In the aftermath of the CR100 debacle it may be helpful to discuss the direction and methods taken by Sonos management to achieve their end goal of retiring the CR100 by force and the impact on and perception of customers future buying decisions
They still have not made it clear in any believable way why they forced this issue which leaves many people puzzled and angry at the rendering useless of their legally owned equipment.
Personally , this is a first for me . I have never owned a product previously that I have bought that has been rendered useless by the creators period,. Far less easy to swallow is the subterfuge of the battery non issue to cover an ulterior motive. This makes the company Sonos look untrustworthy at best . If you have a reason for doing this , spit it out and let people know. I believe that I, as the purchaser gets to decide when it is time to retire my own possession. I have a belief that quality equipment that was sold as a quality product to prospective buyers should be subject to end of life decision only by the buyer and no one else.
I struggle with the management decisions taken that force me to re-evaluate my investment in their goods within my home.
Prior to the CR100 execution , I viewed my home audio system as an asset to my home , something that simply worked and worked well with minimal intervention required from me which is pretty much what I expect from audio equipment . Now I view the lifespan of this investment as something which looks like is beyond my control even if the equipment is still functioning regardless of my desire to maintain that .
The support aspect of this situation where Sonos staff went into hiding and avoided direct questions from concerned customers has to go down as a low point in any companies record in dealing with their best ambassadors.
These are just a few points that caused me to raise this topic for discussion regarding the ethicacy and morality and integrity of the current Sonos operation...any one of the the issues I have listed above would make Sonos or any other company ineligible for consideration for future investment either in business or in domestic life for this individual.
What do others think....? Please keep the thread social.
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I hope not!!
Sonos have moved their position in the market over the years as you would expect any company to do. But there does seem to be a pattern emerging that makes me feel uncomfortable at times. Going back many years these very forums where changed because, we were advised at the time, of scalability and to make the "user experience" better.
Many forum members offered suggestions and comments (e.g. please bring back a "post preview" option) on the changes but no action was made to accommodate them other than the now familiar "we are listening and your views are important to us".
Roll forward to today and this forum is still a shadow of its formal self, much harder to use as an exchange of ideas and search through, BUT arguably better (than the original forum and "Ask Sonos") for new users who have set-up issues. Back in 2005 there were very few set-up questions on the original forum, but as the Sonos offering evolved so did the complexity of setting things up (SoundBar was so hard that there was a dedicated help-line and very good they were too!). With hindsight you could put forward the argument that Sonos were therefore correct to change the forum even against the desire of the then current user base notwithstanding that the whole look, feel and use of the forum was changed.
So was the aim of that "update" to the original forum to give the users a "better experience" (as advised at the time) or to allow for better set-up solving for new Sonos users (which Sonos knew would become more important over time)?
If the latter, was Sonos morally right not to give the real reason? :?
Have you read through this topic? Be prepared, you won't be able to re-install older apps as well.
That's already been discussed exhaustive in the 'Save the CR100' thread. So, why the new approach – for your amusement only?
Short memory Smilja.?
Let's start with an example when Sonos lied to you.
You asked me for an example of when Sonos lied. I gave you one.
I was hoping to discuss underlying reasons for decisions made and how they affect the consumer and not try to regurgitate the CR100 thread. However your request for an example of a lie to their customer base and your response to me providing the example is taking the thread straight back into the area that we should avoid.
There's no new approach for my amusement. I am far from amused. If you cannot grasp any of the concepts listed in the title of the thread and contribute meaningfully without asking for examples of, to use your own words, things that have been "discussed exhaustive" in the CR100 thread then its probably time for you to re read the posts above and try to understand the point of this thread as separate from the Save the CR100 thread.
Kumar, I agree with much of your post about the throwaway nature of consumer products these days.
I have never had to consider whether my product's life span will be ended by me or by the manufacturer before this event but now it is clear that I will have to evaluate that in future buying decisions.
I first bought Sonos in 2005 I think and have expanded it steadily since then installing in multiple homes and in different countries. When I initially bought the system ,forced obsolescence of the product by the manufacturer itself was not even considered. I like you had previously come from traditional audio systems that just trundle on regardless.
In my initial post I mentioned that this was a first for me to have a manufacturer kill its own product , which for me and others has been a disturbing occurrence raising questions that previously did not exist for me.
I don't inhabit these forums , I am only here because of an action thrust on me, previously I was a happy customer now I am not.
I accept that things move along, technology changes and Sonos must move and stay current but it seems to me that they have placed whatever the goal was in retiring the CR100 ahead of their integrity.
The long term dwellers on this board seem unable or unwilling to address that particular aspect of this debate. I don't understand the devout nature of that position and what the motivation is for such a zeal attached to a manufacturer.
Userlevel 7
+21
Ah so this is just another CR100 thread then 😞
Userlevel 7
+5
I am no longer a Sonos customer, just a user, until the gear can no longer serve MY purpose or Sonos allows me a choice in the Firmware I want to use.
When you want to buy more kit in future for whatever reason, how will you make sure of not facing similar issues with it? What kit maker will treat you different? Including in this issues like lack of repair services some years down the line.
I don't have a CR 100, but I do have close to useless iPod Touch devices that are in working condition, but not supported by Apple. But when I must have a device that only Apple makes that best meets my needs, I will still buy Apple for lack of better alternatives.
Hmm... close to useless?... - here is an absolute example of Sonos losing a sale because I can no longer add any more components to my Sonos system because I'm locked down on 8.3 to preserve my 3 CR100s... - I recently decided to refit out my garage/workshop for some projects that I want to work on throughout this coming summer... - I decided I'd really like to have some music playing whilst I'm working in there, for potentially hours on end...
Until very recently, my immediate solution to that requirement would have been to nip into town & pick up another Play:1 or newer "one"... not any more... - I dug out my old 1st generation iPod touch, which i purchased new in late 2007 (ish), and a no-longer used micro stereo system with an analog audio in, from the loft..
Charged up the ipod, - still works perfectly... hooked it up to itunes on my PC - still recognised & connected perfectly... stuck several hundred tracks on it (it's a 64GB model, so I've still got loads more to add), hooked it all up in a cupboard in the garage (so I can close the door to keep sawdust to a minimum on the kit), and voila... - an 11 year old iPod touch is now my perfectly functional music system in the workshop, at the expense of 1 Sonos sale.
It's a similar age to the CR100's... it has not been bricked by Apple, despite being "no longer supported", and despite having an "ageing lithium ion battery" and despite containing "older generation hardware" that can no longer cope with the processing demands of modern era applications... and yet, it still functions in every way that matters for all of the reasons I bought it in the first place (i.e. to play music)...
That, my friends, is why Sonos is not, and could now never hope to be, the company that Apple is... - Apple will get more of my custom in the future, Sonos will not. End of.
Userlevel 7
+21
I can get people being annoyed because their perfectly serviceable remote is being consigned to the tech rubbish bin against their wishes. I got annoyed when Nokia discontinued a phone the day after launch and support ended 18months later. It put me off the company but I still ended up buying their products again… eventually. The Sonos One and “Alexa Enabled” could have been clearer, although I think Amazon needs to take some blame there too.
However to wish a company to fail and actively encourage that is even more immoral in my eyes. As someone who has worked for a company that has been dissolved it is a traumatic experience that I would not wish on anyone. To target Sonos when they have retired a 10 year old product, for which there are free alternatives, seems harsh in the extreme. Fine sell your kit, and don’t recommend them if asked but to go out of your way to tell others to boycott them? Surely the CR100 is not worth of that extreme a reaction?
However to wish a company to fail and actively encourage that is even more immoral in my eyes. As someone who has worked for a company that has been dissolved it is a traumatic experience that I would not wish on anyone. To target Sonos when they have retired a 10 year old product, for which there are free alternatives, seems harsh in the extreme. Fine sell your kit, and don’t recommend them if asked but to go out of your way to tell others to boycott them? Surely the CR100 is not worth of that extreme a reaction?
Prior to the CR100 execution , I viewed my home audio system as an asset to my home , something that simply worked and worked well with minimal intervention required from me which is pretty much what I expect from audio equipment . Now I view the lifespan of this investment as something which looks like is beyond my control even if the equipment is still functioning regardless of my desire to maintain that .
discussion regarding the ethicacy and morality and integrity of the current Sonos operation...any one of the the issues I have listed above would make Sonos or any other company ineligible for consideration for future investment either in business or in domestic life for this individual.
As to the titled questions:
1. I have never used the CR100, but I find it a little hard to believe that the present model free controllers are so bad compared to it, that the lifespan of the investment in Sonos is affected. Sonos has sold millions of units since they stopped making/selling the CR100, as evidence of this.
2. Even if the lack of morality was to be stipulated, one would be cutting ones nose to spite ones face by not buying more Sonos kit for JUST this reason, unless one found some other maker that behaved differently and also offered all the Sonos features at the same price point. This also isn't like blood diamonds, surely. Or like using underaged labour in third world locations.
That's already been discussed exhaustive in the 'Save the CR100' thread. So, why the new approach – for your amusement only?
To expand on the 909 amp; I bought it new in 2002 and sold it in 2014 once Sonos took over all music duties in the home. Had I kept it, it would have gone back to Quad in about 2020 for new capacitors and a general service, and would have been good for another 20 years.
I don't think I use any products that are built in that way anymore; not even cars. I certainly don't equate Sonos with Quad on this aspect, and Sonos also justifies this by being a lot cheaper than Quad.
I don't think I use any products that are built in that way anymore; not even cars. I certainly don't equate Sonos with Quad on this aspect, and Sonos also justifies this by being a lot cheaper than Quad.
Yes it may appear odd to someone who has difficulty understanding a concept because of a predisposed position.
Regardless of my understanding of the word lie. Sonos perjured themselves to their detriment by claiming there was a battery issue which they subsequently back peddled ineptly when called out on. Integrity and morality?
Why not just state what is actually happening instead of trying and failing with an untruth?
Anyway what the actual discussion is about is in the thread title, we don't want to go down the road of the CR100 thread
I
Regardless of my understanding of the word lie. Sonos perjured themselves to their detriment by claiming there was a battery issue which they subsequently back peddled ineptly when called out on. Integrity and morality?
Why not just state what is actually happening instead of trying and failing with an untruth?
Anyway what the actual discussion is about is in the thread title, we don't want to go down the road of the CR100 thread
I
Lets discuss the morality of a company who are happy to lie to customers . Are you comfortable buying from a company that openly lies ?
To the first part, I respect your approach, and I wish I could follow it. I cannot in many cases because the old product, and I largely refer to appliances and electronics kit here, can no longer be easily repaired. And living in a world that thrives on throwaway, it isn't easy to march to a different drum where one does not have the necessary skills to do so.
I bought Sonos with no expectations of useful life from it beyond 5-10 years, given the nature of its construction and non availability of parts/service. Before that, my high end audiophile kit was, in theory, bought with longer life expectations; ironically, being a victim of the audiophile equipment churn, none was used as long as I have used Sonos kit since 2011.
But if I was to now look to buy only such products that are not of a throwaway nature, much of my purchasing would be a severe challenge. Products that will outlive me are either not available or are very expensive.
To the second part of "open lying", since I do not have the CR100, I haven't followed this subject closely enough to have identified any open lies, so I can't answer the question directly. I do know I have an iPod touch and a Sonos iPod dock that are not in use anymore because of Apple. I don't like it, but that seems to be how things are these days. From what I have seen of Sonos, they certainly seem to be doing more than Apple to maintain usability of old kit and perhaps more than many others in home audio, via ensuring backward compatibility in their new features; all of the kit that I bought from Sonos since 2011 other than the dock is fully usable and some like the play 1 continue to get new features and tweaks, free. On this subject therefore, I have no issue with Sonos even while recognising that the kit is not built to the same standards of, as an example, my now sold Quad 909 amplifier.
I do agree that Sonos is guilty in its marketing of either not telling the full story, or using slogans that contain exaggerated statements; but not more so than other makers of audio and other products. One has learnt to not believe all the marketing jazz in every such case; if I was to not buy from all such that do this, there would be almost none I could buy anything from.
Your understandig of the term "lie" is quite odd.
Perhaps you also missed the bit in the starter thread where I said "Far less easy to swallow is the subterfuge of the battery non issue to cover an ulterior motive. This makes the company Sonos look untrustworthy at best "
Perhaps you missed the battery issue .
Let's start with an example when Sonos lied to you.
I can see why you still feel like you could purchase from Apple again, Apple did not "brick" your IPod Touch, so in my book, the same issue does not apply.
Steve, with your skills, you are well placed to keep old equipment in service, but you must know you are a rare exception. And one that is getting even more rare given the nature of design/construction of modern kit, compared to amps of yesteryear that were more easily repaired with parts that were more easily available. Sonos, as do all other makes, do not have too many like you in their target market. And I doubt you will be differently served by any other make when you decide you need more kit.
As to the iPod touch, it was being used largely as a Sonos Controller host; now I cannot so use it, because it will not access iTunes to get the latest Controller version. So, I can no longer use it in the manner. To me, someone has done the same thing to it as has been done to the CR100.
In Home audio, the days when people happily used decades old kit with the same remote - where the remote was even part of the kit - are gone, swept away with the "growth based on planned obsolescence" model everywhere.
Hopefully, those holding on to their CR100s are being consistent across their consumption behaviour, as it relates to clothes, cars, homes, computers, appliances and the rest. Unfortunately, this is very hard to do for every such purchase, and Sonos is just a small part of the shift in everyone's behaviour. And core value questions in this context therefore need to be framed much more broadly.
And if everyone were to hypothetically switch overnight away from this model, GDP growth everywhere will not just slow down, but will go negative for a long while, leading to a corresponding drop in average income levels.
The Earth will probably heave a sigh of relief though.
Some good points for discussion there Kumar, which I was hoping that this thread would generate. Unfortunately it seems that the good old boys can't grasp the subtleties of this particular discussion and insist on trying to bookend this topic into the save the CR100 where it certainly does not belong.
Kumar mentions the shift in consumer behaviour and how that effects economic growth. Personally I am still on the old model not the new model of planned obsolescence. I cannot think of a purchase or a consumption in our household where planned obsolescence has ever been factored in. We buy into products where we can see potential for long term usage with the ability to repair or refurb as necessary . I dislike the throwaway concept and would never buy into something knowingly that is of that nature.
In my starter thread I stated that this exposure to the destruction of my property was a first for me and has changed my perception of a previously well regarded company.
I am certain that I am not alone in this perception. I can accept change and change in technology and adapt as I see fit to suit my goals as a consumer.
What I will never accept is being lied to by a company who have taken my money and have now decided that they are changing the rules to fit their goals. That action does not fit in with my road map and the lying from management gets them excluded from my future bid list.
Lets discuss the morality of a company who are happy to lie to customers . Are you comfortable buying from a company that openly lies ?
As of July Apple is going to render ALL devices not running iOS 11 useless, including said iPod Touch.
Userlevel 7
+2
I am no longer a Sonos customer, just a user, until the gear can no longer serve MY purpose or Sonos allows me a choice in the Firmware I want to use.
When you want to buy more kit in future for whatever reason, how will you make sure of not facing similar issues with it? What kit maker will treat you different? Including in this issues like lack of repair services some years down the line.
I don't have a CR 100, but I do have close to useless iPod Touch devices that are in working condition, but not supported by Apple. But when I must have a device that only Apple makes that best meets my needs, I will still buy Apple for lack of better alternatives.
Kumar,
you wrote of the "consumption behavior" of most, and I must admit that I am one of those that is capable of my own repair as I am a component level tech for over 40 years, used to own a consumer electronics repair shop, and am now an IT consultant. so technically I DO ALL my own repairs and continue to use gear that most have tossed away years ago.
for that matter I will also do my own mechanical repair and my own home construction, I realize I am not of the typical "consumption behavior" of today.
with that said, I agree that for those looking for product today, its all built to break and need replacement, software is a typical excuse to forced obsolescence, but compared to gear built 20 years ago, its not built to last.
(how funny is it that the ONE item Sonos built like a tank, and would easily run another 10 years, IS the CR100)
I will make my decisions and come to new methods as needed, I cannot say if I will be able to find an equal replacement but I would NEVER give any company that screwed me once the chance to do it again.
I can see why you still feel like you could purchase from Apple again, Apple did not "brick" your IPod Touch, so in my book, the same issue does not apply.
Sonos has taken a whole new approach to forcing the death of an item (or removing its ability to communicate with the rest of the system, same difference) , and not just allowing it to remain usable with no further improvements like your IPod Touch.
NOT giving their users any sort of choice does not give me any incentive to speak well of them.
I am no longer a Sonos customer, just a user, until the gear can no longer serve MY purpose or Sonos allows me a choice in the Firmware I want to use.
When you want to buy more kit in future for whatever reason, how will you make sure of not facing similar issues with it? What kit maker will treat you different? Including in this issues like lack of repair services some years down the line.
I don't have a CR 100, but I do have close to useless iPod Touch devices that are in working condition, but not supported by Apple. But when I must have a device that only Apple makes that best meets my needs, I will still buy Apple for lack of better alternatives.
Userlevel 7
+2
I agree with the original poster on this topic and that this IS a different topic than "save the CR100"
I am also in nyCecilia's camp where I take offense of any company that decides when I am done using something I paid for and if I had known this was the deal I would have not purchased Sonos gear in the first place.
The discussion of Corporate morality and responsibility to their customer is certainly a valid one here.
many of my comments in the "Save the CR100" thread apply and I am not going to bother repeating myself, but I am certainly open to consider what others think.
Sonos will ultimately do what they feel is best for them, or what wont hurt them the most for sure.
if they ultimately look at the latest action as "bad for business" they could always fix it..
I am no longer a Sonos customer, just a user, until the gear can no longer serve MY purpose or Sonos allows me a choice in the Firmware I want to use.
I am also in nyCecilia's camp where I take offense of any company that decides when I am done using something I paid for and if I had known this was the deal I would have not purchased Sonos gear in the first place.
The discussion of Corporate morality and responsibility to their customer is certainly a valid one here.
many of my comments in the "Save the CR100" thread apply and I am not going to bother repeating myself, but I am certainly open to consider what others think.
Sonos will ultimately do what they feel is best for them, or what wont hurt them the most for sure.
if they ultimately look at the latest action as "bad for business" they could always fix it..
I am no longer a Sonos customer, just a user, until the gear can no longer serve MY purpose or Sonos allows me a choice in the Firmware I want to use.
I see this as a much larger than Sonos issue, about a consumption driven economic growth model; if any values are to be questioned, the ones that drive these are the culprits that need to be in the dock.
In Home audio, the days when people happily used decades old kit with the same remote - where the remote was even part of the kit - are gone, swept away with the "growth based on planned obsolescence" model everywhere.
Hopefully, those holding on to their CR100s are being consistent across their consumption behaviour, as it relates to clothes, cars, homes, computers, appliances and the rest. Unfortunately, this is very hard to do for every such purchase, and Sonos is just a small part of the shift in everyone's behaviour. And core value questions in this context therefore need to be framed much more broadly.
And if everyone were to hypothetically switch overnight away from this model, GDP growth everywhere will not just slow down, but will go negative for a long while, leading to a corresponding drop in average income levels.
The Earth will probably heave a sigh of relief though.
In Home audio, the days when people happily used decades old kit with the same remote - where the remote was even part of the kit - are gone, swept away with the "growth based on planned obsolescence" model everywhere.
Hopefully, those holding on to their CR100s are being consistent across their consumption behaviour, as it relates to clothes, cars, homes, computers, appliances and the rest. Unfortunately, this is very hard to do for every such purchase, and Sonos is just a small part of the shift in everyone's behaviour. And core value questions in this context therefore need to be framed much more broadly.
And if everyone were to hypothetically switch overnight away from this model, GDP growth everywhere will not just slow down, but will go negative for a long while, leading to a corresponding drop in average income levels.
The Earth will probably heave a sigh of relief though.
Userlevel 5
+5
I have always been nervous allowing "auto update" of any device or software in my home. SONOS has just proved to me how dangerous it is.
I was an early SONOS adopter and supporter, and spent a lot of money time and effort to those ends (free end user testing? participation in this/prior forum?). Many people have purchased SONOS on my recommendation or from seeing it in my home/business. To be treated this way...as if they have the right to bully their way into my home and destroy my property...I am done with them. I hope the lot of them lose big from this and will do my best to make sure that happens. This is war.
I was an early SONOS adopter and supporter, and spent a lot of money time and effort to those ends (free end user testing? participation in this/prior forum?). Many people have purchased SONOS on my recommendation or from seeing it in my home/business. To be treated this way...as if they have the right to bully their way into my home and destroy my property...I am done with them. I hope the lot of them lose big from this and will do my best to make sure that happens. This is war.
It does seem that Sonos may be in the process of shifting their core values. Yes the Save the CR100 thread has covered this at (great) length, but the Alexa implementation within the Play One looks like another example of less than "clear" marketing messages.
The question for me is, does this shift (real or perceived) of the Sonos core values matter to enough people to damage the company? and here is a thought, if Sonos is really damaged then all our expensive kit could becomes worthless!
The question for me is, does this shift (real or perceived) of the Sonos core values matter to enough people to damage the company? and here is a thought, if Sonos is really damaged then all our expensive kit could becomes worthless!
Gee, I never knew prolific was an insult. I see no conflict, nor delusions here. I am prolific in my postings, as accumulated over 10 years. Others were prolific over 3 or 4 months in the CR100 thread. Still others were very verbose. Those are facts, no insults intended, only an observation. My only point was that 1000 posts of 1000 characters from 10 posters are very different from 10 posts of 100 characters from 100,000 posters.
But don't let that stop you from turning yet another thread into your personal vendetta against me, Logan.
But don't let that stop you from turning yet another thread into your personal vendetta against me, Logan.
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