Where would this flag reside?  On your speakers on the controller?  If you turn off your phones, or remove them from the WiFi, does the sound resume?  Do you think the Arc maintains a listen of all the controlling apps in your system?

I can’t guess as to what incident your talking about.  However, your controllers and firmware must be on the same version.  It’s always been that way.  You may be referring to a case when a guess or other family member updated the firmware for a system, when the Sonos owner did not want it updated, forcing them to update the controler app on the owner’s phone.

There is a thread regarding the Sonos Arc/Sub base issues where numerous people have stated they are not updating their software till a fix is provided.  None of them are complaining about drop out issues.

Perhaps because (a) inactive controllers are ‘unsubscribed’ (disconnected) from the players, and in any case (b) an out-of-date controller has no effect on the players, other than being unable to control them fully?

“Where would this flag reside?  On your speakers on the controller?”  Since the Arc is the one shutting off, and its the root of the whole system, I would say the flag is set on the Arc. Thats just a guess. I’m not a coder, and I certainly don’t know the ins/outs of the Sonos system. 

“If you turn off your phones, or remove them from the WiFi, does the sound resume?”   Thats a good question. I’ll have to try that next time the drop occurs. I anticipate that there’d be no change, assuming this is a flag issue and it resides on the Arc. That flag would have to be reset in order for the sound to proceed, and turning off the very thing that can reset the flag doesn’t seem like it would cause a reset. Again, I’m not a coder, this is just a guess.  

“Do you think the Arc maintains a listen of all the controlling apps in your system?”  Perhaps. Each controller keeps a list of what speakers are on the Sonos network, so its not that hard to believe that a copy of that list includes controlling apps as well, and that copy resides on the Arc. But thats assuming the controllers are actually the ones causing the service drop. If its indeed a flag, as I suspect, then it doesn’t matter what controllers are on what list, anywhere at all. All that matters is what state the flag shows. 

“I can’t guess as to what incident your talking about.  However, your controllers and firmware must be on the same version.  It’s always been that way.  You may be referring to a case when a guess or other family member updated the firmware for a system, when the Sonos owner did not want it updated, forcing them to update the controler app on the owner’s phone.”      No thats not it. Let me see if I remember this correctly. This was around the time of the iOS controller version 7 and 8. There was a huge mess over some functionality that was deleted or modified. I didn’t do the update myself, just because the system was working and there was no need for any update. Then one day I recall opening my iPhone controller to use the dialog enhancement and I received a message that my Sonos needed a firmware update. I was able to clear that but it came up every time I used the app. Then a few days later the app stopped working. I switched over to using my iMac, and it worked for a while. Eventually that controller stopped working. I gave up on controllers and just used the Playbar until one day nothing came out and I was forced to update. 

“There is a thread regarding the Sonos Arc/Sub base issues where numerous people have stated they are not updating their software till a fix is provided.  None of them are complaining about drop out issues.”

Yet.

These aren’t inactive. We leave these devices around the house, and they're convenient to use depending on our activities. I don’t personally use Arc for music because I don’t think it sounds that great for most music, but my wife uses it for listening to a classical station, and that does sound good.  When it works. 

Or did you mean that these are considered “inactive” simply because the software is out of date? We’ve actively used some controllers that were months out of date. I think most of them went back to the S2 release, actually. I don’t think I did a single update on anything - controller or device - until this drop problem started at the beginning of the summer. 

In fairness to you, I went looking for that thread and couldn’t find it. But I did find a guy who posted up about his speakers changing to S2 “overnight”. At least one other person in that thread said they experienced the same thing. Its definitely not the same thing as what I see happening here, but at least it should open people up to the possibility things can change in a Sonos system without customer permission or involvement. 

I don’t know if you missed this, @Forstal, but I’ll ask again: please, just submit the diagnostic, speak to Sonos support, and then you’ll have the proof that you’re right. (Or wrong, of course.)

Once again, my brother has had an Arc for over a year and has never done an update to either the hardware or the Sonos app.  Matter of fact, he doesn’t even use the Sonos app.  It works just fine, he never has dropouts.  So your problem has nothing to do with unperformed updates, time to look somewhere else.

This is the thread I was referring to.  It’s long and you’d have to read a bit to find where people say they are not upgrading.  You didn’t have to go looking for it, you can assume I’m not lying to you.  As far as other people finding issues unrelated to the issue you report, of course they exist.   It does prove your theory is accurate.  In fact, I am 99% sure that the “speakers changing to S2 overnight” either was found to be a manual update from someone else or yet unresolved.  Certainly doesn’t show that Sonos is turning off the audio till you update all your Sonos apps for your system and your system alone.

I didn’t miss it. Based on what I’ve read in other threads, I have to wait until the next time this occurs to do a diagnostic report, otherwise Sonos will not have the information they need to investigate. Picture bringing your car in multiple times for the same trouble, and the service writer always responds with “Could not reproduce the problem.” So I’ll be sure to let you know when I do that. 

Once again, your position is “it didn’t happen to my brother so you’re wrong”. 

And please refer to https://support.sonos.com/s/article/4842?language=en_US where you’ll see your brother had to use the Sonos app to set up his Arc. 

And, once again, if performing updates brings the sound back, it definitely has something to do with the updates. Or as I stated above, with something set in the system that forces me to update things in order to continue using the system. 

I already assumed you weren’t lying to me, but thanks for posting the link. 

Then you have to answer, why is it not happening to my brother?  After all, you seem to have figured out how Sonos is accomplishing this nefarious deed.  Does my brother not have this theoretical "flag" you speak of?  If no, we are back to you being specifically targeted by Sonos, which is absurd.  Meanwhile, the more time you spend on this paranoid nonsense, the less time you have to fix the actual problem, not to mention the less impetus we have for helping you to fix it.

BTW, I set it up for him. He didn't want it for anything but TV, so he never loaded the app.  Nice try, though.

No, I haven’t figured it out. I’m not a coder, can you not read? I’m simply making a guess as to how it could be happening. Software flags are known in the industry even to someone with experience as oblique to coding as mine. 

I never said Sonos is specifically targeting me, I said its happening to me. Unfortunately its not happening to your brother, who has an Arc you somehow set up for him without using an app. If you could let me in on that secret perhaps I could reinstall my system, get rid of the apps, and the problem would be solved.

In any case, there are tech forums absolutely full of people who have identical hardware and software yet not everyone has the same support issues. Go review the support threads for the last ten MacOS or iOS releases, for example. Apple has the tightest hardware and software integration in the history of computing, yet the hundreds of thousands of each model that they sell through each quarter somehow end up playing differently for each customer. Not everyone on the forums has the identical problem. Go look. “I just installed MacOS Salton Sea and now my video out on my MacMini doesn’t work.” and thirty five people will stand up and post “it works for me”. 

Sonos, with even tighter hardware and software integration than Apple - because Sonos isn’t fighting the detritus of 35 years of legacy code across several different processor architectures= has the same kind of problems. Scanning the past two years of posts on any player will show you many people who have unique problems. Like mine. Apparently I’m the first person to present this issue. Will I be the only one? Will anyone ever bother talking about it if you hammer them in their thread like you did to me?

I’m still waiting for you to show actual impetus towards fixing this. Everyone else made suggestions which I was able to respond to. You made an actual mistake, dragged down the entire discussion, you refuse to acknowledge this, and now you’re doubling down on projecting this back at me instead of recognizing your error. With insults on top of it. 

Please leave this thread. Don’t reply any further, just leave. 

1. I set it up using the app on my phone.  But keep trying, eventually one of your "gotchas" will stick.
2. If Sonos is purposefully forcing people to update by setting a flag that stops the Arc from playing, it's a pretty ineffective method if only one owner is actually being "forced" (which is why it's a silly accusation).
3. Updates cause a reboot, and an IP address renewal, which can temporarily clear up any networking glitches you may be having.  I guarantee this is what you are experiencing, and I could give you a relatively easy fix.  But since you know so much more than I do, I won't bother.
4. I am a coder, 30 years as a software engineer.  Some of the biggest laughs I get are preceded by the words "I'm not a coder, but . . .".  
5. You do not control this thread.  I'll post wherever I damn well please, thank you.

So you just admitted it took a phone to set up his Arc. Excellent, thanks for confirming that. There's your gotcha, son. Make your exit now, please. 

We haven’t discovered if anyone else has been affected by this. Since many people have been directed to set their systems to automatically update, I doubt we’ll really see any meaningful sample there. In any case, its happening here, and its directly remedied by updating the Sonos controller(s). 

Updates to the controllers cause a reboot? On what system? None of my iOS devices and none of my computers have ever rebooted as a result of one of the controller updates. Nice try on your part, buh bye.

I’ve been dealing with self-important people for most of my life, especially within your business. Some of my biggest laughs start with hearing someone say “I am a coder”. In any case your attitude isn’t helping, and you certainly haven’t provided any concrete help. 

I don’t control this thread, but neither do you. Bye. 

Never said I set it up without using an app  I said my brother doesn’t even use the app, which is 100% truth.  Sorry, but that's no gotcha.   And I'm not your son.

Now, do you wish to fix your problem or not?

lol finally we’re getting somewhere...

ok you set it up, using your app, on your phone, so technically this system is yours isn’t it? It just “lives” at your brother’s house. Based on your time here, you of all people would have up-to-the-minute controller software, right? Maybe that explains why your brother’s Arc doesn’t have any trouble. Hm, gotcha, since that kind of thing is important to you. 

Yes I want to fix this problem, and thats why I posted here. Two pages in you suddenly want to help? Thank you for that kindness, but please just leave the thread. Seriously. 

Are you always this wrong?  

1. I set it up using his email, so it is his.  I then reset my controller and added it back to my system, which is registered to my email, so it's mine.  I now have zero connection to his system and his Arc has not been updated since the install over a year ago.  But keep on trying, lol.
2. If what you claim is true, that Sonos is forcing updates by cutting the sound from a non-updated Arc, my brother's Arc would have ceased working  many months ago.  That's a clue for you.  As is the fact that not one other poster seems to experience the same as you, which is what you claimed to be seeking in this thread.
3. What is it about "I'll post where ever I damn well please" did you not understand?

Hmm, ok. Let me see if I’ve got this. I’ve been complaining about my system dropping sound, and the only thing that fixes it is doing controller updates. Occasionally a firmware update, but usually a controller update. I ask if Sonos is forcing people to update by doing this. 

You show up, you proclaim that I don’t have to update if I don’t want to, and that I can shut off automatic updates - which has nothing to do with my question - and then claim victory. 

I tell you that has nothing to do with my question. You reply that it then must be something I’m doing because its impossible for Sonos to do what I’m saying. 

I tell you that its very possible, that other companies do it, and Sonos has done something akin to this in the past though not by the same modality. I also remind you that you were wrong in your initial post, which you still haven’t acknowledged. 

You sidestep all this and bring up your brother and how his system has never been updated and he doesn’t use the app. Fine, but how did his system get put together? Ah, you did it, using the app, which you then just admitted you’ve dissociated from his system, so the controller couldn’t be causing an issue. I have half a dozen controllers here, and software updates for those have more often than not been the problem. 

Finally, you stick to saying that I’m talking about a non-updated Arc causing this, when the problem is generally solved by updating the controller app. 

So, in summary:

You misunderstand the question, you post the wrong solution. You still misunderstand the problem and continually bring up firmware updates when this is apparently a controller issue. You then use an example that can’t possibly prove my situation isn’t valid because your own description of your example proves you’re wrong. I repeatedly remind you that you were wrong in your very first post and you still can’t admit that. You’ve been shooting in the dark during this whole thread. And you ask me if I’m always this wrong? Maybe on your Bizarro world. On this world you’re at around half a dozen errors and counting, and thats just in today’s posts. 

And to your last question: I understand every bit of your mini bravado statement about posting. However, I don’t think you understand what you’re doing. You should go now. 

Please, we don’t need all of this yelling and screaming.

SONOS does not issue any middle of the night forced updates. There are situations where a strongly worded suggestion to update will be issued. For example: if a new phone/pad/computer arrives and a fresh copy of the controller is installed, the newly installed controller will be the current version. This new version will strongly suggest that players with older versions be updated. Following this, an older controller running on another phone/pad/computer will discover the mismatch and suggest a controller update as it encounters the newer firmware. If a controller is re-installed, the same issue will present.

With respect to your missing ARC SL audio, we don’t have enough information and can only guess a cause. Implied in a system update is a reboot of each player. The reboot might temporarily work around an issue. In my opinion a high probably cause is a problem in the HDMI connections. HDMI has a checkered history of issues. There are too many cases where a user contacts each manufacturer involved and receives a “never happened before -- not our problem” response. “Never happened before” issues are both solved and introduced by an update of one unit (SONOS, TV, Cable, DVD, etc.) in the system.

Rather than waiting for a potential update after this issue occurs, I suggest that you immediately submit a diagnostic, then contact SONOS support.

Sometimes momentarily breaking the HDMI connection will work around this sort of issue.

Thanks for the measured reply. Hopefully “the other guy” gets it. 

Regarding the reboot… implied doesn’t necessarily mean it happened though, does it? Wouldn’t restarting the controller devices as well as pulling the plugs on each device and reinserting them do the same thing?

I should mention that when the problem happened the first time, here’s the list of things I did to fix it:

check audio settings on the aTV

check for aTV updates

power cycle the aTV

check audio on the LG display, including changing the settings and then going back to the usual ones

reseat the HDMI connection

power cycle Sonos

check for update on main controller

check for update on other controllers

apply Sonos update(s)

problem resolved

In all but a couple of cases out of at least a dozen, it was a controller issue. The other times it was a device update. 

And with the cable replaced, the issue persisted, though it hasn’t done it once since I started the thread.  If there is anything I’ve missed in there, please let me know - aside from the diagnostic. 

The next time the issue happens I’ll run a diagnostic. In the overnight mystery update thread I mentioned yesterday, I read that Sonos engineers told the affected customer that he should wait until he hits a trouble spot before doing so. This makes sense because otherwise all I might be sending you is information that nothing is amiss. 

@Forstal . Please read the question in the title of your thread and then try to understand why we all think that @jgatie 's reply was entirely relevant.

Your suggestion that your sound drops are caused by one  controller needing an update is ridiculous.  So as @nik9669a  has suggested, submit a diagnostic next time it happens and end the nonsense of this thread. 

Edit. I started typing my reply before your last post. Thank goodness you plan to submit a diagnostic. 

This is just silly.  The thread title and first post are pretty clear that @Forstal believes that Sonos is intentionally disabling his system when his controller software is not up to date.  While those of us who have some understanding of how Sonos works, as well have seen the typical problems people experience, see that this doesn’t make any sense, the only way to definitely demonstrate this to get a diagnostic reviewed by support.

As already suggested, best to just wait for that rather than the given attention to conspiracy theories.

Some items don’t reboot after a momentary power interruption. For example, recent SAMSUNG TV’s require that the interruption is at least two minutes.

Well when you put it that way, I suppose you could be right. But then I think JGatie’s response to my first post was so completely off the track it made no sense, unless you consider perhaps what he did was to read the thread title, ignore the post content itself, and then answer the title as if all I was asking about were updates that were applied without my permission rather than what my content was about, which was suspension of services that was only rectified by doing a controller update. 

And I’m not suggesting that its one controller update causing this as you suggest. It has happened with almost all of them at different times, and in some cases its two or more in a single event, but in any of the instances it was only after I updated the controller(s) software that the system started working again.  On a couple of rare occasions it was device updates. 

Yes, Sonos will get a diagnostic, just be patient. Its been 10 days since the last dropout, and who knows when it’ll happen again.