+1
Lpcm sound is considerably quieter than Dolby Digital plus 5.1 or other modes, annoying
Is that normal or not?
Or maybe work in progress?
Is lpcm the best option for my setup , gaming on ps5?
Thanks everyone for helping in advance
Peace
Dawid
Best answer by Rowena B.
View original
+2
I got both xbsx and ps5 , tried that same games , streaming services etc,xbox is much much much louder when passing thru to sonos arc and also dolby atmos as well, the best i can get is dd plus 5.1 on ps5 which sound just fine -LPCM is a no no at the moment -they have to work on this sonos or sony , or both
peace
DT
It’s good to see from
Anyway, I’ll patiently wait and hopefully not for too many months more!
I can confirm that even if you change the PS5 settings to AV receiver and force it to 5.1 multichannel the low volume of LPCM is still there. The sounds are coming out of the right speakers. Just low volume. Change the PS5 setting to Dolby and there is a noticeable difference in volume.
Not sure what the solution is here.
Same here.
+18
Hi
Your Arc will basically be playing what it is told to play - if LPCM sounds different to other formats (soft and muddy), it’s because your Apple TV (or TV) is delivering it that way. Different hardware is decoding whatever came before LPCM (it’s unlikely that the source media contained a LPCM track), and that must be the reason for things sounding differently.
If volume is the only difference, however, I can only suggest altering the volume with the controls.
I hope this helps.
This is an issue with The Arc I believe. Because the apple tv also treats the arc as a multichannel 7.1 and sends audio that way. Which results in low dialog and weird surround performance and even lipsync issues for me…
On the PS5, you can change your source to a AV reiceiver and force it to 5.1 multichannel which I believe fixes this.
But the Arc should tell the sources that it can only handle 5.1 not 7.1 not sure why we would ever get 7.1 onto the arc if it cant handle it and it doesnt seem to be downmixing it.
Is there any update on the LPCM issue?
Did Sonos ever acknowledge the muffledvolume for multi-channel PCM following the December 2020 update?
Doesn’t seem like it. For now i am using the Dolby stream option. But agreed it needs to be fixed as this is embarrassing for a system that costs a fortune.
Is there any update on the LPCM issue?
DTS sounds louder than LPCM
When watching DTS-encoded Blu-ray discs, which sounds better to your ears? DTS Digital Surround or multichannel PCM?
+18
Hi
I’ve done a bunch of research over the last week or so and it seems like many people are having issues with LPCM sounding very low on the Arc (compared to DD+) and the issue keeps being ignored as normal.
The same people that had issues eventually got another soundbar and the LPCM didn’t sound low - this has to be something related to how the Arc handles it LPCM.
Then they should get in touch with our technical support team, because unless we receive word of exactly that, our team members are going to assume - when they receive reports that a high-dynamic-range format that we don’t decode sounds quiet compared to Dolby Digital - that things are completely normal, for the reasons I have already stated.
With that being said, I do all my watching on an Apple TV 4K. I notice with eARC set to Auto it shows Atmos and with eARC set to Off it shows Atmos (DD+).
I’m not sure which, but either your Apple TV or your TV is converting to Dolby Digital+ (Atmos) when eARC is disabled.
1. Is it true that all the Atmos content through the Apple TV 4K only plays in Atmos (DD+)? If true, I may just leave eARC off since I get Atmos (DD+) and for all non Atmos content I get DD+ (which sounds better than LPCM).
2. Is it possible to get Atmos from the Apple TV 4K? Or only when streaming from a 4KUHD player?
In short, if you are streaming movies from the internet, it doesn’t matter which version Atmos you see reported in the Sonos app - the result is the same.
If you are watching 4KUHD with MAT Atmos (which is possible with Apple TV if you rip your Blu-Rays to .MKV or similar on hard-drive and watch with Plex), there is a difference, but you’d be hard-pressed to identify it without switching back and forth for a comparison, and even then you might need superior ear genes.
I hope this helps.
Hi
What are you basing your statement that LPCM will be quieter than Dolby Digital off of? If anything, LPCM is more likely to have greater depth/fullness/loudness, as it is a lossless format (Dolby Digital is lossy).
As I stated:
Differing content can often be mastered to different volume levels, and when a change in encoding is involved, this is even more likely as the sound track will be adjusted to best fit the parameters and abilities of the codec. Technically, however, LPCM isn’t a codec (it’s uncompressed) and is in fact how all digital equipment handles sound internally - at some point, regardless of any formats/codecs/channels being used, everything is converted to LPCM before being passed to the digital amplifiers inside all Sonos speakers/Amps. Included in the decoding process of Dolby Digital and Atmos to LPCM is a volume boost/range compression. As LPCM isn’t processed (decompressed) like a codec, there isn’t the same opportunity for this to happen. When LPCM is played, you get the closest to the original track possible - the data on the source is relayed directly to the amplifier after mixing.
You are correct - LPCM from the source will have greater depth (dynamic range), which is exactly why it sounds quieter - there’s less compression. This has nothing to do with algorithmic data compression, but auditory dynamic range compression instead. With less compression there is a greater range in volume level between something quiet and something loud. A cinema would not dream of compressing this range, but watching movies at home is a different matter. When there is no compression, you’ll need to turn up the volume to hear quiet vocals, and then explosions are really loud - something a cinema desires, rather than tries to avoid.
I did say “in general”. There’s no technicality that says LPCM is quieter compared to other formats - I’m just saying that it’s something you’re likely to perceive, as opposed to the opposite.
I am sorry for the delay in my response, but this doesn’t quite add up.
Perhaps for a lossy compression (Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital+) this would hold, but not for something that is losslessly compressed (Dolby TrueHD). Whether a Dolby TrueHD track is decoded at the Sonos level, at the receiver level (in a non-Sonos environment), or at a media player level, the auditory fidelity of the resulting LPCM should be 100% equivalent. The reason for a data-compressed codec like TrueHD is simply for saving disc space, but since it is lossless, the auditory dynamic range is not compressed. If Sonos is taking the liberty to add more volume boost/range compression in a Dolby TrueHD track, they are doing something beyond the intent of the codec and deocder that Dolby provides (and perhaps even the creator’s intent). Of note, this isn’t in reference to Atmos metadata. I understand that is lost in standard Dolby TrueHD → LPCM decoding. Simply talking about ear-level channels here.
tldr; Decoded Dolby TrueHD should sound 100% equivalent from a fidelity perspective, regardless of what device has done the decoding to LPCM. And right now, it does not. And it’s not close.
Hello,
since the update to v16.0 i am facing an issue with lpcm. It is so quiet, that even if i crankup the volume to max i can't hear a thing. Before the Update i never had any issues wuth my Sonos Playbar. When switching to dolby on my ps5 i am facing issues with the loudness on hulu and sky q. I hope you can help me with my issue?
Best Regards
Finn
I uploaded a new Sample at the same link
Moderator edit - link removed to avoid copyright issues
I hope you'll take the time to listen to it or forward it to your enginering team.
To clarify, my setup is Arc, Era 300 as surrounds and Sub (gen 2).
Hi
If apps on your PS5 are a lot quieter than your TV apps, perhaps you should be asking Sony for a fix?
The Arc is not going to think “he’s playing it from a PS5, I think I’ll be quieter than usual”. It plays the feed it’s given. As it plays the feed from the TV apps without issue, it’s working correctly.
If the PS5 is not responsible for the lowered volume, then your TV is.
I truly do understand the frustration you’re probably feeling, but in this case there is nothing that we can do. I recommend you stick to the TV’s apps, if the PS5 doesn’t have a setting that will fix the issue.
Maybe the issues do lie elsewhere but the sound comes from a Sonos speaker which is in the chain.
When we contact these large companies, its always 1st line support who treat you like an idiot and think its just an issue with your TV and go through all the bog standard stuff like resets and so on.
If a company like Sonos contacted Sony, they might take the issue more seriously.
i do understand that some issues do not lie with the Sonos but surely as a large company you could make an effort to work together to highlight an issue.
+18
Hi
I passed the link to a colleague and asked him to read these last few posts on this thread for context.
He played the file with Kodi on a nVidia Shield to his Arc, but was unable to discern any difference between the Dolby Digital and LPCM tracks besides the volume.
He did notice, however, that the two tracks were not identical. The LPCM track appears to have had a filter of some kind applied to it:
As we were unsure as to why he couldn’t hear a difference, he extracted just these centre channel tracks to FLAC and sent them to me - I couldn’t hear a difference either.
So, although we were both unable to discern any audible differences, there does appear to be a difference in how the two tracks were mastered. We have to assume therefore, that either there is no significant difference, or there is, but only when using the equipment that you are using and it’s due to the difference in mastering - with Passthrough/Bitstream, this should not be happening, however, though it’s not unknown for “Passthrough” to be an inaccurate description of what’s happening when it comes to some TVs.
He also tested with both Night Mode and Speech Enhancement disabled and enabled, but still no difference was perceivable.
So, long story short, we cannot confirm your findings. At this point, as far as we are concerned, everything appears to be working as intended and we don't consider this to be an issue.
All we can suggest is that if things sound worse when listening to LPCM, don’t use LPCM - I don’t mean to be flippant, but I’m not sure what else to say at this point.
I have removed your links to the file to avoid copyright issues.
I hope this helps.
You don't want to set to 7.1 as Sonos Arc with sub is a 5.1.2 set up
Even with 2 rears?
I have the arc and 2 rears (no sub) so technically a 7.0.2 setup. When I set the ps5 to lpcm 7.1, I still hear missing channels at the rear when panning the camera in a game and sound transitions from rear left to rear right. There is a gap of silence in between.
Hi
I passed the link to a colleague and asked him to read these last few posts on this thread for context.
He played the file with Kodi on a nVidia Shield to his Arc, but was unable to discern any difference between the Dolby Digital and LPCM tracks besides the volume.
He did notice, however, that the two tracks were not identical. The LPCM track appears to have had a filter of some kind applied to it:
As we were unsure as to why he couldn’t hear a difference, he extracted just these centre channel tracks to FLAC and sent them to me - I couldn’t hear a difference either.
So, although we were both unable to discern any audible differences, there does appear to be a difference in how the two tracks were mastered. We have to assume therefore, that either there is no significant difference, or there is, but only when using the equipment that you are using and it’s due to the difference in mastering - with Passthrough/Bitstream, this should not be happening, however, though it’s not unknown for “Passthrough” to be an inaccurate description of what’s happening when it comes to some TVs.
He also tested with both Night Mode and Speech Enhancement disabled and enabled, but still no difference was perceivable.
So, long story short, we cannot confirm your findings. At this point, as far as we are concerned, everything appears to be working as intended and we don't consider this to be an issue.
All we can suggest is that if things sound worse when listening to LPCM, don’t use LPCM - I don’t mean to be flippant, but I’m not sure what else to say at this point.
I have removed your links to the file to avoid copyright issues.
I hope this helps.
Hi Corry,
Thank you for putting in the effort you did. I would not use LPCM if I didn't have to. It is just that normally the Apple TV 4K is my “go-to” device for playing my own RIPS. It's kind of ironic that this is because it converts everything to LPCM so I don’t have to worry about playing DTS-HD MA which Sonos does not support. I guess I can only hope that Sonos will someday support all major (lossless / spatial) formats and Apple allowing Passthrough (again). But not seeing either happening anytime soon. Never the less, thanks again for investigating. I'll try to live with it ;)
+18
Hi
You are very welcome!
Like my colleague, I have a nVidia Shield Pro, and when I play a file with DTS-HD, Plex will automatically extract (not transcode) the DTS core from that and pass it along to my TV/Amp. This would also work with an Arc, and while DTS isn’t DTS-HD, it’s a lot better than Dolby Digital. The Shield has several output format options (but will only transcode to Dolby Digital) - it might be worth a look. Mind you, Plex may behave the same way on Apple TV - I don’t know. I do know another program similar to Plex called Emby does not extract the DTS core, so perhaps it depends on the software you are using rather than the Apple TV itself?
After reading your earlier post, I had assumed you were using the Zidoo - have you tried it?
Hi
The topic of this thread was never going to be “fixed” because nothing is broken. LCPM is expected to be quieter than some other formats.
When DD+ is decompressed, we use that opportunity to boost the volume of the output. LPCM cannot be decompressed because it isn’t a compressed format - it’s passed straight to the amplifier without being altered. In a sense, it remains “faithful” to the original audio track.
Besides, even when using the same format, each movie is levelled differently because it’s a different engineer doing the audio mix. Then another engineer - one who hasn’t necessarily ever spoken to the director of the movie - comes along and remixes the compressed audio formats from the master track for the home market.
I usually find myself adjusting the volume for nearly ever piece of content I watch - especially when it comes to movies, but also each YouTube video or TV program.
I hope this helps.
Hi Cory,
This topic has been a hot one for a long time now, and although I was never really aware of the massive volume/dynamic difference between for example Dolby TrueHD and LPCM until i recently purchased a Zidoo mediaplayer to get the full Atmos experience for my new Era 300's coming from an Apple TV 4K. I also feel this difference is being ignored or regarded as normal while so many others feel it is anything but. So I'd like to zoom in on some of your comments.
In conclusion I think I am looking for a definitive answers as to WHY Sonos keeps saying it's totally normal while most users feel it's not. Is it as simple as just increasing volume to get the EXACT same quality, volume gain and dynamic as letting the Sonos handle things?
The Arc and two surrounds is still a 5.0.2 setup.
A 7.1 soundtrack is backwards compatible with a 5.1 system. The four surround channels are just mixed into the two rear surround channels.
Bump. Same **** here. Lpcm is borked
*Moderation note: removed offensive language*
Hi
Do you think I can change something within the PS5 (or else) to get actual surround with LPCM settings or do I have to stick with Dolby? I have no issues with Dolby sound, except for a very subtle delay with the sound, noticeable for example during cutscenes with dialogues.
I advise you stick with Dolby 5.1 output on the PS5 until we support downmixing of LPCM 7.1 tracks on the Arc, and I imagine lip-sync during a game cutscene has more to do with the game engine than delays induced by your hardware (if you don’t notice it elsewhere - playing a movie on the PS5 would be the best test). I’ve certainly noticed it on PC games in the past.
Thanks!
I am sticking with Dolby 5.1, and it is fine; regarding the delay, I can hear it also when scrolling in the interface of PlayStation, so it is not an issue of the game engine, it is a “global” situation that happens during the whole experience. Nevertheless, I am already used to it, but I really look forward for a fix!!
+18
Hi
tldr; Decoded Dolby TrueHD should sound 100% equivalent from a fidelity perspective, regardless of what device has done the decoding to LPCM. And right now, it does not. And it’s not close.
There is no reason for LPCM to sound equivalent to Dolby TrueHD - it doesn’t contain vertical channels, nor does it have Atmos 3D positioning data. What happens to those channels and that data depends entirely on which device decodes the stream to LPCM.
Hi
tldr; Decoded Dolby TrueHD should sound 100% equivalent from a fidelity perspective, regardless of what device has done the decoding to LPCM. And right now, it does not. And it’s not close.
There is no reason for LPCM to sound equivalent to Dolby TrueHD - it doesn’t contain vertical channels, nor does it have Atmos 3D positioning data. What happens to those channels and that data depends entirely on which device decodes the stream to LPCM.
I acknowledged this in my previous reply:
Of note, this isn’t in reference to Atmos metadata. I understand that is lost in standard Dolby TrueHD → LPCM decoding. Simply talking about ear-level channels here.
I am not considering the vertical/height channels, or the Dolby Atmos 3D object positioning. Simply the conversion of the (up-to) 7.1 ear-level channels. Dolby TrueHD existed as a codec long before Dolby Atmos was born, with the later being an extension on top of the former. Take for example the movie It's A Wonderful Life. It has a Dolby TrueHD 2.0 track.
There is countless literature online detailing how when decoded, Dolby TrueHD (and DTS-HD MA for that matter) should sound equivalent from an audio and fidelity perspective to LPCM. They exist simply for saving data (not dynamic range) space on media.
I cannot stress this enough: There should be no fidelity difference between decoding at the Sonos/receiver level and decoding at the Apple TV 4K (as an example, could be another Dolby-certified decoder) level for anything without atmospheric audio.
I have the PS5, ARC, and 900H as well. After reading the thread I still can’t tell the best setting to use at the current moment (until more updates hit). Beside lcpm needing higher volumes is it still the best sound? For 4K blu rays with dtsx tracks does anyone have the current optimal setting? I only get 5.1 DD+ if I turn OFF my eArc and just use ARC pass through which I find odd.
Hi
I’m sorry - I don’t understand. Fidelity has nothing to do with volume, and we were discussing volume.
As mentioned above, I have already flagged this volume issue for internal investigation. If the comparative volume of LPCM vs Atmos is the problem you’re experiencing, I’ve already done all I can to help.
Sorry for the confusion, and I do appreciate the help. It is just frustrating that we are coming up on 9 months (released November of 2020) of folks consistently reporting that LPCM volume is an issue, and the best we have is something recently flagged for review.
+18
Hi
Will users get a notification from Sonos when lpcm 7.1 become available?
I’m afraid not - but we’re sure to mention it here on the Community.
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