Why am I now being forced to create and link a Sonos account to the controller just to be able to add speakers to the system? There is absolutely no reason why this needs to happen.
Poor form Sonos. This should be an optional step. As such, I will no longer be buying any more devices.
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Hi,
As mentioned in the thread before this is "poor form" by Sonos. I have no intention of buying or using any online services, so preparing for that is just a pain. Opening up for Alexa and other voice command services is just one huge security risk, which I absolutely do not want.
I expect my system to work offline and also to continue functioning in the future, regardless of whether Sonos changes their services, services become temporarily unavailable or Sonos goes bankrupt.
I am NOT, I repeat: NOT, interested in the tie in that Sonos is now doing.
I will not be purchasing any more Sonos products and I will continue to dissuade any potential buyers I come across to warn them that this tie in will lock them in and there is a big risk that their equipment will become unusable in the future.
There are countless examples of services that have been discontinued by their companies willingly or through bankrupcy that make the equipment unusable. This is NOT HOW YOU CREATE LOYAL CUSTOMERS.
As mentioned in the thread before this is "poor form" by Sonos. I have no intention of buying or using any online services, so preparing for that is just a pain. Opening up for Alexa and other voice command services is just one huge security risk, which I absolutely do not want.
I expect my system to work offline and also to continue functioning in the future, regardless of whether Sonos changes their services, services become temporarily unavailable or Sonos goes bankrupt.
I am NOT, I repeat: NOT, interested in the tie in that Sonos is now doing.
I will not be purchasing any more Sonos products and I will continue to dissuade any potential buyers I come across to warn them that this tie in will lock them in and there is a big risk that their equipment will become unusable in the future.
There are countless examples of services that have been discontinued by their companies willingly or through bankrupcy that make the equipment unusable. This is NOT HOW YOU CREATE LOYAL CUSTOMERS.
Userlevel 7
+22
If I was going to operate mine offline for a long time I think I'd redirect the Sonos NTP queries to a local NTP server just to keep the system clocks happy. I don't see anything indication peer-to-peer clock sync without the external NTP server in the data we still have access to.
Sonos' privacy policy states very clearly that they do not, nor will they ever, sell your data. Then they specifically state what they collect, how it is used, and how to opt out of all but the data used to keep your system running and/or support it in the case of a failure.
The policy is binding, and is under the jurisdiction of the FTC, who can (and have) prosecute(d) companies for violating their own privacy policies.
See these links:
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy
https://blog.sonos.com/en/sonos-privacy/
The policy is binding, and is under the jurisdiction of the FTC, who can (and have) prosecute(d) companies for violating their own privacy policies.
See these links:
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy
https://blog.sonos.com/en/sonos-privacy/
I see the point re not having access to the interweb, might be worth asking Sonos for a new feature about this, you can still operate a wifi router or sonosnet without connection to the outside world. I'd call it local mode or offline mode.
re the posts around policy. FTC has no jurisdiction where I live, data breaches appear in the press all the time (these are the big ones of public interest but there are many many more - 12 years working at Symantec I know - its not something any CEO willingly communicates) All i'm saying is be aware of how these emerging system work and don't play into their hands. look here is a actual example. Google will tell you, if location svs is enabled, how long your commute to work is, even if you don't tell it where you work it knows. it also knows how often and for how long your phone and another phone of group of phones become co-located. say its at 10am every Tuesday at your work address (using location Svs) google knows who your work colleagues are and trust me this is the data that is bought and sold every day. Its rife and unregulated. anyhow slightly off topic so sorry for that 🙂
re the posts around policy. FTC has no jurisdiction where I live, data breaches appear in the press all the time (these are the big ones of public interest but there are many many more - 12 years working at Symantec I know - its not something any CEO willingly communicates) All i'm saying is be aware of how these emerging system work and don't play into their hands. look here is a actual example. Google will tell you, if location svs is enabled, how long your commute to work is, even if you don't tell it where you work it knows. it also knows how often and for how long your phone and another phone of group of phones become co-located. say its at 10am every Tuesday at your work address (using location Svs) google knows who your work colleagues are and trust me this is the data that is bought and sold every day. Its rife and unregulated. anyhow slightly off topic so sorry for that 🙂
Userlevel 7
+22
No but they DO have jurisdiction where the data is stored and where you live will also have data regulations which may, or may not, be more onerous than those in the US
Userlevel 7
+20
Not sure what the issue is really... Are you trying to add a Sonos One? If so, you need to link the Sonos Cloud to the Amazon Cloud, this requires an account in both.
Userlevel 7
+20
This is a requirement in the set-up for the new Sonos One. I expect that Sonos wanted a consistent process for all speakers and to enable people with older players without Alexa to have voice control if they chose too, via echo devices. Why is this such a major issue for you?
Userlevel 7
+22
2: I do not want to use Spotify. If I change my mind, I accept to have an account with Spotify. I do not want to use Alexa or all the others which hear everything you say and which support you in shutting down your brain - hence, I don't need an account.
3: Whenever possible, I give my data only when I can see the direct relation with a service (other users might decide in a different way). I cannot see why Sonos should know my position on the globe just for a speaker to work (please do not bore me with local radio which I can find via search as well). Are there some hidden features which might not be in my favour?
4: GDPR takes up this concerns and therefore Sonos should as well take up this concern (better before somebody asks officially to do so - this might be too expensive).
You're perfectly entitled to request Sonos remove some or all of your data
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy#types-information
Depending on what you request they do your system may become unusable s per YOUR agreement with Sonos (despite your assertion that that contract is worthless and you should be free to ignore it!).
I don’t think it’s currently an offence to give a pseudonym, if that helps? Although I think the U.K. law makers are currently looking into this issue and considering making it an offence to provide false identity details online.
GDPR (European Directive 25th May) or DataProtection Act 2018 (U.K. Act of Parliament with Royal Assent 23rd-May), allows an individual to see what data is being held and exactly how it is being used/shared. It’s all now done as an 'opt-in' process with written consent. If you do nothing, or do not provide consent, you are choosing to opt-out. A user can opt-out at anytime.
I assume that the situation under GDPR/DPA, is that if you opt-out and ask a company to delete all your stored personal data... you would then lose access to their services. I’m sure that is the case for companies like Netflix, the BBC, Spotify, Sony PlayStation, Google, Microsoft and Sonos, to mention but a few. There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of companies that already operate in this way.
I’m not too concerned at giving some limited details to a company, as long as it is held secure and only shared with 'others' with my written consent, which is what GDPR/DPA is about isn’t it?
At least we can ask to see what information is now being held and see exactly how it is being used... things are perhaps a lot more transparent.
I wish to use the Sonos services that they provide, so I’m opting in. In some other cases, I would use a pseudonym, before ever deciding to opt-out, as long as it was lawful to do so.
Why cut off your nose, just to spite your face?
GDPR (European Directive 25th May) or DataProtection Act 2018 (U.K. Act of Parliament with Royal Assent 23rd-May), allows an individual to see what data is being held and exactly how it is being used/shared. It’s all now done as an 'opt-in' process with written consent. If you do nothing, or do not provide consent, you are choosing to opt-out. A user can opt-out at anytime.
I assume that the situation under GDPR/DPA, is that if you opt-out and ask a company to delete all your stored personal data... you would then lose access to their services. I’m sure that is the case for companies like Netflix, the BBC, Spotify, Sony PlayStation, Google, Microsoft and Sonos, to mention but a few. There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of companies that already operate in this way.
I’m not too concerned at giving some limited details to a company, as long as it is held secure and only shared with 'others' with my written consent, which is what GDPR/DPA is about isn’t it?
At least we can ask to see what information is now being held and see exactly how it is being used... things are perhaps a lot more transparent.
I wish to use the Sonos services that they provide, so I’m opting in. In some other cases, I would use a pseudonym, before ever deciding to opt-out, as long as it was lawful to do so.
Why cut off your nose, just to spite your face?
Simple. You don't get any software updates without an account. Sonos has to validate the download. Adding a new player almost always requires an update, since the firmware ex-stock is usually stale.
The thread title is "Sonos account now required just to add a speaker?!". Are you adding a speaker? If so see my earlier post. It's entirely reasonable that Sonos would require you to validate your account before delivering a software update.
Userlevel 7
+22
To answer your earlier post: My three PLAY 1 speakers are several years old and I did not add a newer speaker. The requirement of SONOS to update the software on my PC and on the mobile devices leads to things I did not need before and I did not ask for.
Now I have one of those three speakers which is (for unknown reasons) not recognized in the WLAN anymore (although that worked for years). And simply adding it again leads to the account question (which perfectly fits the title of this thread).
You shouldn't have to "add it again". You have other issues you need to resolve
When a player is added to a system it needs to be (re-)registered against a Sonos account. All the app is doing is confirming which account. It's asking for no more information than you already typed in in order to post here.
Userlevel 2
I did not ask for software updates on my PC and on the mobile device since my three speakers worked perfectly for so far. It was the PC software to "remind" me for an update and it is obviously at the discretion of the provider to tell me when to update my software (and force me to give information I did not give so far) - otherwise I would not be able to have a working speaker anymore.
For me, it is not a matter of name or pseudonym. I have purchased a good with a certain basic functionality which I want to user further without suddenly (at discretion of the provider) being forced to new committments just to have further what I had before (and have already paid for).
The trick might be the famous "freemium" strategy - people who want to have the minimum (like me) do not provide additional data and shall not be forced to do so. People who want to benefit from additional services, are free to provide whatever it takes.
dbircher,
Slightly off topic but worth mentioning, perhaps ?
I’m sure you paid cash, but if you paid with a bank card, the company you purchased your Sonos products from probably hold your personal details too and if you applied for some kind of guarantee or warranty, then you may have 'surrendered' your details then.
Handing out some of our information is everywhere these days and it’s really just about applying a bit of common-sense to it all.
I’m not over the top about giving out my name, for example. However, I tend to keep most other things under wraps and I will use different email and physical addresses for different things online.
I am happy to agree to opt-in with some companies, but I dislike some (not all) aspects of those companies sharing details with 3rd parties, who I may know nothing about... I particularly dislike those 3rd parties trying to sell me stuff I don’t want/need, or they attempt to bombard me with phone calls, or post.
In that vein, I try to be careful in how I share my information, including using pseudonyms, deleting cookies, using proxy servers, sometimes switching off locations services, removing embedded metadata information from photos and documents etc etc; and shredding some physical documents before binning them.
But I would not lose what I would call a needed service, or product, through my 'cautious' actions. I would just opt-in, but choose to protect my real information in the best way possible, but without breaking the law.
This may prove to be more difficult, if future U.K. legislation tries to force me provide correct details for every type of online situation. That will worry me more than the current GDPR/DPA directive. In fact my thoughts are this latest data protection directive is a step in the right direction for the consumer.
I have read somewhere that the directive also says this...
'...that all personal data must be stored using pseudonymisation or full anonymisation, and use the highest-possible privacy settings by default'.
So that sounds good to me.
Just to finish this off and maybe provide some small reassurance, my own personal experience with my sharing of information with Sonos has been a good one, thus far... I certainly have no complaints.
Ken (@lias Bob ... or is it John?.. (I forget)) ha ha:D
2: I do not want to use Spotify. If I change my mind, I accept to have an account with Spotify. I do not want to use Alexa or all the others which hear everything you say and which support you in shutting down your brain - hence, I don't need an account.
3: Whenever possible, I give my data only when I can see the direct relation with a service (other users might decide in a different way). I cannot see why Sonos should know my position on the globe just for a speaker to work (please do not bore me with local radio which I can find via search as well). Are there some hidden features which might not be in my favour?
4: GDPR takes up this concerns and therefore Sonos should as well take up this concern (better before somebody asks officially to do so - this might be too expensive).
You're perfectly entitled to request Sonos remove some or all of your data
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy#types-information
Depending on what you request they do your system may become unusable s per YOUR agreement with Sonos (despite your assertion that that contract is worthless and you should be free to ignore it!).
This is also a pain for home theater and automation companies. I do all that most of my customers are rich and older. To ask them to register this device under their email is like surgery. First most of them are never home it’s always an aid or no one is home while we do the install. Second an email is sent to them. They have know idea what to look for and like no to click. Their should at least be a professional option that would let us bypass this request so the customer can do it themselves. Lutron has that capability. It allows us to configure the switches and bridge. An email is sent or text with a link so they can create an account. Once they are home the devices are automatically populated to their account b cause they are on the same WiFi. Their should also be a lockdown feature with guest capabilities. We do high en yachts and the individuals that rents the boats love that Sonos are on there. The issue is if they charter every week then they have a major turn over. Customer are chafing features and setting each time.
Thank you for your reply jgatie, and I trust you'll know that my annoyance on this theme isn't with you, it's with Sonos.
(....)
4) You can turn off the majority of data collection (Sonos does need some for diagnostics) (....)
(....)
I don't want to turn off just "the majority" of any data that Sonos might collect, and unless and until my Sonos system goes faulty, there is no reason - or there should be no reason - for Sonos to retrieve any so-called diagnostic data from my system.
Yes, if I am fully informed about what that data comprises then I am very likely to give my consent to some of it, but my default response to this option is 'No', and I should be given an absolute yes/no choice.
Can you or anyone outside of Sonos define what that 'diagnostic data' is?
(Of course that's a rhetorical question because I don't expect you actually to know the answer jgatie.)
Does Sonos tell anyone what information they glean from our use of our systems?
I do not presume that Sonos will ever use the data from my system in any sinister or bad way. I stand on the principle that 'privacy' is not divisible or conditional. If we can't control our personal privacy 100% then we don't have privacy at all.
If I want to grant visibility of any aspect of my life to anyone - however trivial that visibility might seem to some people - then I should be invited to negotiate on the details. It's a blindingly simple concept, yet we've been slowly 'persuaded' that real 'privacy' is impossible or that it's somehow beyond our reach.
In an earlier era I had no reason at all to mistrust Microsoft. Now that trust has totally evaporated.
My trust in Sonos hasn't gone completely yet, but it's fading for sure.
Colin P.
(....)
4) You can turn off the majority of data collection (Sonos does need some for diagnostics) (....)
(....)
I don't want to turn off just "the majority" of any data that Sonos might collect, and unless and until my Sonos system goes faulty, there is no reason - or there should be no reason - for Sonos to retrieve any so-called diagnostic data from my system.
Yes, if I am fully informed about what that data comprises then I am very likely to give my consent to some of it, but my default response to this option is 'No', and I should be given an absolute yes/no choice.
Can you or anyone outside of Sonos define what that 'diagnostic data' is?
(Of course that's a rhetorical question because I don't expect you actually to know the answer jgatie.)
Does Sonos tell anyone what information they glean from our use of our systems?
I do not presume that Sonos will ever use the data from my system in any sinister or bad way. I stand on the principle that 'privacy' is not divisible or conditional. If we can't control our personal privacy 100% then we don't have privacy at all.
If I want to grant visibility of any aspect of my life to anyone - however trivial that visibility might seem to some people - then I should be invited to negotiate on the details. It's a blindingly simple concept, yet we've been slowly 'persuaded' that real 'privacy' is impossible or that it's somehow beyond our reach.
In an earlier era I had no reason at all to mistrust Microsoft. Now that trust has totally evaporated.
My trust in Sonos hasn't gone completely yet, but it's fading for sure.
Colin P.
(....)
(....)
Thank you Keith for your reassurances. I'll try to avoid unwarranted worries, but I admit I'm still simmering a little.
Yes ... Touché !
Colin P.
Once again, your Sonos units have always been registered to an account. You could not have set up Sonos without one. The only change is that you must now enter that account info when you connect a new device. THIS IS FOR YOUR PROTECTION!!! It has nothing to do with Sonos collecting data, and everything to do with Sonos preventing someone from connecting to your system from the outside. .
Interesting debate in this topic. I just asked about the future of the account for another reason but this alone is a good reason to stop buying and using Sonos players. Do Sonos players actually stop working when they can’t reach the Sonos servers? And is it impossible to change your setup in this case? That would be a real dealbreaker...
No, they don't stop working if they can't reach the Sonos servers. However, they do need to hit the Sonos server when they're being set up for the first time. Once that's occurred, you can disconnect the outside world, and use them locally. It's part and parcel of buying an internet enabled speaker system.
When I moved recently, I didn't have outside internet service for several weeks in my home, yet my Sonos devices continued to play without issue from my NAS.
When I moved recently, I didn't have outside internet service for several weeks in my home, yet my Sonos devices continued to play without issue from my NAS.
Well, some - unlike others - have a offline wifi (for whatever reasons). Try connecting a new SONOS component there.. it simply does not work. Drives me crazy to jepardize my network just to connect a speaker. Next thing will be "cables" requiring a account just to power a lamp? WTF?
Yes, that's what I thought until recently. When I rebooted a couple of devices recently after making a couple of changes, they wouldn't work at all until I allowed them access to the internet, when they burst into life.
Userlevel 7
+23
Many folks have been asking for increased security on their Sonos system. The login-verification when making certain system-level changes (eg adding devices) is Sonos's way of starting to do this.
This same login is used to connect with the Sonos Cloud API, and as more third party devices/apps start using that, they too will require this account login. It is a secure way to verify users and match them to their systems.
This same login is used to connect with the Sonos Cloud API, and as more third party devices/apps start using that, they too will require this account login. It is a secure way to verify users and match them to their systems.
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