What does the future hold

  • 3 December 2019
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37 replies

melvimbe

I have read this, left a few days, and re-read it.

Oddly I’d have been happier with obsolescence of players than I would with controllers. If I could just shunt in a new piece of hardware and have the right control I’d be happy. I think the last time I physically interacted with a piece of hardware was in 2013 when we moved house. Half of them I can’t even see.

 

 

That makes sense to me.  Sounds like cost is less important to you as is the convenience of having a controller than you’re comfortable with and know how to use well, rather than having to consider a different means of control for whatever reason.

 

 

Instead we are left with apps that some seem to like, but more seem to dislike, voice which some seem to like and some dislike, and a mish mash of controllers via varying bits of hardware (phones, laptops, desktops, that seems like managing quicksand.

 

 

I can’t agree on the like/dislike of controllers.  The forum is naturally going to see more complaints that compliments just because people don’t often make the effort to say they like something.  The phone/tablet/PC/mac market is all over the place though and changing all the time, which creates havoc for customers.  I don’t think this is a Sonos only issue though,  but an app developer/smart home issue.

 

You can buy hardware to configure as a dedicated controller but you are at the whim of both apple/sonos as to when that controller will be deprecated. So buying versions that aren’t the latest is a risk, and buying the latest versions is expensive, and a waste of a tablet on a simple control.

 

Yes.    I personally don’t see a ton of a value in a dedicated controller.  However, I’m the primary user, so my phone is always on me and ready to use, and we use voice controller rather liberally.   I can see where other household with different lifestyles would find greater use for a dedicated controller, and would have the issue you describe.

 

I’d certainly agree the competition don’t deliver a step-change in functionality so ripping out multiple zones looks challenging.

And Sonos have a battle on their hands maintaining functionality due to changes in sources (streaming from iPhone, BBC on TuneIn, etc). This will suck resource. 

 

 

I think Sonos has done the best they can in this regarding, by making APIs public and free of charge.  For the most part any content not available on Sonos is due to decisions and issues on the streaming services side, not Sonos.  Doesn’t mean customers won’t blame Sonos and won’t have to spend time doing something about it.

 

The smaller systems 1-2 zones is probably where the volume is and the real benefit of Sonos is at its weakest. They are competing against £80 bluetooth speakers that sound good and connect directly to phones.

 

The number of speakers per home sounds about right if I remember Sonos quarterly statements correctly.  However, many of these are soundbars or Amp/Port, which wouldn’t be comparable in any way with bluetooth.  They are also competing with echos and google assistance for those who want voice control smart speakers.  There  are those that are deciding between bluetooth options and Sonos, but I wouldn’t say this is exactly the demographic Sonos is targeting.  You are right though that Sonos is a stronger, better system the more products you own.  No doubt about that.

So what do I think the future holds:

  • More services with sudden functionality loss as outside of Sonos control

I don’t think there will be more.  As Sonos sells more speakers, services will have greater need to maintain service to Sonos.

  • A more confusing landscape with different functionality between App, Computer Control, and control via third party service (Alexa, Spotify etc)

Yes, that’s true.  Although I think Sonos is making strides in this area.  I think part of the trade up program is to get  customers up on current speakers with all the current features.  And the thought is that the Snips voice assistant could simplify/complete control by voice.

  • Less differentiation between an £80 speaker and a £multi-thousand whole house audio system

Again, not seeing this. Less difference between a single speaker and a BT speaker perhaps, but not a whole house audio system.

Looking further down the line (10+years) and I see the home integration scrap eating Sonos’s lunch. Without a slick interface I am not sure they can fight the tide of Amazon, Echo, Apple. It will just be easier to have a wider integration.

 

 

I don’t know what scrap means in this context.  And Amazon/echo don’t really have an interface, unless you mean voice, where Sonos effectively has the same in terms of controlling music.  I don’t know Apple’s but do know it’s limited to Apple services.

 

We have Ring for doorbell, UniFi for WiFi, CCTV from Dahua, Dots from Amazon, music from Sonos, many of those provide cross functionality e.g. both Ring & UniFi could do CCTV. 

With Amazon owning Ring, and the higher quality Echo. I could see if purchasing from scratch today I may well be Ring for bell/CCTV and Echos for Music, or a similar play with Google hardware as it can cover WiFi. It will become easier to accept a much lower quality sound system because it builds on the integration eco-system.

 

 

Agreed on this.  An Amazon whole house system makes sense if you want ease of use, don’t care as much about sound quality, cheap, don’t care about integrating TV audio, other streaming services, or higher multiroom functions.  That actual fits quite a large group of people, evidenced by the massive sales.

It’s a much tougher path ahead for Sonos than the one they have travelled. So far they have ‘only’ had to defeat all comers in the whole house audio market. But the fight is becoming much bigger, this brings much bigger players.

Yes, it most certainly could be.  Sonos does have some patent advantages and such to keep them ahead in certain aspects and has remained relatively service agnostic.   I think Snips takes that even further if Sonos get their own voice assistant.  Perhaps surprising, the much bigger players have not tried to push much into higher market speakers with their systems.   Not sure if they just aren’t interested, want to maintain some semblance of partnerships with Sonos and other speaker makers or just don’t see a market for it.

 

I’m not sure Apple can play as its too Apple-centric. I see much more likely a scrap between Google/Amazon for domination of the home tech market.

 

 

Apple seems to be throwing in the towel on the smart speaker side of things and backing Amazon in a fight against Google.  At least for now.

One thing is sure, there is a lot of new products to come.

 

Yes, most definitely.

Danny
F
Userlevel 7
Badge +8

I have read this, left a few days, and re-read it.

Oddly I’d have been happier with obsolescence of players than I would with controllers. If I could just shunt in a new piece of hardware and have the right control I’d be happy. I think the last time I physically interacted with a piece of hardware was in 2013 when we moved house. Half of them I can’t even see.

Instead we are left with apps that some seem to like, but more seem to dislike, voice which some seem to like and some dislike, and a mish mash of controllers via varying bits of hardware (phones, laptops, desktops, that seems like managing quicksand.

You can buy hardware to configure as a dedicated controller but you are at the whim of both apple/sonos as to when that controller will be deprecated. So buying versions that aren’t the latest is a risk, and buying the latest versions is expensive, and a waste of a tablet on a simple control.

I’d certainly agree the competition don’t deliver a step-change in functionality so ripping out multiple zones looks challenging.

And Sonos have a battle on their hands maintaining functionality due to changes in sources (streaming from iPhone, BBC on TuneIn, etc). This will suck resource. 

The smaller systems 1-2 zones is probably where the volume is and the real benefit of Sonos is at its weakest. They are competing against £80 bluetooth speakers that sound good and connect directly to phones.

So what do I think the future holds:

  • More services with sudden functionality loss as outside of Sonos control
  • A more confusing landscape with different functionality between App, Computer Control, and control via third party service (Alexa, Spotify etc)
  • Less differentiation between an £80 speaker and a £multi-thousand whole house audio system

Looking further down the line (10+years) and I see the home integration scrap eating Sonos’s lunch. Without a slick interface I am not sure they can fight the tide of Amazon, Echo, Apple. It will just be easier to have a wider integration.

We have Ring for doorbell, UniFi for WiFi, CCTV from Dahua, Dots from Amazon, music from Sonos, many of those provide cross functionality e.g. both Ring & UniFi could do CCTV. 

With Amazon owning Ring, and the higher quality Echo. I could see if purchasing from scratch today I may well be Ring for bell/CCTV and Echos for Music, or a similar play with Google hardware as it can cover WiFi. It will become easier to accept a much lower quality sound system because it builds on the integration eco-system.

It’s a much tougher path ahead for Sonos than the one they have travelled. So far they have ‘only’ had to defeat all comers in the whole house audio market. But the fight is becoming much bigger, this brings much bigger players.

I’m not sure Apple can play as its too Apple-centric. I see much more likely a scrap between Google/Amazon for domination of the home tech market.

One thing is sure, there is a lot of new products to come.

 

Owner since 2006: Legacy System(8.4):3*CR100:1*ZP80:4*ZP100:1*Play 5. - S1 System:1*ZP100:1*Z120. - S2 System:5*Amp:1*Port:2*Five:1*Arc,1*Move:1*Play Bar:1*Subwoofer:5*Play1 : Long live the CR100!
melvimbe

To clarify, the trade up program isn’t 30% value on the item your trading in, but on the item you end up buying.  So if you bought a playbar, you’d get 700*.30 = 210.  A Sonos One would be 200*.30 = 60.  I believe you can also use this on speaker sets.  So depending on what you are buying, what you could sell for, as well as ebay’s fees and shipping costs, the best choice financially is going to vary.  Personally, I don’t want the hassle of having to sell on ebay, so I’d even pick trade in even if it’s remotely close.

 

I think the other thing to consider is...if not Sonos, what else? Talking about getting selling off your Sonos as a solution doesn’t make sense unless your willing to just not have multiroom audio anymore, there needs to be something you move over to.  I don’t think there’s a perfect system  out there from what I’ve seen.  Denon, Bose, Bluesound, etc...all have their weaknesses and concerns about how long they will support their smart products.  I would think Amazon and Google are going to do better, but we still don’t know how long they will support their products and the sound quality is generally not as good.   Perhaps a more stable system would be have a more ‘dumb’ amp/speaker  system with Alexa or GA just for control, since dots and mini’s can be had for cheap.  Of course, that has it’s limitations as well.  Again, not a prefect system.

 

 

 

 

 

Danny
N
Userlevel 2
Badge +1

Thank you, your last paragraph has set my mind at rest, at least for now:relieved:

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

Note that controllers present a rather different problem from players. A controller has to work with the full current range of players and new features.

That’s not to say that I’m uncritical of Sonos’s inability to provide separate, ‘legacy’ versions of their controllers for use on older controller devices and OS versions, even if some features are unavailable. However, to some extent there are low-cost third party options that fill this gap, such as Sonopad.

I interpreted the trade-up programme as being about sales generation rather than preparing for obsolescence. If there is any player obsolescence in future, I’m certain it would be accompanied by a similar (or better) trade-up programme, so I have no intention of obsoleting any of my devices.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
N
Userlevel 2
Badge +1

Fair comment, but after the CR100’s were rendered obsolete it took a while to work around it. In fact no solution was ever found to substitute them. Eventually I came to terms with having to use an iPad and also purchased (on Sonos’s recommendation) an Amazon Fire 7. I was told that the Sonos App could be pinned open so as to always be available. This turned out to be incorrect and in fairness to Sonos, they did reimburse me for the unit. As I said in my opening post the iPad has now been rendered obsolete as it is unable to support the latest Sonos updates and Sonos have also told me that my Desktop has probably less than a year left to support updates. 

All I am left with now is my wife’s iPad air 2 which would seem to be good for while but its day will certainly come. 

I do admire the positivity of members here but because of the CR100 issue, I am not convinced Sonos are at all circumspect and remain sceptical about the reasons behind trade ups!

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

Personally, I think Sonos will be much more circumspect about obsoleting player hardware than is assumed in some of these threads. By ‘obsoleting’ I mean rendering them inoperable rather than simply not adding features. Without wanting to downplay the disappointment felt by their owners, the devices obsoleted so far (CR100, Dock) have been niche, non-player products with easy workarounds.

Once the first player products are obsoleted, it will be a major red flag for purchasers of new equipment. They’ll know that instead of purchasing a product they can expect decades of use from (as I expect from my audio products), they’re instead buying something ephemeral.

Note that there is no hard technical reason why Sonos needs to obsolete any older players. It’s quite feasible for older players to continue to operate using versioned protocols, as is the case in many distributed systems. The older players won’t suddenly stop being able to stream music or to participate in Sonos protocols: it would be Sonos’s choice to stop them. 

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
N
Userlevel 2
Badge +1

Some interesting points of view that have made me think a bit more.

My main point however was that as it is almost certain that older equipment will progressively become obsolete is it better to sell it now while it has some value. Prices on eBay are still good for things like ZP120’s but appear to be softening slightly whereas the 30% trade in deal is hopeless. Why would one accept £150 trade in on a £500 amp when £250 is easily achievable on eBay. To make a trade in worthwhile it would need to be at least 60%.

The fact that trade ins are being offered is the surest sign that Sonos knows much more obselescence is around the corner; the bit I am not sure about is how soon to jump before being left with a load of useless equipment. 

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

Until the trade-up deal my Sonos were in trickle-down mode and when I got a new bigger one the smaller one went to a location I was too cheap to fill with a new one. (1 → 3 → 5)

While the new stuff is good I don’t see enough difference (for my use) in a Play 1 or One, or the Gen 1 and 2 5s to be worth replacing the old one.

melvimbe

I’m actually thinking now of selling-on my older Play:1’s and replacing them with the newer speakers, as I think the newer ‘Ones’ sound better and they have a few more features that I’m now finding useful.

 

That popped in my mind too when I saw that the Ones and One SL were on sale.  All my  Play:1s are doing surround sound duty, so there isn’t much to gain expect aesthetic appeal.

Danny
Ken_Griffiths

Yes, I’m optimistic too. All the Sonos original Players are still working for me. It’s appears to only be the old controllers and older accessories that are not quite standing the test of time. 

Over a comparable period, I seem to have set aside more phones, tablets and video products, than Sonos products. 

This is just technology marching forward and I guess we just have to try to keep up with it, if we wish to continue with the road ahead. I find that so much better anyway, than just standing still and trying to use some of the older 'out of date’ products.

I’m actually thinking now of selling-on my older Play:1’s and replacing them with the newer speakers, as I think the newer ‘Ones’ sound better and they have a few more features that I’m now finding useful.

So I will just keep advancing forward with the technology. 

melvimbe

I’m rather optimistic about the future.  Sonos is still support all of it’s original ZP players and have stated they will continue to support as long as they can.  I consider the trade up program to be a positive since it’s a nice discount  to replace something I rarely use anymore.

 

Sonos has shown that they will add new features to exiting products if they can.  Alexa and GA integration are good examples.    Sonos came out with 3 new products last year (Move, SL, Port) plus 2 with ikea and 3 passive speakes with Sonance.  Good reason to believe there will be more products released next year.  Sonos just bought the voice assistant company Snips, which seems likely to mean they’ll be coming out with their own voice assistant in the future, filling in gaps to control Sonos that Alexa and GA don’t do.

 

Danny
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