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Why does Sonos force us to update the software?

  • 24 September 2022
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F
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Over the past two months the sound has stopped working on our ARC SL home theater. After checking out my LG display and Apple TV 4k each time the solution happened to be Sonos updates. Sometimes its firmware, sometimes its a controller issue. In each case we found that doing the update brought the sound back. We have three iPhones and an iMac with controller software, though we never use them. Every time the sound quits, I now have to walk around the house checking devices to see which one needs the update. 

With out previous Playbar HT as well as the ARC SL HT, I recall being able to go several full versions of controller software before anything would go wrong with our systems and now we can’t skip even a minor point release release. Once the system was set up and working perfectly, there’s no need to update the software at all.  So why the forced update gimmick? 

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Best answer by jgatie 24 September 2022, 03:14

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69 replies

J

@Forstal . Please read the question in the title of your thread and then try to understand why we all think that @jgatie 's reply was entirely relevant.

Your suggestion that your sound drops are caused by one  controller needing an update is ridiculous.  So as @nik9669a  has suggested, submit a diagnostic next time it happens and end the nonsense of this thread. 

Edit. I started typing my reply before your last post. Thank goodness you plan to submit a diagnostic. 

melvimbe

This is just silly.  The thread title and first post are pretty clear that @Forstal believes that Sonos is intentionally disabling his system when his controller software is not up to date.  While those of us who have some understanding of how Sonos works, as well have seen the typical problems people experience, see that this doesn’t make any sense, the only way to definitely demonstrate this to get a diagnostic reviewed by support.

As already suggested, best to just wait for that rather than the given attention to conspiracy theories.

Danny
J

There is only one actual question in your original post. It is "So why the forced update gimmick?".

There is only one sensible answer to any suggestion that Sonos force updates, and that is  "Sonos don't force updates".

J

Now go back to the question I asked, in the context of the paragraphs that preceded it. Given the evidence at hand, ask what conclusion the typical customer might draw from this. I say it would be “The system quits until I upgrade something, is it trying to make me upgrade”, 

 

Ah, if only you had asked if this was an attempt to force you to upgrade.  But you didn’t.  You sought an explanation for why Sonos does force you to upgrade.  “So why the forced upgrade gimmick?”

jgatie

Nothing about pending updates can ever stop your Arc from playing sound.  There’s something else at work here.  I suggest you submit a diagnostic and post the reference number here the next time you experience the problem.  

Corry P
Userlevel 7
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Hi @Forstal 

Due to this topic having had no activity for several days, it was flagged in my workflow as needing a Best Answer.

As you posted in the Ask a Question section, and the only question you asked was “So why the forced update gimmick?”, I marked @jgatie’s response as the Best Answer because it was the best answer to your actual question. Perhaps I was being too literal - apologies.

@jgatie’s latest reply is also accurate - if the TV audio is cutting out, it has absolutely nothing to do with an update being required by a controller, regardless of what you have noticed. Correlation is not causation. I recommend you unplug your TV from power for at least 2 minutes - this usually solves the issue you describe. If it doesn’t, please check that your HDMI cable(s) is/are well-seated.

I hope this helps.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
buzz

Some items don’t reboot after a momentary power interruption. For example, recent SAMSUNG TV’s require that the interruption is at least two minutes.

melvimbe

Edit: What Danny said, more quickly than me :)

 

Faster isn’t always better.  😀

 

Also, since people can make their username an actual word, it’s a way to distinguish between the word and the user.  There is a difference between “submini is great” and “@submini is great”.

Danny
N
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I did the same in my posts, @Forstal   Why not have a go at me? 
 

For the record, the only question you asked in your first post was the final sentence: “So why the forced update gimmick?” The majority of posts since then have tried to explain to you why this attitude you have is fantasy. All you have done is push back harder every time your idea is challenged. 
 

That said, why don’t we all stop posting on this thread until @Forstal (sorry - I did it again) posts his diagnostics report and tells us the results of Sonos’ investigation? 

N
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In summary, then:

@Forstal asks a question;

Several people answer it, citing much the same answer;

@Forstal doesn’t like the answers because they don’t agree with his theory;

@Forstal then says he posted to see if others are experiencing the same issue;

No-one has yet said they are experiencing it, adding to the likelihood that @Forstal‘s theory as to the cause of the problem is an incorrect one;

Lots of posts go back and forth;

There’s general agreement a diagnostics report needs to be submitted after the next occurrence, for Sonos to investigate and report the results.

 

Can’t we just leave it there for now? 

 

ratty

I could have had this resolved 10 days ago if you had just skipped over it and let Bruce take the question, or Ratty. 

I said my piece back here. 

 

There’s general agreement a diagnostics report needs to be submitted after the next occurrence, for Sonos to investigate and report the results.

 

Can’t we just leave it there for now? 

Please.

Corry P
Userlevel 7
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Hi folks

I don’t think this thread is going anywhere constructive, so I’m now closing it to further discourse.

@Forstal - if you haven’t already, I recommend you get in touch with our technical support team if this happens again, before updating the controllers.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
melvimbe

 

My Sonos ARC home theater drops sound at random. We’ve discovered that it means one of our controllers “needs” updating. We have to check every controller in the house (multiple iPhones, two iMacs, an iPad) until we find which one(s) have pending updates. On rare occasions we have device updates pending. We do the update(s), the system starts working again. Sound comes through the home theater. At no point in the ownership of our Playbar home theater did this happen, and I was able to skip years of updates with no problem. This appears as if Sonos is stopping sound from playing in order to force controller and device updates.

 

 

A - HT drops sound at random

B - Controller devices need updates on rare occasions.

I don’t know how you conclude that ‘need for updates’ are causing the drop outs.  The updates are obviously not random but specific events.   And if the controllers rarely need updates, that would mean your HT drop sounds would have to be rare as well.

It does make some sense that doing an update would resolve drop out issues, at least temporarily, The new software may include a bug fix for an issue you’re experiencing.  More likely, updates to firmware will always reboot the device, and get a new IP address from your router. 

But, the idea that some of your controller devices need software updates implies that it’s not a firmware update, just controller update that’s missing.  Your devices would not redo an update every time you bring an app up to date.

Also worth clarifying if the drop outs happen with streaming audio, TV audio, or both.  Either way, the diagnistic and talk to support is the way to go.

 

Danny
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A - HT drops sound at random

B - Controller devices need updates on rare occasions.

I don’t know how you conclude that ‘need for updates’ are causing the drop outs.  The updates are obviously not random but specific events.   And if the controllers rarely need updates, that would mean your HT drop sounds would have to be rare as well.

It does make some sense that doing an update would resolve drop out issues, at least temporarily, The new software may include a bug fix for an issue you’re experiencing.  More likely, updates to firmware will always reboot the device, and get a new IP address from your router. 

But, the idea that some of your controller devices need software updates implies that it’s not a firmware update, just controller update that’s missing.  Your devices would not redo an update every time you bring an app up to date.

Also worth clarifying if the drop outs happen with streaming audio, TV audio, or both.  Either way, the diagnistic and talk to support is the way to go.

 

 

  1. “I don’t know how you conclude that ‘need for updates’ are causing the drop outs.” I conclude this because restarting various components, unplugging things, checking for aTV updates, etc, doesn’t resolve the issue. Only checking every SONOS component and controller in the house - and inevitably finding a pending update - solves the issue. 
  2.  “But, the idea that some of your controller devices need software updates implies that it’s not a firmware update, just controller update that’s missing.  Your devices would not redo an update every time you bring an app up to date.” Please clarify this because I don’t get what you’re saying. 
  3. “Also worth clarifying if the drop outs happen with streaming audio, TV audio, or both.  Either way, the diagnistic and talk to support is the way to go.” The updates happen with any source that applies sound to the Arc, which includes every app on the aTV. 
F
Userlevel 1
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Hi @Forstal 

Due to this topic having had no activity for several days, it was flagged in my workflow as needing a Best Answer.

As you posted in the Ask a Question section, and the only question you asked was “So why the forced update gimmick?”, I marked @jgatie’s response as the Best Answer because it was the best answer to your actual question. Perhaps I was being too literal - apologies.

@jgatie’s latest reply is also accurate - if the TV audio is cutting out, it has absolutely nothing to do with an update being required by a controller, regardless of what you have noticed. Correlation is not causation. I recommend you unplug your TV from power for at least 2 minutes - this usually solves the issue you describe. If it doesn’t, please check that your HDMI cable(s) is/are well-seated.

I hope this helps.

 

JGatie’s initial response was based on his complete misunderstanding of my question. I didn’t ask how to prevent updates. I asked why service interruptions appeared to be a way to force me to update. He was congratulated by someone for this, and then you marked the thread as answered. 

I call him on this and I don’t even get an “oops” out of him. Instead, JGatie’s last two answers boil down to “you’re wrong it can’t happen that way” and “it didn’t happen to my brother so you’re wrong”. Yet remarkably, every time there’s a sound drop out, it is always solved by checking controllers for updates. Applying the updates brings the sound back right away. Occasionally, but rarely, its a device update. Applying that brings the sound back, right away. So to me, it appears that pending updates cause my system to drop sound. 

Finally, the tv isn’t the issue, please note above where I said that I dealt with the display and AppleTV and other devices first. Everything else outside this Arc has been rebooted multiple times while I tried to figure out the Arc dropout the first time. Since then I haven’t had to restart anything including Sonos devices - unless there was a Sonos firmware update - all I needed to do was update one or more controllers.  But just to be certain the next time this happens I’ll restart the tv and report back to you. 

jgatie

In short, they don’t.    Turn off auto udates and reminders for both the hardware and  the app and you won’t even know there is an update.

melvimbe

So, if I understand you right, Sonos actively forces you (or all users) to update your system by using the controller to cause drop outs on the system? How? Why? And why has nobody noticed this before?

 

Thats the summary of it. There’s only really three pieces to this chain: Sonos, Arc, and the controller(s). 

How? I don’t know. But if I had to guess, I would say its a simple flag that is set by an inbound update notification, and that flag shuts off the sound. Updating resets the flag. But I’m not a coder so this is just a guess. 

 

 

Where would this flag reside?  On your speakers on the controller?  If you turn off your phones, or remove them from the WiFi, does the sound resume?  Do you think the Arc maintains a listen of all the controlling apps in your system?

 

Why? Again I’m just guessing, but I’d say its to frustrate the user into turning on automatic updates. I did some reading on Sonos updates when I got into this Arc and I found out they did some really heavy-handed stuff at one point in the past to force updates. I don’t exactly recall what it was but it was either a firmware update that broke the controllers to force people into a newer version of the controller that they didn’t like, or vice versa. I’ve already spent too much time on this topic today or I’d go look into it for you. 

 

 

I can’t guess as to what incident your talking about.  However, your controllers and firmware must be on the same version.  It’s always been that way.  You may be referring to a case when a guess or other family member updated the firmware for a system, when the Sonos owner did not want it updated, forcing them to update the controler app on the owner’s phone.

 

Why has nobody noticed this before?  I’ve spent no small amount of time reading threads here about software issues, and one of the most common pieces of advice is “you should have auto updates turned on”. So perhaps nearly everyone here has auto-updates turned on, and since my problem relates to unperformed updates, those customers don’t run into a forced controller update issue? Once again, I’m just guessing, but that seems like the simplest answer. 

 

There is a thread regarding the Sonos Arc/Sub base issues where numerous people have stated they are not updating their software till a fix is provided.  None of them are complaining about drop out issues.

Danny
ratty

Why has nobody noticed this before? 

Perhaps because (a) inactive controllers are ‘unsubscribed’ (disconnected) from the players, and in any case (b) an out-of-date controller has no effect on the players, other than being unable to control them fully?

melvimbe

 

There is a thread regarding the Sonos Arc/Sub base issues where numerous people have stated they are not updating their software till a fix is provided.  None of them are complaining about drop out issues.

In fairness to you, I went looking for that thread and couldn’t find it. But I did find a guy who posted up about his speakers changing to S2 “overnight”. At least one other person in that thread said they experienced the same thing. Its definitely not the same thing as what I see happening here, but at least it should open people up to the possibility things can change in a Sonos system without customer permission or involvement. 

 

 

This is the thread I was referring to.  It’s long and you’d have to read a bit to find where people say they are not upgrading.  You didn’t have to go looking for it, you can assume I’m not lying to you.  As far as other people finding issues unrelated to the issue you report, of course they exist.   It does prove your theory is accurate.  In fact, I am 99% sure that the “speakers changing to S2 overnight” either was found to be a manual update from someone else or yet unresolved.  Certainly doesn’t show that Sonos is turning off the audio till you update all your Sonos apps for your system and your system alone.

Danny
AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

Hi

I know many individuals such as yourself are not comfortable with updating their electronics. Without going into another discussion as to why I’ll offer this fact.

Not all updates are for feature enhancement. The majority of updates are to correct flaws or bugs that are sometimes introduced by the previous update itself. Before you say “ah ha” know that all bugs found in a firmware are not pervasive to each device the manufacturer has on the market. Although every device maybe offered the update not all devices will utilize it to full extent. 

For example iOS 16.0.2 is offered for my iPhone 12 but there are specific bug fixes included that my iPhone 12 will ignore as they are intended for the iPhone 14. Also not accepting the update can cause devices to not function properly with apps. The app developer will also behind the scenes make adjustments to their app to work properly with the latest firmware. If the app cannot find the latest version on the device upon which it is installed it too may malfunction. 

Bottom-line…sometimes refusing to accept updates may cause device issues later on. Just food for thought and not offered as a solution to your issues. 

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
buzz

Please, we don’t need all of this yelling and screaming.

SONOS does not issue any middle of the night forced updates. There are situations where a strongly worded suggestion to update will be issued. For example: if a new phone/pad/computer arrives and a fresh copy of the controller is installed, the newly installed controller will be the current version. This new version will strongly suggest that players with older versions be updated. Following this, an older controller running on another phone/pad/computer will discover the mismatch and suggest a controller update as it encounters the newer firmware. If a controller is re-installed, the same issue will present.

With respect to your missing ARC SL audio, we don’t have enough information and can only guess a cause. Implied in a system update is a reboot of each player. The reboot might temporarily work around an issue. In my opinion a high probably cause is a problem in the HDMI connections. HDMI has a checkered history of issues. There are too many cases where a user contacts each manufacturer involved and receives a “never happened before -- not our problem” response. “Never happened before” issues are both solved and introduced by an update of one unit (SONOS, TV, Cable, DVD, etc.) in the system.

Rather than waiting for a potential update after this issue occurs, I suggest that you immediately submit a diagnostic, then contact SONOS support.

Sometimes momentarily breaking the HDMI connection will work around this sort of issue.

F
Userlevel 1
Badge +3

Please, we don’t need all of this yelling and screaming.

SONOS does not issue any middle of the night forced updates. There are situations where a strongly worded suggestion to update will be issued. For example: if a new phone/pad/computer arrives and a fresh copy of the controller is installed, the newly installed controller will be the current version. This new version will strongly suggest that players with older versions be updated. Following this, an older controller running on another phone/pad/computer will discover the mismatch and suggest a controller update as it encounters the newer firmware. If a controller is re-installed, the same issue will present.

With respect to your missing ARC SL audio, we don’t have enough information and can only guess a cause. Implied in a system update is a reboot of each player. The reboot might temporarily work around an issue. In my opinion a high probably cause is a problem in the HDMI connections. HDMI has a checkered history of issues. There are too many cases where a user contacts each manufacturer involved and receives a “never happened before -- not our problem” response. “Never happened before” issues are both solved and introduced by an update of one unit (SONOS, TV, Cable, DVD, etc.) in the system.

Rather than waiting for a potential update after this issue occurs, I suggest that you immediately submit a diagnostic, then contact SONOS support.

Sometimes momentarily breaking the HDMI connection will work around this sort of issue.

 

Thanks for the measured reply. Hopefully “the other guy” gets it. 

Regarding the reboot… implied doesn’t necessarily mean it happened though, does it? Wouldn’t restarting the controller devices as well as pulling the plugs on each device and reinserting them do the same thing?

 

I should mention that when the problem happened the first time, here’s the list of things I did to fix it:

check audio settings on the aTV

check for aTV updates

power cycle the aTV

check audio on the LG display, including changing the settings and then going back to the usual ones

reseat the HDMI connection

power cycle Sonos

check for update on main controller

check for update on other controllers

apply Sonos update(s)

problem resolved

In all but a couple of cases out of at least a dozen, it was a controller issue. The other times it was a device update. 

And with the cable replaced, the issue persisted, though it hasn’t done it once since I started the thread.  If there is anything I’ve missed in there, please let me know - aside from the diagnostic. 

 

The next time the issue happens I’ll run a diagnostic. In the overnight mystery update thread I mentioned yesterday, I read that Sonos engineers told the affected customer that he should wait until he hits a trouble spot before doing so. This makes sense because otherwise all I might be sending you is information that nothing is amiss. 

F
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@Forstal . Please read the question in the title of your thread and then try to understand why we all think that @jgatie 's reply was entirely relevant.

Your suggestion that your sound drops are caused by one  controller needing an update is ridiculous.  So as @nik9669a  has suggested, submit a diagnostic next time it happens and end the nonsense of this thread. 

Edit. I started typing my reply before your last post. Thank goodness you plan to submit a diagnostic. 

 

Well when you put it that way, I suppose you could be right. But then I think JGatie’s response to my first post was so completely off the track it made no sense, unless you consider perhaps what he did was to read the thread title, ignore the post content itself, and then answer the title as if all I was asking about were updates that were applied without my permission rather than what my content was about, which was suspension of services that was only rectified by doing a controller update. 

And I’m not suggesting that its one controller update causing this as you suggest. It has happened with almost all of them at different times, and in some cases its two or more in a single event, but in any of the instances it was only after I updated the controller(s) software that the system started working again.  On a couple of rare occasions it was device updates. 

Yes, Sonos will get a diagnostic, just be patient. Its been 10 days since the last dropout, and who knows when it’ll happen again. 

 

F
Userlevel 1
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This is just silly.  The thread title and first post are pretty clear that @Forstal believes that Sonos is intentionally disabling his system when his controller software is not up to date.  While those of us who have some understanding of how Sonos works, as well have seen the typical problems people experience, see that this doesn’t make any sense, the only way to definitely demonstrate this to get a diagnostic reviewed by support.

As already suggested, best to just wait for that rather than the given attention to conspiracy theories.

 

Curious - why do you put an ‘at’ sign in front of my name? 

Ignore the title for a moment. I considered it was the best way to summarize my results, as explained by the post. Apparently I should have done a more neutral title because folks here allow themselves to get irritated by a single line of text, so much that they allow it to overshadow any explanation or exposition. If I could edit it, I would have it say “Is Sonos forcing us to update their software?” Would that be better? 

Now, just read my first paragraph in the original post. I explained what was happening and how it looked to me. At some point I would hope everyone here would lay down the pissing contest and think of how this appeared to me, the customer. When every single bit of troubleshooting possible on my part failed to produce sound, and the only thing that fixed the problem was doing a controller update, how would that look to you? What would you have done? In my case - and knowing what happened with the v8 controller/firmware debacle a few years ago - the simplest explanation was that Sonos had a hand in this either wittingly or not. 

And back to the diagnostic, yes that’ll be done. If you go read my S2 install problem you’ll see how much confidence I have in that, but I’ll still do it. I look forward to perhaps getting something other than a checklist of things I’ve already done followed by “well we can’t see the problem it looks like everything is working, you need to give us remote access”. But hey I’ll keep an open mind. 

 

melvimbe

This is just silly.  The thread title and first post are pretty clear that @Forstal believes that Sonos is intentionally disabling his system when his controller software is not up to date.  While those of us who have some understanding of how Sonos works, as well have seen the typical problems people experience, see that this doesn’t make any sense, the only way to definitely demonstrate this to get a diagnostic reviewed by support.

As already suggested, best to just wait for that rather than the given attention to conspiracy theories.

 

Curious - why do you put an ‘at’ sign in front of my name? 

 

 

It’s the generally accepted way to reference users in pretty much any social media context.  On this forum, it will also notifiy you that you’ve been referenced in a post, if you have settings turned on to be notified.

 

Ignore the title for a moment. I considered it was the best way to summarize my results, as explained by the post. Apparently I should have done a more neutral title because folks here allow themselves to get irritated by a single line of text, so much that they allow it to overshadow any explanation or exposition. If I could edit it, I would have it say “Is Sonos forcing us to update their software?” Would that be better? 

 

 

No, because it’s the same incorrect acquisition said in slightly different way.  And as I stated, but you conveniently ignored, it’s not about your thread title alone, but your entire first post.  Seemed pretty clear the impression people got from this thread is exactly what you intended….you just didn’t get the response you wanted.  Or maybe you did.

 

Now, just read my first paragraph in the original post. I explained what was happening and how it looked to me. At some point I would hope everyone here would lay down the pissing contest and think of how this appeared to me, the customer. When every single bit of troubleshooting possible on my part failed to produce sound, and the only thing that fixed the problem was doing a controller update, how would that look to you? What would you have done? In my case - and knowing what happened with the v8 controller/firmware debacle a few years ago - the simplest explanation was that Sonos had a hand in this either wittingly or not. 

 

 

I would have stated the issue I’m having and look for suggestions on how to troubleshoot and address the issue, maybe talked to support, rather than presenting  a poorly thought out conspiracy theory.

 

 

Danny
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