I have been away from the forum for a while, but am still looking forward to getting a SONOS. :)
I have a question about the digital output and the SONOS volume control. HOw do they interact? I plan for an outboard DAC, and I would like to connect it straight to an amplifer without any kind of preamp if I can get away with it.....is this recommended? Or does the volume control effect the digital signal adversely?
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Userlevel 2
Ah!
So all (most) of the electronics in a simple pre-amp (and there does seem to be alot of bulk to even the simplest ones) is to equalize/cancel environmental factors like cable capacitance? cool! learn something every (other) day.
Hrm. I would have thought inductance to be more important in longer runs, tho I will admit to not having considered the balanced case, and in either case, I had assumed both quite negligible.
Could you prehaps point (or explain inline) to some explanations about how potentiometers might introduce frequency response errors? I had just assumed that high-end ones at lease were effectively just resistors with tunable resistance, perhaps in discrete steps, which I must admit I don't see affecting freq. response, capacitance, or inductance.
but then, I have already admitted to a poor grasp of elecronics (P=UI is as far as I got, along with maybe U=RI -- and not even sure about the last one), so I'm likely making bad assumptions somewheres.
So all (most) of the electronics in a simple pre-amp (and there does seem to be alot of bulk to even the simplest ones) is to equalize/cancel environmental factors like cable capacitance? cool! learn something every (other) day.
Hrm. I would have thought inductance to be more important in longer runs, tho I will admit to not having considered the balanced case, and in either case, I had assumed both quite negligible.
Could you prehaps point (or explain inline) to some explanations about how potentiometers might introduce frequency response errors? I had just assumed that high-end ones at lease were effectively just resistors with tunable resistance, perhaps in discrete steps, which I must admit I don't see affecting freq. response, capacitance, or inductance.
but then, I have already admitted to a poor grasp of elecronics (P=UI is as far as I got, along with maybe U=RI -- and not even sure about the last one), so I'm likely making bad assumptions somewheres.
jojohohanon,
"Passive" preamps are available in the marketplace. (usually from "high end" $ource$) Incorporating a balance control and a crude tone control are possible too.
Before these passive preamps came to market, I would build them in little boxes. They can be great problem solvers, but they can also cause trouble.
Simple volume controls of this type, high end or not, can introduce noise and control position related frequency response errors. These devices are much more sensitive to cable capacitance than active devices.
"Passive" preamps are available in the marketplace. (usually from "high end" $ource$) Incorporating a balance control and a crude tone control are possible too.
Before these passive preamps came to market, I would build them in little boxes. They can be great problem solvers, but they can also cause trouble.
Simple volume controls of this type, high end or not, can introduce noise and control position related frequency response errors. These devices are much more sensitive to cable capacitance than active devices.
Userlevel 2
I suprised that there aren't DACs with built-in volume controls.
As a cheap experiment, you could always build yourself a simple passive volume control using high-quality potentiometers, and see whether that sounds better than the digital volume.
But then, truth be told, I'm not too hot on electronics: I could never figure out why pre-amps had any other parts than an input selector and a potentiometer. Obviously, this would offer no features like balance or tone adjustments, and you'd have to manually turn down the volume when changing inputs, but this would seem to be the simplest, cleanest, pre-amp possible. Yet I've never seen such a beast.
Perhaps someone here knows why that wouldn't work?
As a cheap experiment, you could always build yourself a simple passive volume control using high-quality potentiometers, and see whether that sounds better than the digital volume.
But then, truth be told, I'm not too hot on electronics: I could never figure out why pre-amps had any other parts than an input selector and a potentiometer. Obviously, this would offer no features like balance or tone adjustments, and you'd have to manually turn down the volume when changing inputs, but this would seem to be the simplest, cleanest, pre-amp possible. Yet I've never seen such a beast.
Perhaps someone here knows why that wouldn't work?
I have an audiophile setup and also use the ZP80 digital volume control. I agree that the sound is very good. Since it sounds good, I decided the convenience of using the volume control on the hand-held controller far outweighs any agonizing about some lost bits when attenuating the volume.
But this does not negate the use of a good preamp. There's a misconception that adding another device to the signal path will degrade the sound, when in fact it can enhance the sound tremendously.
I use a very high gain preamp. The result is a much more open sound across the entire audio range and rock solid bass response with an amazing harmonic richness. I use the analogue outputs (heresy, I know!) of the ZP80 because I find that the high gain, quality output of the preamp renders other factors (such as the use of an external DAC and expensive interconnects) insignificant.
Others will disagree with me, but I alone know the truth. 😉 Trust me. You won't be disappointed.
I just checked the Electrocompaniet website. Their model EC 4.8 preamp puts out 30 volts. I bet that sucker sounds pretty good. Give it try.
Userlevel 2
I have 3 ZP80, 2 ZP100 and 2 controllers. I use itunes and ripp to apple lossless. 😃
In one room i have PMC Gb1 floorstanding loudspeakers powered by Electrocompaniet AW60 power amp connected with Kimber XLR to Electrocompaniet DAC1. The DAC is connected cia MIT coax cable to a ZP80.
I am using the ZP80s digital volume control and THE SOUND IS VERY GOOD!!!
After this discussion above i was a little bit concerned if the sound quality is reduced in my setup. I called Electrocompaniets service department and they confirmed that a digital volume control before the dac will recalculate the signal, but still my setup after the ZP80 is very "clean". If i add a preamp, i will need another analouge cabel and this will also affect the sound they said!
[SIZE="5"]Should i add a preamp or not????[/size]
In one room i have PMC Gb1 floorstanding loudspeakers powered by Electrocompaniet AW60 power amp connected with Kimber XLR to Electrocompaniet DAC1. The DAC is connected cia MIT coax cable to a ZP80.
I am using the ZP80s digital volume control and THE SOUND IS VERY GOOD!!!
After this discussion above i was a little bit concerned if the sound quality is reduced in my setup. I called Electrocompaniets service department and they confirmed that a digital volume control before the dac will recalculate the signal, but still my setup after the ZP80 is very "clean". If i add a preamp, i will need another analouge cabel and this will also affect the sound they said!
[SIZE="5"]Should i add a preamp or not????[/size]
Audiophiliac,
At full volume or fixed output SONOS passes the digital stream unmodified. While it makes little sense to any analog units, the ZP80 digital connection will pass a DTS or Dolby Digital stream through to a digital input.
When you lower the volume, the digital stream must be modified. This will destroy the DTS and Dolby Digital signal, because the bit stream is modified and is no longer a valid DTS or Dolby Digital stream. With enough processor power, the streams could be decoded and rebuilt with lower volume levels, but since this is a stereo audio device, there is no point in adding that expense.
For the stereo audio signal, since we have a fixed number of bits to play with, some of the bits must be thrown away as the volume is lowered. Gradually, as the volume is lowered, the lower level information will be lost.
Which digital amplifier are you using? I'm not familiar with any digital power amplifiers amplifiers that don't have some sort of input level control.
---
In the analog world, lowering the volume is not so hard on the music. The lower level information is gradually buried in the noise as the volume level is decreased. In the digital domain, the least significant bits are simply dropped. It would be possible to ease the digital degredation by use of "dither", but I don't know if SONOS is using this method.
At full volume or fixed output SONOS passes the digital stream unmodified. While it makes little sense to any analog units, the ZP80 digital connection will pass a DTS or Dolby Digital stream through to a digital input.
When you lower the volume, the digital stream must be modified. This will destroy the DTS and Dolby Digital signal, because the bit stream is modified and is no longer a valid DTS or Dolby Digital stream. With enough processor power, the streams could be decoded and rebuilt with lower volume levels, but since this is a stereo audio device, there is no point in adding that expense.
For the stereo audio signal, since we have a fixed number of bits to play with, some of the bits must be thrown away as the volume is lowered. Gradually, as the volume is lowered, the lower level information will be lost.
Which digital amplifier are you using? I'm not familiar with any digital power amplifiers amplifiers that don't have some sort of input level control.
---
In the analog world, lowering the volume is not so hard on the music. The lower level information is gradually buried in the noise as the volume level is decreased. In the digital domain, the least significant bits are simply dropped. It would be possible to ease the digital degredation by use of "dither", but I don't know if SONOS is using this method.
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