding these trolls.
Clearly either 1. you don't understand the meaning of *analogy* or 2. you're a lawyer or lawyer-wannabe who enjoys using logical fallacies to further their agenda. (I'm betting on 2.)
Wrong and wrong. I just happen to think straight and am not able to suffer visible logical fallacies, instead of using these to further an agenda as you seem to be clearly fond of doing.
I have come to the conclusion that people who go on shouting that it was Sonos that killed the CR100 are trolls. Sonos offered an option over three months ago, on Feb 2, that would have allowed this lot to keep the CR100 in use with all the functionality that was present on it when they bought it from Sonos prior to 2009, along with many new features released free thereafter till 2018 Q1. Those that chose not to opt for that option are the ones that did the killing, not Sonos.
It does not take a lawyer to come to this obvious conclusion, just a little application of a rational mind. But it is nice to start a rant with dramatic statements like - Sonos killed my CR 100. By reaching inside my home. Dramatic and attention catching, but grossly inaccurate and a blatant misrepresentation.
It is time to stop feeding the trolls.
Clearly either 1. you don't understand the meaning of *analogy* or 2. you're a lawyer or lawyer-wannabe who enjoys using logical fallacies to further their agenda. (I'm betting on 2.)
Wrong and wrong. I just happen to think straight and am not able to suffer visible logical fallacies, instead of using these to further an agenda as you seem to be clearly fond of doing.
I have come to the conclusion that people who go on shouting that it was Sonos that killed the CR100 are trolls. Sonos offered an option over three months ago, on Feb 2, that would have allowed this lot to keep the CR100 in use with all the functionality that was present on it when they bought it from Sonos prior to 2009, along with many new features released free thereafter till 2018 Q1. Those that chose not to opt for that option are the ones that did the killing, not Sonos.
It does not take a lawyer to come to this obvious conclusion, just a little application of a rational mind. But it is nice to start a rant with dramatic statements like - Sonos killed my CR 100. By reaching inside my home. Dramatic and attention catching, but grossly inaccurate and a blatant misrepresentation.
Time to move on from this silly thread.
It does not take a lawyer to come to this obvious conclusion, just a little application of a rational mind. But it is nice to start a rant with dramatic statements like - Sonos killed my CR 100. By reaching inside my home. Dramatic and attention catching, but grossly inaccurate and a blatant misrepresentation.
Time to move on from this silly thread.
It is satisfying to start a tirade with dramatic statements like - Sonos killed my CR 100. By reaching inside my home. Dramatic and attention catching start, but also grossly inaccurate and a blatant misrepresentation and here is why:
Sonos offered an option over three months ago, on Feb 2, that would have allowed people to keep the CR100 in use with all the functionality that was present on it when they bought it from Sonos prior to 2009, along with many new features released free thereafter till 2018 Q1. Those that chose not to opt for that option are the ones that did the killing, not Sonos.
It just takes some straight thinking to come to this conclusion. No further value to add to this thread, so it is time to move on.
Sonos offered an option over three months ago, on Feb 2, that would have allowed people to keep the CR100 in use with all the functionality that was present on it when they bought it from Sonos prior to 2009, along with many new features released free thereafter till 2018 Q1. Those that chose not to opt for that option are the ones that did the killing, not Sonos.
It just takes some straight thinking to come to this conclusion. No further value to add to this thread, so it is time to move on.
Note for Sonos Staff: the continuing silly/incompetent moderation that either you or the Insided filter is doing here is messing up the flow of argument/conversation, as it so often does. Especially when the argument happens on a weekend where the automated filter works but the human responses needed are taking a holiday.
Will you be fixing this old matter that has probably arisen because of the equally old and unresolved spam issue at least before the decade is over?
Will you be fixing this old matter that has probably arisen because of the equally old and unresolved spam issue at least before the decade is over?
so go away, troll.
Nahh, that would involve dealing with a troll:D
So no, SONOS hasn't offered *any* option. A sort of, temporary, "at your own risk," won't last and won't work well one. Not a REAL option.
BUT that is not what this thread is about. I feel VIOLATED that SONOS came into my home and destroyed my property. This violation, this breaking and entering that SONOS committed, is unethical and immoral.
Utter rubbish. For example, the Sonos offered option to prevent YOU from violating YOURSELF merely said this where the batteries were concerned:
"If you do go this route, you are acknowledging the risk of the aging lithium ion battery in your controller."
And just because you don't like the inevitable cons involved in an option that prevents YOU from killing your beloved CR100 does not mean it is not a REAL option.
In any case, there is nothing you can do about this except live with it. Or file a suit if you have the gumption to do more than rant here in a completely ineffectual way.
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