The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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A

Good idea for a thread, @Kumar - I can understand why people are so upset, but I don’t think that Sonos are going to make any major concessions because of all this sound and fury.

I have been running a locked down system (mostly, also locked off from the internet) for a while now and it works fine simply for playing music from a NAS. If I want to listen to the radio side, then I can open it up to the internet again - but I usually keep it locked off.

I’m currently listening to a Play 5 fed via the line in by a Chromecast Audio. This cost me £30. Using Hifi cast I can stream music from a music server on a NAS, listen to radio stations via Shoutcast radio and even listen to 24 bit files (if anyone’s interested) - it also supports streaming from a local device (e.g. phone). It also completely removes the 65,000 track limit and issues regarding the amount of store used. It makes the Port look massively overpriced, IMHO.

Once the signal is in the Sonos environment, it can be used the same as any other line in - e.g. grouped with other speakers, used as the input for another Sonos speaker etc. 

I intend to use my speakers/devices until they break - and then I’ll probably buy a decent speaker with a line-in to replace them, using whatever cheap-ish streamer works best for me at that time. Luckily for me, I’ve never been interested in having the same thing playing throughout the house (e.g. party mode), so as long as I can listen to  my music wherever I want to, I’ll be happy.

K

 

Thanks Kumar,  that must have been lost in the morass of venting customers as I didn’t see that particular reply. 

 

Morass is right; I have seen the word cesspool also used. 

I happen to believe that the rants now are justified, with far less than the usual being poorly grounded this time. But there is a place for them, and my request to not bring them into this thread has been observed, something that is gratifying.

Moving on….

K

Digressing a little - I don't know if MBA schools still use the case study approach, but this one looks like the making of classic one, going all the way back to 2005, then to the introduction of Echos, to the IPO, and then to this event. It is still in the making, and ought to be ready for classes starting in a few years, regardless of how things have played out by then.

S

 

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too. 

 

@Ryan S  has said that there will be an app dedicated to working with systems being used in legacy system mode - it should not matter if all or only some products in such a system are legacy products.

 

Thanks Kumar,  that must have been lost in the morass of venting customers as I didn’t see that particular reply. 

 

Would be extremely handy if all these little nuggets were put into an actually helpful info post by @Ryan S.  Seems like all the relevant info is being put in comments and they’re saving the main posts for the PR hot air.

K

 

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too. 

 

@Ryan S  has said that there will be an app dedicated to working with systems being used in legacy system mode - it should not matter if all or only some products in such a system are legacy products.

K

The gamble is also that they can out-innovate Amazon, Google and Apple (among many others) in this space. I’m skeptical.

 

Against the contrary opinions of some enthusiasts here, I have believed that ever since I started using Echo devices wired to Sonos Line In jacks and have said so often enough here. And Sonos line in jacks only because they were at hand; buying new, it would have been quality active speaker input jacks. I am counting on these line in jacks to remain viable for a long time to come, notwithstanding any future antics of Sonos short of a meltdown. 

Time will tell. In some ways I feel for Spence, looking like being caught in a second consecutive inflection point, after the BlackBerry one.

S

Nice to see a sensible thread without the rants, justified though they are.  Getting some good ideas.

 

My concern is something most people seem to either be ignoring or just glossing over - the controller app.

I’m with everyone wanting sonos to just make things work as they do now but perhaps limiting the new fangled guffery from the legacy devices. Group and stream music to all speakers, new and old, is all i ask.

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too.  Apart from the more technical minded people with android devices (who can sideload an older APK) there is no way for a device to install an older version of the controller and as i’m sure we’ve all experienced at one time or another, updating the controller sometimes forces an update of the entire system.

Given the average lifecycle of mobiles these days i’m concerned about the ability to obtain a working controller for this promised future of working firmware.

It may be a non-issue but i’d like the issue aired and adressed by sonos as well as the firmware issues.

 

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

To the second part, I think that it is precisely these options that has left Sonos feeling hemmed in, hence the gamble to reach for the 1024 Mb development potential to find a way out of the squeeze. If 50:50, it is a hell of gamble though.

The gamble is also that they can out-innovate Amazon, Google and Apple (among many others) in this space. I’m skeptical.

The trade off for this is that they had a significant brand value differentiator in their full support for legacy devices, and the ability to build out diverse systems over time with confidence. They chucked that in the trash and there’s no retrieving it.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
K

I’m not concerned about Sonos security issues under most usage scenarios. 

Since Sonos has now shifted its position on updates following the backlash, this concern may be moot anyway.

And, for the ones and twos scenarios, there are LOTS of other options, many of which are cheaper, some of which are better.

I’d say it’s 50:50.

That is reassuring, on the security front. As to the concerns being moot, my concern was how to even know whether the new position on updates is sincere and is being adhered to after May and for how long, seeing the now visible trail of broken promises, including ones from the CEO himself. 

To the second part, I think that it is precisely these options that has left Sonos feeling hemmed in, hence the gamble to reach for the 1024 Mb development potential to find a way out of the squeeze. If 50:50, it is a hell of gamble though.

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I’m not concerned about Sonos security issues under most usage scenarios. There is no inbound connection to the speakers from outside the local network unless one has misconfigured the router. That’s not say there are no possible exploitation scenarios, but they’re a very long way down the list of things to worry about.

Since Sonos has now shifted its position on updates following the backlash, this concern may be moot anyway.

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

Agreed.

I’ll reiterate that dropping support for the older devices is a function of how Sonos has chosen to engineer its products. It’s absolutely not a law of physics, despite the Sonos line that it’s to do with the capabilities of the older devices.

In their shoes, I’d improve their software system architecture to accommodate different versions (like most distributed systems do), otherwise they’ll face exactly the same ugly scenario with the next wave of deprecations.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

I think Sonos’s survival as the company we know is in the balance. I can still see people buying speakers in ones and twos, accepting they will be end-of-lifed within as little as five years. I can’t see large numbers of people continuing to buy whole-house systems, or building out large installations over time. They will look elsewhere … ideally at systems which decouple the core audio delivery from the streaming smarts.

And, for the ones and twos scenarios, there are LOTS of other options, many of which are cheaper, some of which are better.

I’d say it’s 50:50.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

Once they have the pared down Legacy software running, keeping it current and available shouldn’t be too hard. Unless something horrible is discovered there really won’t be a reason to drop it until the number of users drops to few enough that it just isn’t practical to keep it going.

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +4

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

Agreed, the only thing worse than support being pulled for older products is support pulled for all products because Sonos fails.

In terms of this topic, all my legacy products are downstairs while by modern (for now) Play:3’s are upstairs so two networks are feasible for me. If Spotify stops working I’ll unsubscribe and so long as radio keeps working I’ll be fine.
 

What I suspect I won’t do is now replace some of those conponents as I had been planning to do because they’ll be held back by needing to join the legacy network. 

K

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

chickentender

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

 

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

This is my intent using a different system to feed my legacy Connect, rather than a Port or other modern Sonos device... I do not want two Sonos networks. At all. I’d much rather quick-toggle between two open apps on my mobile (one for legacy Sonos, one for the streaming box) as opposed to (what I’m imagining) having to likely disconnect and then re-establish connection with a “modern” Sonosnet device, and back and forth. Just using the Sonos app for speaker settings and grouping changes is much preferable, and then moving to whichever app controls the new “brains" of the operation will be simpler. 
I tried this today using my TV for streaming Pandora as well as PLEX from my NAS and it was honestly simple as could be. I’m beginning to feel fine about now merely leaving Sonos as a wireless speaker network and nothing more. This means there’ll be no more follow-on purchases from me for Sonos’ to rely on as they have relied on from most of us unfortunately; my speaker network expansions will be “legacy” based and in the form of 2nd-hand (and laughably cheap in comparison to new) sunsetted devices that we’re already seeing on the market. The more I consider it all, the more comfortable I am with it, in practice and in wallet.

 

chickentender

(duplicate posted delete - sry, my browser keeps doing this for some reason recently)

K

Further to the above, I am even now running an Echo Show 5 - now that a display is cheap - into my Connect Amp line in because Sonos still has not brought the Alexa integration to India. It works brilliantly to the extent that I use the Sonos app only when I want to play music from the NAS. It also confers the Connect Amp with bluetooth capability for when that is needed - the Show can take inputs via Bluetooth. And the thick icing on the cake is what no Sonos unit can do even today - display album art for the track being played.

All hail Line In...:-).

K

@Loose Moose  Yes, but why do you need the upstream Connect then? Any make streamer that has a line out would do the job. And it would be simpler too, because with two Sonos systems running in the home, with two different apps, it may get tiresome very soon.

To be honest when I read the suggestion, I had a “why did I not think of that” moment, but regretfully, that did not last for more than a minute:-).

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

 

 I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version.

 

That helps, and is good to know. How many years now? No issues with streaming service functionality till now?

 

Since before April/2018

We mainly use Spotify, Internet Radio, and still some local library.  If I was having any issues I would take the update and lose the features in the PC desktop.  I am just seeing how long I can go.  Lost the 8.4  App on an IPad but all the Androids still working with a force install of the 8.4 APK file.

 

@Loose Moose .  The Line In will become our savior, me thinks.  I like your Idea of feeding one with a New Sonos device just to get access to streaming services that get hosed on Legacy.  There will be lots of options to plug in, unfortunately you may be grouping with one app and selecting music with another.  Sonos will likely have to allow multiple instances of the App, or maybe there will be 2 versions on the App Stores, one for SONOS Legacy and one for SONOS V2. We will wait and see.

Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
L
Userlevel 2

 

@Loose Moose : The upstream Connect would play music before the downstream via Line In Connect plays it because the downstream one has to do a analog to digital and then back to analog conversion. In addition and more contributory as a cause, it has to first build a buffer to ensure that other Sonos devices on its system that may be grouped with it are able to be in sync - this, even if the grouping function is not being used. 

 

@Kumar: I understand, but if a Connect / Port is not playing anything ‘upstream’ ie is not syncing itself with any Sonos speakers, and is only connecting via its line-out to the line-in on a connect:amp, wouldn’t everything on the legacy side sync just fine?  In other words the legacy ones all sync with each other but not with the Connect / Port, but that doesn’t matter because the only role of the non-legacy device is to send internet music to the legacy system via line out. Maybe this is part of the ‘stay tuned until May’ message we have been hearing….

K

 

 I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version.

 

That helps, and is good to know. How many years now? No issues with streaming service functionality till now?

@Loose Moose : The upstream Connect would play music before the downstream via Line In Connect plays it because the downstream one has to do a analog to digital and then back to analog conversion. In addition and more contributory as a cause, it has to first build a buffer to ensure that other Sonos devices on its system that may be grouped with it are able to be in sync - this, even if the grouping function is not being used. 

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

Good Discussion. Thanks for starting the thread.

I am definitely going to stay Legacy.  I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version. I planning one more software update to prep some spares I have collected. Maybe sneak some bargains in the used market.  I will lock it down again untill the dust settles. As Streaming services drop, I will find a way to add devices to the “line in” as needed. Inconvenient, but workable.

I have the fortune of full control and automation of the system using Homeseer, so tasks can be automated and maybe homeseer will become a more important part of the control instead of the Sonos App. There has been plenty of 3rd party integrations that have taken off in the last 5years using the UPNP control and I don’t think Sonos can afford to mess with this. (ie, SmartThings, Control4, Crestron, etc).  A Hardwired Multi Zone Amp/Speaker setup will be my next whole home music system.

The question for me is, how long will Sonos keep the Legacy Software version available for New purchases?  If they make the “Legacy Mode” available on new items , I may purchase some more Sonos product, since they will work with what I have.  Once I can no longer add/group devices to my current system, I will lock things down and wait patiently wait for hardware to die. I’m confident I should get 3-5 years out of this system yet. Plenty of time to wire the house for dumb amps and speakers at the core.

Just another “First World Problem”.  Not going to blow a fuse over it, instead I will turn it into another fun integration project.  My “ZonePlayers” should not have kept functioning this long anyways.

 

Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
L
Userlevel 2

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

 

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

A
Userlevel 2

What’s truly crazy is that the new feature they’re screwing us all over for is voice control, and I don’t even want that in my system - I’d actively disable it.  Do they really think people want to scream at their Sonos gear to change songs or search while playing something?  They already got the home automation crowd upset at them for buying Snips and then shutting it down.  Now they’re doing their best to get all their existing customers boycotting them by forcing Snips into all the audio playback equipment in market, and that’s how we get here, today.

 

I know I can’t continue to recommend Sonos gear anymore, and I’m not buying new equipment for existing systems, either.  If they’re going to play this game, buying Alexa or Google smart speakers is far less expensive.  We’ll see how Sonos stock does after they actually EOL existing equipment.

 

Once my existing systems stop working, I’ll be going back to old-school multi-zone amplifier setups, and just tack on generic dumb wireless speakers for where I can’t wire.  Such a shame...

K

How about a non-legacy Connect connected to a legacy connect via the RCA jacks. One as part of the legacy system and one on the non-legacy system?

You’d have to group the legacy gear to the legacy Connect using a controller on the legacy side but then you could do everything else from the non-legacy side as long as the legacy Connect was grouped with what you are listening to.

With all the screaming I’m going to be watching for used gear at fire-sale prices and may well snap something up for the few places I don’t have Sonos now.

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time. Which is why I think that any two systems idea is not a viable solution; it negates the  multiroom concept which is a major Sonos USP. As to buying used gear, another excellent idea, provided you know how to avoid getting devices marked for recycling.

@Loose Moose : Sonos has said that legacy system capability to work with local NAS will not degrade over time; it will only end when the hardware fails. Based on that it is reasonable to assume that capability to accept inputs to the line in jacks will also continue to work as now, without degradation.

@Snikom : With reference to your comment: My current plan is to run as legacy for as long as possible and then use the line to one of my play 5’s for any music over the internet when services start to fail. - that is exactly what I plan to do, and I see no reason for this to not work. For your play 5, replace my Connect/Connect Amps, that’s all.

Thank heavens for the line in jacks and the happy coincidence that the three legacy units being left behind all have these, to allow them an anchor into the real world. Now, if the play 1 units had been the first to go...I even have a topic here that I started a couple of years ago on how useful line in jacks are and why the play 1 missed being a truly great product because it lacks these. And that was way before this event.

At this time, my only concern after May will be to ensure that I don’t inadvertently wreck my 6 zone system by letting an update to the play 1 units slip through. Indeed, I would now be happy if my play 1 units also join the legacy list, so I don't have to worry about that happening because my legacy units happened to be powered off; all would be legacy.

@chickentender :Of course we have options and more may emerge by May - both short term ones and those that can be longer term ones to ensure we are not bitten again.

Moving on: I see a subtle but significant change in the Sonos messaging, forced by the firestorm. The first announcement essentially said that those that don’t want to stay with Sonos by jettisoning legacy products, can choose to not stay, but with a system that will degrade over time where streaming service functionality is concerned, even where said system contains modern products.

Now the messages coming out proclaim that things are not as dire as that for those that choose to stay back - Sonos will do all it possibly can by providing us with bug fixes, and even updates necessary to maintain streaming service functionality, to the extent permitted by the memory available in legacy devices. Even with that last qualification, this is progress:-). The proof of the pudding will be in the eating of course, but the statement of intent is a welcome first step.

One can now keep hoping that more adverse reactions will lead to the next step - that for those that stay back, modern products in legacy systems will keep marching ahead, albeit with features that will not be available to the legacy products - but grouped multi room play across the entire system will be possible. If Sonos were to find a way to get to this place, there will be no legitimate reason for any complaints.

A case then, for the protests to continue; outside of this thread though:-).

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

I was thinking about the issue, it doesn’t impact me directly as I traded out all my old gear but maybe things that might work for others.

How about a non-legacy Connect connected to a legacy connect via the RCA jacks. One as part of the legacy system and one on the non-legacy system?

You’d have to group the legacy gear to the legacy Connect using a controller on the legacy side but then you could do everything else from the non-legacy side as long as the legacy Connect was grouped with what you are listening to.

With all the screaming I’m going to be watching for used gear at fire-sale prices and may well snap something up for the few places I don’t have Sonos now. Oh, and anybody letting a Sub go cheap! That is first on my list!

I’m resisting looking at Sonos stock as hard as I can, really don’t want back in the market for individual stocks at my age but if it gets too tempting I may bite. Spouse and primary tax preparer may skin me if I don’t turn a fat profit.

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