Dolby Atmos (Spatial Audio) Music: My Opinion

AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

Hi

First of all let me preface this novella 🙂 by saying I do not consider myself an Audiophile; which by one definition are:

  • “…an exceptional breed of people who are fascinated by pure audio, motivated by sound quality and addicted to audio gadgets. Audiophiles take their passion for music one step further. They're curious about how songs are recorded and the science behind how sounds are reproduced”.

With that said let’s begin….

Some of you may have read my posts wherein I talk about “stereo separation”. IMO 99% of what one hears musically is not “stereo separation” in its purist form. What one does hear is music and vocals emanating from two speakers spaced at least 6 feet apart where there is a “sweet spot” in the center. 

The listener has a sense that all instruments and vocals are “dead “center providing the optimum listening experience. The people to blame for this misconception of what is “stereo separation” IMO are the mixing engineers. They rationalize the mixing strategy by saying it provides a “wide” sound stage. 

“True” stereo separation; IMO, is wherein the listener can pinpoint the position/location of instruments either to the left, center or right (or slight variations there abouts). 

Granted back in the day there were studio musicians (known and unknown) that all came together in a room and laid down the tracks. Today vocal tracks may be recorded in Chicago, horns in San Francisco, drums in New York and the list goes on by location. Those recordings (i.e. tracks) are sent to a mixing engineer that places them all together to create a single recording. The finished product is played through two identical speakers with the resulting sound called “stereo”.

So where Am I going with this….

Early on…I was not (operative word being “not”) a fan of Spatial Audio for music. Mainly because of how it was explained and supposedly worked with music. The most prevalent explanation I read was that music appeared to be coming from all directions. 

The above said…If I’m at a live concert I‘m not hearing different instruments coming from above or behind. To the contrary, I hear all vocals and instruments coming from the front stage. I can even localize the positions.

Spatial Audio like stereo can offer bad and good presentations (mixing). I have a set of Era 300’s set as a stereo pair. IMO, in order to appreciate Dolby Atmos (spatial audio) for music you need a reference point for comparison. I dare say most in this community aren’t old enough to remember “true” stereo separation. To offer assistance I suggest you stream the following in so called “stereo” and then again in “Dolby Atmos” (i.e. spatial audio) available via Apple Music.

  • Ready For Freddie by Freddie Hubbard: Circa 1962

In the stereo stream you’ll hear the music. In the Dolby Atmos (spatial audio) stream you’ll REALLY hear the music. The separation (i.e. positioning) of the instruments is incredible. Granted you’ll get a much better perspective (i.e. listening experience); if you have two Era 300’s in stereo pair. However, a single Era 300 will still blow your mind and your “A” will follow. 😅

Needless to say I’m now a convert to Dolby Atmos (spatial audio) music when it’s properly mixed. I wish there was a “Standard “by which music is mastered and/or remastered to meet specific Dolby Atmos (spatial audio) specifications. Believe me there’s a lot of “crap” being presented and masquerading as Dolby Atmos (spatial audio) music.

I hope this information was informative and provided a more comprehensive understanding/appreciation for properly mixed music. The future of Dolby Atmos (spatial audio) music I hope is a growing medium and not just a flash-in-the-pan like SACD and Mini-Disc. For those of you that can remember; hopefully, Sony doesn’t have a hand (somewhere) in this medium. Oh…did I mention BetaMax? But that was video.😂

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

45 replies

AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

@sjw @melvimbe 

I see your points. I have now corrected the post I believe is the one that caused the confusion. It would have been a lot simpler if the front drivers on the Era 300’s activated in all configurations regardless of content sent to them.

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
J
Userlevel 3
Badge +1

First of all, many thanks to the originator of the post Aj Trek 1.  Your initial post was/is fascinating and informative.  I’m 64 and disabled and my hearing somewhat impaired.  I’ve spent far too much money since a teenager on whatever has been latest tech in the ensuing years.  I love music and have eclectic tastes but particularly fond of Prog Rock. Long story short, I keep an open mind and am always fascinated to see new products and techniques.

Im new to Sonos and just a few weeks back decided I’d party company with some excellent KEF LS50W2 active speakers and move to something different.  So I have an Arc soundbar which is my first ever experience with a soundbar.  Sub Mini and two Era 300s.  My lounge is small really and just under 4x4 metres square.  Limited options re speakers placement too. 
Anyway, I bought this set up to pursue Atmos.  Very impressed by the Arc and this now is used as standalone for tv.  300s and Sub are linked together now having been part of a surround set up before.  Music is more important to me that movie surround and after experimenting I prefer the 300s as a pair for stereo and Atmos with the Sub too.  I have no experience of the 5s but can appreciate they’d doubtless have the edge with stereo.

It’s early days yet and I may change configuration again and speaker placements?  Happy though with my purchase.  Re Atmos, so far my favourite music experience is the Kraftwerk 3D album to showcase this. My sources are Apple and Amazon and I think I prefer Amazon but will likely keep both.

Very much enjoying this forum.

melvimbe

@sjw @melvimbe 

. It would have been a lot simpler if the front drivers on the Era 300’s activated in all configurations regardless of content sent to them.

This is a tough point, even if a silent or subdued front speaker is more appropriate for spatial sound delivery. New users want to make sure that the got their money’s worth and a muted front speaker is flagged. New to surround users of any product voice a similar complaint on day one if they are not smacked in the back of their heads by the surround speakers. The user is not satisfied until the surround level is jacked up, way out of proportion. The original Top Gun is a good choice for their first play.

 

Agreed.  I see it as a catch-22 situation as well.  You could argue that Sonos should have made a spatial audio speaker just for rear surround duty.  No front driver, no bluetooth, no line in, etc...since these things are not used for surround duty.  The expectation is that this would reduce the price.  But that would also mean that it can’t be used as separate pair, so no one would buy it for that reason.  Likewise, many would not buy even if the intend to use for rear surrounds simply for the loss of flexibility.  Essentially, Sonos choice to make a speaker with a wide number of uses and features, even though few would use them all, so that it has a wider market and thus can be a single design and mass produced for cheaper.  If history is a judge, it also could mean the 300 can be viable in the market for longer before needing a replacement.

Danny
Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

There are some great Stereo recordings that if you, your room and speaker placement are really good give an image that matches how the original sound source being recorded was placed. Recording engineers could also take individual instrument/voice tracks and mix them so they appeared in specific locations. Or, sadly do odd stuff that did not sound good. Been too long since I had the setup, or interest in getting that quality of sound but when you got it right it was amazing.

Some of the original Quadraphonic music was the same but doubled so you got not only right/left placement but depth. The higher fidelity methods could put an individual sound in any speaker with the others remaining nearly silent or balance the sound to place the virtual location around the sweet spot in the room. The Guess Who, American Woman comes to mind as the band members were shouting letters from different speakers. Some of the Moody Blues work had mobile sounds that would seem to fly around the room, worked well for their style of music.

Poorer methods didn’t have as much channel separation and could only force a small difference in the front/real sound. Still was pretty decent listening, just not as impressive.

Then later, you have the various DSP created sound images, the internal computer and DSP reprocess what you are playing into what is intended to be a virtual room so you can be listening in a small studio to a concert hall. As always some were far better than others and offered far more choices but most were pretty decent and let you get some use out of your other speakers when playing stereo.

Dolby looks to be trying to give the recording engineers a much more complex playing field than any of the earlier designs, also trying to keep it closer to a single standard so consumers don’t (like they did on Quad) give up on it in frustration.

The room and listener placement seems to be as critical or more so than earlier designs but from what little I have heard even a “bad” setup still sounds as good as 5.1 or Stereo so there is no downside aside from cost.

The engineers can choose to place things in the rear or height channels, as did Quad, or they can go more the DSP Sound Field route, using the additional speakers to provide what would be reflected or other ambient sound. The second I find far more impressive after the first few minutes of “WOW!” listening to things bouncing around the room.

All told I think it is a winning design only in danger from incompetent recording engineers mucking up what should be good music.

Airgetlam

I lived through the Quadrophonic years, and more recently the 3D television years. Time, and the marketplace will tell. I’m not against Atmos per se, but most of what I listen to isn’t encoded in it, either. 

Bruce
S
Userlevel 1
Badge

Good post but I feel like I have been experiencing true stereo separation for a while now as I do hear generally vocals in the front and various instruments left and right, with panning of any or all from left to right and back again now and then. Even with two small homepod minis I got this effect, and especially with decent Bose headphones.

With two Era 300 as a stereo pair I am fairly happy but perhaps need to still try different positions because I am not amazed with Spatial Audio at all so far. I do notice the difference though so perhaps I was just expecting too much. I haven’t for example found a track where I feel anything is coming from above or behind me. 🤔

S
Userlevel 1
Badge

I don’t think that is true. I have two Era 300s set up as a stereo pair and if I play non-Atmos content I still hear music coming out the front of both speakers.

AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

I agree with that, but the edited, ‘clarifying’ post still says “The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content.”, hence my confusion.

You need to re-read my corrected post 🙂

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
melvimbe

I agree with that, but the edited, ‘clarifying’ post still says “The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content.”, hence my confusion.

You need to re-read my corrected post 🙂

 

@AjTrek1 One of your posts still says “The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content. “    The “because” part of you statement is inaccurate.  When used as a pair, the Era 300 front facing driver is always active regardless of content.  When used as rear surrrounds, the the front facing driver is never active, even with dolby atmos content.

The reason you said elsewhere, that a pair of Fives is better than a pair of Era 300s for stereo, is correct. The Fives have better/more/larger drivers and can handle lower frequencies better than the Era 300. However, the Era 300s are plenty good enough for a lot of spaces and preferences, with the bonus of spatial audio and audio input, especially when bonded to a sub. 

Danny
S
Userlevel 7
Badge +15

Correction: The front drivers on the Era 300 do activate when used as a stereo pair. They are silent when used in a Home Theater’s application.

Old age is messing with my mind. I have corrected this in my original post as well. Sorry for the confusion.

@sjw

Is the above post the one you read? I don’t know to correct my error any better than what is written. That said where are you still confused? I’d like to further clear up any confusion for you if I may.

No, it’s the original one I questioned - that both I and @melvimbe have re-quoted that still says “ The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content.”  In the one above you say you corrected it in the original post yet I still see the original post saying the same thing I’ve just quoted.

We’re just going around in circles with you saying you’ve corrected the original post yet I still see it saying the wrong thing.  I don’t know what more I can do other than quote it as it’s still there - which original post are you referring to that you have corrected?

buzz

In the early days of modern stereo (the first stereo records were made in the 1930’s) there was “ping pong” stereo that had exaggerated L/R transitions. A few recordings bragged that there was a heavy drape between the left and right orchestras. I’m sure that we’ll hear our share of spatial gymnastics.

Zeek78
Userlevel 3
Badge +3

I think the biggest problem for atmos music is that you need special equipment to listen to it. Most people have “only” stereo or even mono speakers. See on facebook when discussing atmos music, it is only the era 300 people think can play it like it was meant to be. Of course there are alot of misinformation on how this works, and therfor people think you need even more equipment than you actually need to listen to atmos music. I am afraid that this equipment needed is also what will causes the death of atmos music.

AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

@SteJames 

As I mentioned in my post there are a lot of “crap” recordings masquerading as Dolby Atmos (spatial audio). In order to hear sounds above and behind for MUSIC you need a good Dolby Atmos recording and a room that is spec’d to give the the proper reflections. Typically 23 L x 16 W x 8 H to start.

The reviews you read don’t mention those factors. In truth 99% of folks (IMO) don’t have rooms to those measurements. Movies on the other hand are more forgiving and provide a decent Dolby Atmos sound with all the effects when you have the Sonos Arc, sub and now the Era 300’s as surrounds.

Headphones designed for Dolby Atmos will always give you the front, rear and overheads effects. In fact I could that on a set of DD 5.1 headphones I owned back in the day. Hmmm, I wonder where they are in my rabbit hole dwelling 😂

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo in home theater mode because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content. This is only true when in Home Theater mode as surrounds. Used as a stereo pair the front drivers do activate but still have less dynamics IMO than Fives.

There is a switch in settings to make the Era 300 not activate the front driver when sending it Dolby Atmos material. However, preventing the Era from sensing Dolby Atmos content will not improve its performance with stereo music. The switch is mainly to prevent poorly recorded Dolby Atmos material (Music) from being processed_which can sound terrible.

The be clear the Era 300’s don’t perform poorly with stereo content. Just not as good as the Five’s. As they are cheaper than a set of Five’s most people wouldn’t notice the difference if they didn’t have a set of Fives for comparison.

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

In any enclosed venue you have reflected sound coming from every surface with varying volumes and delays unique to each setting.

My favorite for listening to this type of thing is Cathedral organ music. Engineers have recorded similar music both close miked, where you mainly hear the organ’s pipes and with more distant or multiple mikes where the reflected sound is a much larger component. Both sound good but properly done the distant mikes give you a sound much closer to what you would have heard live in person.

Second would be classic piano, the close miked stuff is fantastic and the music takes center stage but with more distant mikes you get a lot more coloration of the sound from the venue. Listening to a close miked piece and multiple more distant miked ones at various venues sounds very different.

Some fans of the “recreate the venue’s sound” spend a lot of effort on perfect speaker and listener placement along with a lot of reflection suppressing room treatments. Some of the listening rooms I have been in sound very dull and everything seems quiet, not just music. You really need loud speakers to fill the room compared to a more normal or a Live” room.

You could probably play with this a bit by taking a pair of Fives to your deadest room and then out to an empty garage with bare walls. The amount of reflected sound will make both rooms sound very different.

Interesting reading and you can find far less expensive ways to improve your room but with a bit more effort. Here we went with carpet and drapes as the primary, along with a couple bookshelves to diffuse the sound from one wall with an absorption panel between them. Adjoining rooms with large doorways got carpet to deaden the sound coming back from them. Not a lot in interests of keeping the spouse happy but it sounds better than where I started.

 

https://www.ekustik.eu/tips-and-tricks-blog/how-to-treat-home-listening-room

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/getting-the-right-acoustics-for-your-listening-room

https://www.acousticfields.com/room-treatment-acoustics-explained/

AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

Correction: The front drivers on the Era 300 do activate when used as a stereo pair. They are silent when used in a Home Theater’s application with stereo only content but will activate when receiving Dolby Atmos.

Old age is messing with my mind. I have corrected this in my original post as well. Sorry for the confusion.

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
melvimbe

I'm still confused tbh

You said “The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content.”. Although you have changed something, if this isn't true (it still says this BTW), and they are active, what is the reasoning for them not performing as well?  Had you thought it was because the centre driver wasn't active but more likely it's just a lower cost speaker that just doesn't sound as good as its bigger brother?

 

When you setup a pair of Era 300s as it’s own room, not bonded to an Arc or Beam to cover rear speaker duty, the front/center driver are always active, regardless of the source material.

Mono?  Front driver active.

Stereo? Front driver active.

Atmos? Front driver active.

 

When the Era 300s are setup as rear speakers, my understanding (I don’t have this setup) is that the front/center driver is never active. There are a lot more situations to consider here as you could be listening to music/streaming source vs TV, you could have the ‘full stereo’ option turned on or off, and the source could be mono, stereo, 5.1 surround, or atmos.  But I believe the front driver is off in all situations currently. 

Danny
AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

To clarify why the Era 300’s don’t sound as good as the Five’s…here’s my answer: 

The Five’s have bigger drivers in all aspects. I had both setup in the same room as a stereo pair and did the A/B comparison. TO MY EARS…the Five’s do a better job with a good stereo recording. FYI, if you read some of the independent reviews they will voice the same. Again listening is prejudice to the end user so your opinion may differ.

However, if you don’t have a set of Five’s to compare to a set of Era 300’s who’s to know the difference real or not?

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
S
Userlevel 7
Badge +15

I agree with that, but the edited, ‘clarifying’ post still says “The Era 300’s do not perform as well with stereo because the front facing driver only activates when it senses Dolby Atmos content.”, hence my confusion.

You need to re-read my corrected post 🙂

I did, it still makes no sense and contradicts subsequent sentences.

AjTrek1
Userlevel 7

Correction: The front drivers on the Era 300 do activate when used as a stereo pair. They are silent when used in a Home Theater’s application.

Old age is messing with my mind. I have corrected this in my original post as well. Sorry for the confusion.

@sjw 

Is the above post the one you read? I don’t know to correct my error any better than what is written. That said where are you still confused? I’d like to further clear up any confusion for you if I may.

Together Everyone Achieves More = T.E.A.M.
melvimbe

Correction: The front drivers on the Era 300 do activate when used as a stereo pair. They are silent when used in a Home Theater’s application.

Old age is messing with my mind. I have corrected this in my original post as well. Sorry for the confusion.

@sjw

Is the above post the one you read? I don’t know to correct my error any better than what is written. That said where are you still confused? I’d like to further clear up any confusion for you if I may.

 

What you quoted above says that you corrected your original post.  What are you calling your original post?  Post 11 (I think) in this thread starts off with an inaccurate statement and directly contradicts what you stated above. 

I don’t care whether you go back and edit Post 11 or not, but if you’re wondering where the confusion is coming from, I believe that’s where it is.

 

 

Danny
buzz

@sjw @melvimbe 

. It would have been a lot simpler if the front drivers on the Era 300’s activated in all configurations regardless of content sent to them.

This is a tough point, even if a silent or subdued front speaker is more appropriate for spatial sound delivery. New users want to make sure that they got their money’s worth and a muted front speaker is flagged. New to surround users of any product voice a similar complaint on day one if they are not smacked in the back of their heads by the surround speakers. The user is not satisfied until the surround level is jacked up, way out of proportion. The original Top Gun is a good choice for their first play.

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

Here is the sound field options from a Denon, page 145 in the book.

https://www.denon.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-denon_northamerica_shared/default/dw51c079d5/downloads/avr-a1h-owners-manual-en.pdf

 

Yamaha has a wider selection as well as an AI driven mode that sounds very interesting.

Effects: https://manual.yamaha.com/av/20/rxa8a/en-US/313777547.html

AI Mode: https://manual.yamaha.com/av/20/rxa8a/en-US/5459441035.html

K

If the 300 is a speaker that uses all its internals when played as a front music player singly or in stereo mode, then things are as expected, and any difference between it and other speakers playing stereo audio, including the 5, is down to design/price points. And given the spatial audio capability, it will do better than the 5 with spatial audio music. 

And any suppression of any driver in any mode can be a part of Trueplay tuning; results that can be toggled off if found unsuitable. If worthwhile, I am sure Sonos can modify Era to behave this way in surround mode.

By the way; am I not correct in thinking that in some modes of even stereo music play, some driver/s on the 5 are muted? No one seems to mind that?

K

Here is the sound field options from a Denon, page 145 in the book.

 

This stuff has been around for decades now, as part of even cheap graphic equalisers. I don’t know how many people find any use for it in practice even with perhaps better tech supporting it now, such that they toggle between the options frequently to keep customising the sound. Most times, an option is selected after some playing around when the kit is new, one gets used to what it does and how it sounds, and then the availability of the other options is forgotten. Which is probably a good thing for music enjoyment!

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings