So it’s been months since S2. Before the update, S1 was already able to play back flac 24/48. The promise was of more HiRes audio to come. I sold my gen1 connect in anticipation, bought a Port. And waited. I can still play the only same files as before, I’m a couple hundred pounds down, and feeling a little duped to be honest. Just curious whether there are others feeling the same....
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So I have thought about Sonos in that way. It’s a hardware company, and if hi res really is snake oil but it’s snake oil that their customers want, it would seem logical (from a business perspective) to provide that functionality to keep people like me buying their hardware and getting deeper and deeper into their ecosystem.
They know this - and if it were easy to do, then they’d already have done it. Thing is, Sonos is designed to run many devices (up to 32 IIRC) in perfect sync. This makes much bigger demands on a network than just a few devices. Hi-res files are much bigger than CD standard, so give Sonos that much more of a technical problem, which they know will turn into a huge support problem. And for what? They’ve already said (and many here have argued) that there is no audible benefit in using hi-res files. I’ve single blind tested 320k MP3s against CD quality FLACs, and I can’t hear the difference, so I certainly don’t believe that I’d hear anything different with high-res. So why would they risk their entire eco-system to provide something that is of zero audio benefit?
Now that they’ve ditched older, less capable kit they may well do something - as you say, it’s a box to be ticked - but I doubt that it will be a priority when there are lots of other things to address.
+1
Sifting through all this hand wringing, my takeaway is that Sonos promised nothing with the release of Sonos S2, and has, so far, fully delivered on all of its promises. Great. Now that we can all accept that it’s not Sonos’s fault for failing to live up to consumers’ expectations, apparently and irresponsibly extrapolated from Sonos’s vague press releases, maybe the conversation can move to more productive subjects.
What Sonos DID expressly say, in its May 6, 2020 press release, was “[t]his new generation app features support for higher resolution audio technologies...” Of course, this is not true at the moment: S2 “features support” for Dolby Atmos, which is singular, not plural, and (I believe) is only available on the Arc device at the moment. So the statement itself is deceptive and incomplete out of the chute.
But that aside, with Sonos on record with that vague teaser, it’s completely reasonable for consumers—both those who have historically been faithful investors in the Sonos ecosystem, as well as those curious to see what all the Sonos fuss is about—to expect some sort of expansion on the plans. Does Sonos have an obligation to do that? Not at all. So that observation can be tossed aside as the irrelevant, school-marmish finger wagging that it is. But should Sonos flesh this out? Of course it should.
I fall into both categories of Sonos consumer. I’ve been in the Sonos ecosystem for 14 years, and have now had three legacy products made obsolete by Sonos S2. Okay. It’s tech. I expect a certain amount of that. But will I replace them with yet more Sonos, or is this a good time to part ways, jump ship, maybe over to the Roon system, as Roon shows greater flexibility for other manufacturers’ hardware, as well as true hi res capability across the board?
But I just moved into a new home, and have a very specific need for new hardware right now. It would be nice to know what Sonos plans, and I think my 14 years of customer loyalty and thousands of dollars of support for the company—especially in its nascent days—deserves more complete information than a vague reference to undefined “higher resolution audio technologies” at some time in the undefined future. It’s quite clearly not “future proofed” technology, so at the moment I’m leaning toward new investment in a more flexible and scalable platform. Roon’s looking pretty appealing.
Roon is also Sonos-compatible, though it downsamples hi res audio to squeeze through the Sonos hardware limitations. So a gradual phase out of Sonos is a likely game plan. I can get new, non-Sonos hardware, switch over to the Roon Core software platform, and continue to use existing Sonos products until I replace them over time.
And THAT is a strategy from its loyal customer base that should have Sonos product planners quaking as it basically ensures the eventual total obsolescence of Sonos hardware. But if Sonos came out right now and said that it plans AT A MINIMUM 24/96 within 12-18 months? I’d likely stick around and keep buying Sonos.
It’s not a requirement that Sonos answer these questions. But doing so would be, without even a hint of doubt, the smart thing to do. Because I’m not going to wait while they slowly unpeel that strategy over the next few years, and I doubt I’m alone. I’m also not going to continue buying Sonos hardware just because some audio magazine like HiFi “would be amazed” if support for other formats didn’t materialize. Just because Sonos has no obligation to comment on rumors, can’t be held responsible for the fact that some “users wish to weave press speculation into their own wishes,” arguably they do have some obligation to be accountable and transparent in how they communicate with their customers. Assuming that is, that they would like to retain those customers. Of course, if that assumption is wrong and they’re just running out the clock to eventual obsolescence, then it doesn’t matter.
I’m also a hobby photographer, and am deep into the Fujifilm X-Series ecosystem. Fuji releases a product road map which tells me at any point in time what the next 18 months is bringing to their product lineup. That practice keeps me in the Fuji system, and without it I’d probably move back to Canon or Nikon.
Sonos could learn something from that. Especially as the hi res audio and whole house/multi-zone audio markets get more crowded and customer loyalty in those spaces gets harder to earn and retain.
And THAT is a strategy from its loyal customer base that should have Sonos product planners quaking as it basically ensures the eventual total obsolescence of Sonos hardware. But if Sonos came out right now and said that it plans AT A MINIMUM 24/96 within 12-18 months? I’d likely stick around and keep buying Sonos.
The concern for obsolescence is very real already, and I will say why I say so - but I do not think that Hi Res will save the day for Sonos to any great extent. I am also sure that the S2 move was not just for the ability to offer Hi Res.
While I bought into Sonos back in 2011 and all my dozen or so units still work fine, it is now a different market. For instance, for my patio where I had a Connect driven stereo speaker pair, I achieved a very significant elevation in sound quality by adding a mono speaker to extend coverage and a subwoofer for a better, albeit subtle bass presence. I did not need any Sonos products to do this, nor would Hi Res have yielded this elevated quality. Indeed, on a standalone basis the source for the music is a Echo Show 5 wired to the third party stereo amp, with the Connect out of the loop. The Connect only remains there wired to another aux in pair on said amp because I need it to pipe audio from a TV in the patio around the adjacent open plan spaces that have Sonos zones serving them. Were it not for that need, the Connect would be retired. Loyalty to Sonos would not stand in the way.
Hi Res is just a distraction that a very small part of the Sonos target market is bothered about - the market that now finds perfectly good solutions from the Amazons/Googles for a lot lesser spend.
The Sonos challenge is staying relevant in that market, not staying ahead of niche players like Bluesound and the like that offer Hi Res to differentiate from Sonos in that small market. Winning just there will not help Sonos survive.
The thing is that unlike in the case of computers and even TVs, there has been no real change in sound quality levels in Home Audio after the digital era began with CDs. Quality passive speakers and amps from decades ago, if in good working condition, sound just as good as the latest offerings. What has changed is the music delivery mechanism and in that, Sonos has to now stay abreast of big tech. That is the cause for sleepless nights in Sonos. Or should be, IMO.
What I should probably do is take your advice and see what’s left of that nostalgia after it’s put through rigorous experimentation under bright klieg lights.
Thinking about labels like ECM, Deutsche Grammophone, Chesky, Denon, or artists like Roger Waters.
But if you don’t mind, may I impose on you to give me a brief explanation of how you set things up with the Connect (which I have) or the Echo Show devices in partnership with the Sonos hardware? You also mentioned “the magic of line in jacks,” but not all Sonos hardware has that functionality (except for ethernet) and I’m not entirely clear on what such a rig would look like. I’m not a very creative wirer so I’m not sure how one would use Sonos gear as “dumb hardware” as you mentioned. I have no experience at all with Echo Show devices so don’t quite see how that would mesh with a house-wide Sonos environment.
Also, on the subject of photo equipment manufacturers
In order of the above:
Nothing says that you cannot turn the lights down low after the experimentation:-)). Actually, that, with some wine/whisky is the most reliable way to get music to sound a lot better, I have found. At times I do miss the glowing tubes of my sold tube amp, but now that I have found out that the warmth it provides is just a mild layer of distortion at best, I don't need that glow.
I know the labels you refer to, and they are all there on Spotify. Streamed at its highest quality, 320 kbps, Spotify is also as good a service as sound quality at home demands. My finding tallies with that of
The magic of Sonos line in jacks lies in the fact that a source wired to them can be set up to play with a Sonos player that does not have them, via line in settings for the unit with jacks in the Sonos app. All one needs in a given space is one Sonos unit blessed with those jacks, like Connect, and if its line in is set to autoplay the Connect will come awake from standby whenever the unit wired to it starts playing.
I came to Echo devices after losing patience with Sonos who have still to release the Alexa Sonos integration in India, three years after Amazon released Alexa in India. I don't use any of the other Alexa stuff except for a occasional time check, but as a dedicated source for music (and occasional use clock) commanded by voice it brings the next dimension to music delivery that I needed, and I discovered that even a simple Dot wired to line in jacks of Sonos brings me that for close to free - about USD 35 including the cost of a bog standard RCA to 3.5 stereo minijack cable, with no change in sound quality. Last year, Amazon released Echo Show 5, a well priced Echo that has a screen display. That gives me another feature - album art for whatever is playing, something that I have missed in Sonos from day one, having long been accustomed to the simple one line LED matrix displays in CD players. My open space living/dining area is served by a Connect Amp/legacy speakers, a play 1 pair+ Sub, and a couple of play 1 units, for an even spread of sound across the space when needed. With a Show 5 wired to the Connect Amp, the music it supplies can be heard across the space, from such Sonos units that are in the Connect Amp group. Using Spotify Connect or voice to command music play on the Show, bypassing the Sonos controller app. With album art of what is playing. And, the gimmick of lyrics.
With this background when Sonos pulled the S1/S2 stunt, I decided I would stay on S1 and not buy Sonos again in future because I saw nothing useful coming from them in future for music play. And I see no reason why I will lose anything by this, since I expect my Sonos hardware to function for many more years before it dies. I was very annoyed to be told by Sonos that if I wanted to stay abreast of future improvements, I need to dump hardware that is in excellent working condition. Even if the green thing was not a thing, I would be annoyed. Using line in jacks, the downstream Sonos kit turns into dumb hardware that will work as such with no support from Sonos, till the hardware dies a natural death. So, S1 for me, is the last Sonos version.
The above will give you insights on how a similar approach can be made to work for you.
As to photography, where the analogy breaks down is that cameras are active tools to take new pictures involving on going and extensive user interaction all the time with the device, while Sonos and all home audio is passive kit to deliver recorded music. There is no user interaction other than with the volume control sliders and track selection. A better comparison with cameras is music making instruments like guitars and the like. But that said, the legacy camera industry faces similar existential challenges from big tech now.
Only commented after getting an email about Qobuz partnering with Sonos to start doing basically CD quality ‘hi-res’ (not the proper hi-res you can get on Roon, Tidal or Qobuz
Leaving aside the question of any objectively established hearable benefit of more than CD quality files from the same master, it is interesting to see how CD quality has now suddenly become Hi Res. Amazon started this, and others seem to have jumped on it. I wonder why?
Hi res isn't a dream, it is a mirage made by clever marketing.
Further, even on lossless rips: I was a big fan till I discovered Spotify/Apple Music and found no difference on listening to the same albums I had ripped. So now I am quite happy to use just Spotify and have found that life is simpler with a much larger window to the world of music.
I never use headphones, and Hi Res can perhaps be picked out when recorded as such using headphones for listening. But the ambient sound levels in a typical urban domestic listening environment are so high that these differences can't be heard above the noise floor using even high end kit.
I don’t recall Sonos stating that there would be hi res of a specific quality released at a certain date. Searching a few different new articles from last June, they impression I get is that such a feature would be later rather than sooner. I get that people want it now, regardless, but I don’t know that you can blame Sonos for not meeting expectations they never stated they would meet.
If you can find a reference where Sonos staff state that hi res would be implemented in a matter of months, they you would have a point. Otherwise, I don’t think you really claim you were duped.
As an aside, the fact you feel this way is exactly why Sonos usually avoids making any statements about future product enhancements.
So do you think the pre-S2 24/48 files sound noticeably better than ordinary CD quality 16 bit files?
I think we all wanted our streaming services to suddenly becoming out of our speakers in some fantastic hi res format that would blow our socks off but of course that didn't happen either.
I didn’t care about hi res format because I’m aware that my ears cannot tell the difference between hi res and CD quality audio. Any blown off socks would be entirely psychosomatic.
The massive change on day 1 that you were expecting was entirely the product of your own imagination, not promises made by Sonos.
Sonos don't generally give any expectations - they make a point of not doing so. They never respond one way or another to speculation, rumour, leaks or 'stories'. I may be mistaken but I don't think Sonos themselves actually said anything about hires being in S2 on day 1 until the exact details were announced. If you can find me the evidence that they did then I shall gladly admit my mistake. (I am genuinely not sure about this.)
“While Sonos is currently offering very little in the way of specifics around the Sonos S2 platform, it has said that the upgraded audio bandwidth will "enable higher resolution technologies for music and home theatre". We'd be amazed if that didn't mean support for high-resolution audio content from the likes of Qobuz and Tidal (MQA seems likely), as well as Dolby Atmos surround sound capabilities.
We're told that these updates won't arrive immediately, though. In fact the only new feature detailed so far is 'Room Groups'. “
As I have said, Sonos never comment on rumours. If they were to deny one speculation, then any future failure to deny another rumour would be taken as endorsement. So, consistently throughout their existence, they have adopted a ‘no comment’ approach.
If some users wish to weave press speculation into their own wishes and then berate Sonos for failing to meet their unfounded expectations, that is their business.
(Although in fact further HiRes support may come - just don’t expect Sonos to say what and when before it happens.)
I was referring to press speculation, not suggesting you were doing the speculating.
However, an article is not a Sonos promise. As it happens, The Verge is normally a reliable and balanced source of information. And it was so here, which is why it says that S2 will have ‘expanded capabilities’ and ‘allow for’ hires to be added.
Sonos promised nothing for day 1 S2, and even the reporting actually seems to have reflected that. How this got translated into ‘false promises’ by Sonos is something you are better placed to comment on than I.
I don't know what problem you have but Hi Res isn't the answer to any because it does nothing by virtue of more bits/samples. The Hi Res file downsampled to a resolution that Sonos can play today, sounds the same as Hi Res does, in a blind test. Any differences heard are down to a different master used for Hi Res, or bumped up sound levels. Eliminate those variables, and the differences disappear.
Wire a Connect via a stereo amp of adequate power to your legacy speakers, and they will sound like they always did. Or, for that matter, even an Echo Dot in place of the Connect. As long as the same recording is being used for source via either device.
More on the subject, if you also have owned music on a NAS which was THE source of music for Sonos when we bought into it. Sonos now does not see NAS users as important, because by their reckoning, over 90% of listening on Sonos is now done via streaming services. This is why Sonos does not do much to support development of features for NAS use - I believe that voice commands to start music play from a NAS are still missing in Sonos, for example.
This is another Sonos issue I have been able to sidestep by using a USB stick with all my ripped music on it, plugged into a Raspberry PI. With an instance of My Media for Alexa on the PI, Echos now accept voice commands to play songs/albums/playlists wirelessly from the USB stick, with album art on screen equipped Echos. Piped via line in to any Sonos speaker I wish to hear it on.
If Sonos sees our use cases as having become irrelevant to them, we can in turn make Sonos less relevant in our homes by various such cheap workarounds.
We have meandered a ways from the Hi Res subject, so apologies for that to any other readers on this thread. But if it helps some to see how much of a red herring/distraction this Hi Res issue is, and how irrelevant to music play/ listening pleasure on Echos/Sonos/legacy HiFi kit, I think I may be excused.
I think I have answered most of your questions in preceding posts.
I have no idea of what JRiver/VOX/Roon do or will do for me when I have no perceived holes in my user experience so I can’t comment on these solutions.
According to the top-tier support rep I was working with; Because of the Sonosnet congestion/standing tree issues and the number of Sonos components we have (16-18) Sonos HD Radio will probably continue to drop out on wireless units, lag, start songs later than wired units, and present quality listening issues until Sonos is able to resolve them. They determined that it is NOT my set-up/Wi-Fi/Equipment/ISP speeds. It’s most likely the limitations of a mix of S2 ready Gen2 components with fully S2-built units and HD bandwidth requirements.
In other worlds, NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME YET. Amazon HD can cause such Sonosnet constipation as well but not as consistently as Amazon throttles back it’s HD broadcasts throughout the day depending on their AWS needs.
Using S2, there is support for 24bit sreaming.
Example with Qobuz:
https://support.sonos.com/s/article/1782?language=en_US
In my qobuz account I can select le quality level for SONOS up to 24bit/48KHz (not really HiRes, but close, better than CD Quality)
Userlevel 1
If Sonos could downsample Hi res files to 24/48 and play them it would be a start.
Fact is this is already possible, even with first generation Sonos Zone Players, just not using Sonos’ antiquated system.
Instead of making my “old” Sonos players “redundant” (as they tried to make us) or instead of giving Sonos yet more money on “newer” versions of Sonos products that still have the exact same, decades out of date, networking technology, I bought myself a Roon subscription (running it off a Mac Mini) and, hey presto, I get hi-res music streamed (transcoded where required) to ALL my Sonos players, and to my Macs, iPhones/iPads, or indeed any compatible hi-end (or low end) devices too. It seamlessly streams hi-res Qobuz or Tidal tracks too.
What’s more, the interface is about 10 Billion times better and makes playing all your music (both streamed and local sources in one “library”) a real joy again, and finding related and new tracks and artists. Sonos meanwhile never even had a “recently added” or played list when I last used it! All this cost less for a lifetime subscription than to buy Sonos’ latest new machine. Will never look back. Only commented after getting an email about Qobuz partnering with Sonos to start doing basically CD quality ‘hi-res’ (not the proper hi-res you can get on Roon, Tidal or Qobuz
Sifting through all this hand wringing, my takeaway is that Sonos promised nothing with the release of Sonos S2, and has, so far, fully delivered on all of its promises. Great. Now that we can all accept that it’s not Sonos’s fault for failing to live up to consumers’ expectations, apparently and irresponsibly extrapolated from Sonos’s vague press releases, maybe the conversation can move to more productive subjects.
What Sonos DID expressly say, in its May 6, 2020 press release, was “[t]his new generation app features support for higher resolution audio technologies...” Of course, this is not true at the moment: S2 “features support” for Dolby Atmos, which is singular, not plural, and (I believe) is only available on the Arc device at the moment. So the statement itself is deceptive and incomplete out of the chute.
But that aside, with Sonos on record with that vague teaser, it’s completely reasonable for consumers—both those who have historically been faithful investors in the Sonos ecosystem, as well as those curious to see what all the Sonos fuss is about—to expect some sort of expansion on the plans. Does Sonos have an obligation to do that? Not at all. So that observation can be tossed aside as the irrelevant, school-marmish finger wagging that it is. But should Sonos flesh this out? Of course it should.
I fall into both categories of Sonos consumer. I’ve been in the Sonos ecosystem for 14 years, and have now had three legacy products made obsolete by Sonos S2. Okay. It’s tech. I expect a certain amount of that. But will I replace them with yet more Sonos, or is this a good time to part ways, jump ship, maybe over to the Roon system, as Roon shows greater flexibility for other manufacturers’ hardware, as well as true hi res capability across the board?
But I just moved into a new home, and have a very specific need for new hardware right now. It would be nice to know what Sonos plans, and I think my 14 years of customer loyalty and thousands of dollars of support for the company—especially in its nascent days—deserves more complete information than a vague reference to undefined “higher resolution audio technologies” at some time in the undefined future. It’s quite clearly not “future proofed” technology, so at the moment I’m leaning toward new investment in a more flexible and scalable platform. Roon’s looking pretty appealing.
Roon is also Sonos-compatible, though it downsamples hi res audio to squeeze through the Sonos hardware limitations. So a gradual phase out of Sonos is a likely game plan. I can get new, non-Sonos hardware, switch over to the Roon Core software platform, and continue to use existing Sonos products until I replace them over time.
And THAT is a strategy from its loyal customer base that should have Sonos product planners quaking as it basically ensures the eventual total obsolescence of Sonos hardware. But if Sonos came out right now and said that it plans AT A MINIMUM 24/96 within 12-18 months? I’d likely stick around and keep buying Sonos.
It’s not a requirement that Sonos answer these questions. But doing so would be, without even a hint of doubt, the smart thing to do. Because I’m not going to wait while they slowly unpeel that strategy over the next few years, and I doubt I’m alone. I’m also not going to continue buying Sonos hardware just because some audio magazine like HiFi “would be amazed” if support for other formats didn’t materialize. Just because Sonos has no obligation to comment on rumors, can’t be held responsible for the fact that some “users wish to weave press speculation into their own wishes,” arguably they do have some obligation to be accountable and transparent in how they communicate with their customers. Assuming that is, that they would like to retain those customers. Of course, if that assumption is wrong and they’re just running out the clock to eventual obsolescence, then it doesn’t matter.
I’m also a hobby photographer, and am deep into the Fujifilm X-Series ecosystem. Fuji releases a product road map which tells me at any point in time what the next 18 months is bringing to their product lineup. That practice keeps me in the Fuji system, and without it I’d probably move back to Canon or Nikon.
Sonos could learn something from that. Especially as the hi res audio and whole house/multi-zone audio markets get more crowded and customer loyalty in those spaces gets harder to earn and retain.
So I have thought about Sonos in that way. It’s a hardware company, and if hi res really is snake oil but it’s snake oil that their customers want, it would seem logical (from a business perspective) to provide that functionality to keep people like me buying their hardware and getting deeper and deeper into their ecosystem.
They know this - and if it were easy to do, then they’d already have done it. Thing is, Sonos is designed to run many devices (up to 32 IIRC) in perfect sync. This makes much bigger demands on a network than just a few devices. Hi-res files are much bigger than CD standard, so give Sonos that much more of a technical problem, which they know will turn into a huge support problem. And for what? They’ve already said (and many here have argued) that there is no audible benefit in using hi-res files. I’ve single blind tested 320k MP3s against CD quality FLACs, and I can’t hear the difference, so I certainly don’t believe that I’d hear anything different with high-res. So why would they risk their entire eco-system to provide something that is of zero audio benefit?
Now that they’ve ditched older, less capable kit they may well do something - as you say, it’s a box to be ticked - but I doubt that it will be a priority when there are lots of other things to address.
For me at least, what is higher than half a purchased true HD music library that is unplayable on Sonos?
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Mmmm, yes I wholeheartedly agree that trying to sell us back CD quality (which many of us gave up for the flexibility of streaming) as “Hi-res” is just marketing b@ll@cks! But they’re all very good at that I guess 😉
I also have a Chord Mojo and Poly combination (for both headphone listening and feeding active speakers) in addition to many Sonos players so I can attest to not being as impressed as I’d hoped to be by listening to even proper Hi-res audio compared to CD quality. I found I got a bigger improvement from just the better DAC in my Chord Mojo to the Sonos players (listening to just CD quality files). Context is everything though so, unless you’re going to listen in a quiet, sound treated environment or headphones, you’re not going to care too much about the streaming quality if you’ve got conversation going on or are listening in your car.
The listening experience has been most improved by using the Roon interface instead of Sonos for me. It’s made choosing music and finding new artists a real joy again. Love it!
I like to buy CD's and then transfer to my NAS as FLAC files, sounds like I'm living the "Hi Res" dream already.
Is Roon a substitute for the Sonos App?.
For me at least, what is higher than half a purchased true HD music library that is unplayable on Sonos?
Caveat emptor, surely….
The whole S2 app upgrade promised so much at the time, and I thought it was going to be a huge upgrade that took Sonos to a new level but? I wanted a new app that looked modern with an intuitive interface, something that said this is a quality system, I got the same looking app but in mustard yellow. Hi res audio was a dream that never really materialised, unless you had hi res files in your library. I think we all wanted our streaming services to suddenly becoming out of our speakers in some fantastic hi res format that would blow our socks off but of course that didn't happen either. Sonos radio was launched as part of this new S2 app and within months it's broken, now I understand that it has a lot to do with the Tune-in legal situation, but if your gonna launch something called Sonos radio then you expect Sonos to have done their due diligence on the company who's system they are going to use. Maybe as Sonos users we allowed ourselves to believe that Sonos were going to reward us with some goodies for the upheaval that was part of the S2 introduction, but in reality they just hinted that they would and we bought it again .
John B nope I knew what the S2 app was designed to do it was to get us all to update our equipment, or in other words give Sonos money, I understand the memory issues and that older equipment may hold back future development, yep get all that but it's a two way street . I gave Sonos money to upgrade the one speaker I needed to ensure that I had a fully integrated one app system, like I had before S2, what did Sonos give me in return? Sure a new speaker and ? You say that it's to ensure future development so the question is when do I see these new developments? If Sonos radio is a new development it's broke !
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