I need a way to use Sonos without giving location.
My local network is my local network and location is irrelevant so I don’t want this intrusion in to my business. I don’t want to have to report my whereabouts to the manufacturer of a piece of hardware I buy. The concept is frankly bizarre.
+17
@bumper mentions selling in his post directly above mine.
So where did you find Sonos sells personal data?
Where did you find me saying that they did?
Read again. That isn’t the issue.
Thanks for the responses!
Thank you jgatie and Stanley_4 for directly answering the query seriously and making good points.
Thanks Rob_95 for the funniest and probably truest answer.👍
Yes I do realise that we live in surveillance capitalism society but it doesn’t mean I have to like it or accept it and I do what I can to avoid the worst of it.
But whereas there is a built in inevitability about location tracking for services like mobile phones and wi-fi, what is that for a set of speakers? What legitimate reason do Sonos have for needing to know your location?
Default local radio stations is a lame reason (it’s the worldwide web) and should never be mandatory.
So we’re left with geo-location eligibility for services - as jgatiie points out. But what ‘services’?
The only ‘service’ I want from speakers is to play the content fed to them. The services that provide that content are not Sonos. They are separate companies with whom I have sub of the day ukseparate contracts. So what Sonos services are we talking about here and why would anything Sonos does be geo-location dependent?
I have a Naim hi fi system with lovely Sonus Faber speakers.. That system plays content I feed to it in various ways. Vinyl, CD, I can even stream to it from any of my devices. Does that system want or need my location? Of course not.
Naim make high quality hi fi and Sonus Faber make high quality speakers. That’s it. What are Sonos doing exactly?
Sonos, like many tech companies, likely collects location data for various reasons, including marketing, product improvement, and potentially even regulatory compliance. While it may not seem immediately necessary for a speaker system, companies often gather data to tailor experiences or ensure they're meeting regional legal requirements. However, transparency and user control over such data collection practices are essential for maintaining trust and ensuring users feel comfortable with their devices.
In contrast, Naim's focus may be primarily on delivering exceptional audio quality and user experience without the need for extensive data collection. Each company operates with its own approach and priorities, and while Sonos may emphasize services or features that benefit from location data, Naim's focus appears to be on delivering premium audio experiences without relying on such information.
+13
Share is being used here as a synonym for sell. Depending on where you live, sonos’s use of share would meet the legal definition of sell. This is in the privacy policy.
I get that the legal definitions can vary, but I think most normal people see a big difference between selling and sharing. As well, there is a difference between specific user identified data, annoymous data, and data that’s been summarized into a statistic. For example, I don’t personally see much issue with letting an advertiser know that that particular Sonos radio station averages 1000 users a day for 1 hour in the general NYC area. I would have a problem if Sonos were to sell (for cash) my name, address, and purchase history to a 3rd party marketing company.
This is one of those topics where communication is pretty poor and people really have no idea what specifically you’re talking about when someone says Company X is selling your data. The language is vague, perhaps purposely, and people are forced to make blind assumptions rather than actually know what’s going on.
I linked a picture above where it makes it clearer what Sonos is selling and sharing. Some of this information wouldn’t be limited to Sonos Radio users.
I would have a problem if Sonos were to sell (for cash) my name, address, and purchase history to a 3rd party marketing company.
I don’t think they sell your purchase history, that’s not in the privacy policy. But they do sell a number of other identifiable information, like maybe not your address, but perhaps your precise location :) Kind of like what OP is concerned about :)))
Share is being used here as a synonym for sell. Depending on where you live, sonos’s use of share would meet the legal definition of sell. This is in the privacy policy.
I get that the legal definitions can vary, but I think most normal people see a big difference between selling and sharing. As well, there is a difference between specific user identified data, annoymous data, and data that’s been summarized into a statistic. For example, I don’t personally see much issue with letting an advertiser know that that particular Sonos radio station averages 1000 users a day for 1 hour in the general NYC area. I would have a problem if Sonos were to sell (for cash) my name, address, and purchase history to a 3rd party marketing company.
This is one of those topics where communication is pretty poor and people really have no idea what specifically you’re talking about when someone says Company X is selling your data. The language is vague, perhaps purposely, and people are forced to make blind assumptions rather than actually know what’s going on.
+13
So where did you find Sonos sells personal data?
It’s in the privacy policy. Advertisers on Sonos Radio. They will sell your location as well as identifying information.
Advertising Partners
If you decide to use Sonos Radio, we will share a subset of your information with third party advertising companies to present, via Sonos Products, interest-based ads for features, products, and services that might be of interest to you. Specifically, we share the following information with our advertising partners: location, language, and genre of the station you are currently listening to (which is not based on your overall listening history). We will share information with advertisers, which describes the overall listening audience in general. We may also share limited location information and identifiers (i.e. an IP address) with some of our third party radio content partners who may run ads on their stations.
That’s not exactly selling your user data, since they aren’t directly selling it, but I can see where some would not want that. Not a big issue though as you can avoid that just by not using Sonos radio.
Share is being used here as a synonym for sell. Depending on where you live, sonos’s use of share would meet the legal definition of sell. Share sounds better right? This is in the privacy policy.
Edited to add: I can’t link to an example directly but here’s a screen capture where they say they are selling the data.
So where did you find Sonos sells personal data?
It’s in the privacy policy. Advertisers on Sonos Radio. They will sell your location as well as identifying information.
Advertising Partners
If you decide to use Sonos Radio, we will share a subset of your information with third party advertising companies to present, via Sonos Products, interest-based ads for features, products, and services that might be of interest to you. Specifically, we share the following information with our advertising partners: location, language, and genre of the station you are currently listening to (which is not based on your overall listening history). We will share information with advertisers, which describes the overall listening audience in general. We may also share limited location information and identifiers (i.e. an IP address) with some of our third party radio content partners who may run ads on their stations.
That’s not exactly selling your user data, since they aren’t directly selling it, but I can see where some would not want that. Not a big issue though as you can avoid that just by not using Sonos radio.
+13
It isn’t controversial.
It isn’t nefarious stuff, the policy is easy to understand. Sonos aren’t trying to hide anything.
But at around the same time they launched Sonos Radio and started selling user data to third parties.
Can you provide some evidence for this claim?
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy#legal-2023-privacy-share-info-container
Moving forward I think it’s safe to assume that they will increase efforts to monetize users, through selling additional data or software subscriptions etc. If this bothers you now, likely will get worse for you. You can block a lot (most? all?) of the Sonos telemetry by blocking certain urls and domains, so you don’t have to willing give up all your data. But if this type of thing bothers you, make the choice to return it.
Yes, Sonos radio is a subscription service, except where it’s ad based. Every streaming service is subscription or ad based, except in the rare case where they are supported by user donations. I don’t see why this is controversial. Will Sonos offer other subscription model sources of income? Quite possibly. I can’t imagine Sonos would ever charge a fee for a feature or service they currently provide without an additional charge.
+13
So where did you find Sonos sells personal data?
It’s in the privacy policy. Advertisers on Sonos Radio. They will sell your location as well as identifying information.
+17
So where did you find Sonos sells personal data?
+13
This is a fundamental question of freedom and control. Of personal sovereignty. Any concession to surveillance capitalism by any of us should be on a strictly necessary basis only.
It’s not a question of freedom or control, it’s just about choice. You don’t have to use Sonos.
Just as an FYI, you didn’t use to have to provide your location when setting up a speaker, Sonos allowed you to skip this and still set it up. This was about 4 years ago. You could set your country and postal code (ie not precise location) in your user profile and music services would be available through that, you didn’t have to give precise location in the app. But at around the same time they launched Sonos Radio and started selling user data to third parties. Moving forward I think it’s safe to assume that they will increase efforts to monetize users, through selling additional data or software subscriptions etc. If this bothers you now, likely will get worse for you. You can block a lot (most? all?) of the Sonos telemetry by blocking certain urls and domains, so you don’t have to willing give up all your data. But if this type of thing bothers you, make the choice to return it.
So why buy a connected device?
Connected to what?
I bought a good quality speaker for my TV connected by optical input and capable of being a node on my local network across which I can stream music it to from compatible music services and/or networks to drives.
How does that work?
eg I use Alexa - but I don’t tell it to play on Sonos I tell it to play from Spotify - or maybe it knows now and I don’t have to actually say that and it plays from Spotify automatically via wifi. The point is I understand that Spotify has to work with Alexa and also with Sonos. My understanding is that in that chain Sonos has the contract and technical connection with Sonos not Amazon and Alexa. Spotify also has the contract and technical connection with Alexa. So a contract between Amazon and Sonos is not necessary because Sonos deals with the music services not the voice assistant services.
If you use an Alexa voice command to stream Spotify on a Sonos device, then Spotify has to have some sort of agreement with Amazon, Amazon has to have an agreement with Sonos, and Sonos has to have an agreement with Spotify. When playing this method, Amazon is just passing the command to play music on to Sonos, it’s not actually involved in the playback. This is unlike using airplay or bluetooth, where your phone is doing the playback and passing the audio on to a separate speaker.
Also, as I said before, the local government will also have licenses and regulations that need to be met. In the US, for example, wifi devices and microphones have to met FCC requirements. In some places, this may be an easy task, but Sonos would still have to do the work to be in compliance.
My soundbar (which I bought primarily for my TV display which has no speakers) doesn’t have Bluetooth (I was told by Sonos that they would ‘never’ add bluetooth because of the sound quality compared to wi fi) but I understand that with Bluetooth the connection is different.
I can’t pay just any old content from my Macbook laptop via wifi through my Sonos soundbar - it has to be from a music service Sonos recognises or from my iTunes music library (so at least I can play music I have created that way).
This is not true. You can play music files from a shared drive on a computer or NAS. Certain file types would not be supported of course. Alternatively, you could use airplay to send audio from your mackbook to your Sonos. Sonos speakers can also play music services directly. The Sonos app is just a controller.
Now if I had bluetooth I guess I could tell Siri to play a track from my music library - but again why would Sonos need a contract with Apple re Siri?
But your Sonos product isn’t bluetooth so it’s not relevant. As well, as was stated earlier, Sonos is asking for your location so that it can help setup any service that it can in your location. It’s not a matter of you picking a service you want, say you only want to use airplay, then asking your location to see if you can legally use airplay at your location.
Bluetooth works as a completely agnostic connection unlike the wifi connection. Meaning it will simply relay anything the computer is playing - no contracts required.
Then why didn’t you just get a ‘dumb’ bluetooth speaker?
I always wished my soundbar did have Bluetooth then I could play laptop audio - especially You Tube, wirelessly. I can’t do that right now. Instead I connect to my hi-fi system for that.
Your macbook has airplay, so you could use that. But again, if you wanted a speaker with bluetooth, why did you buy a speaker that doesn’t have bluetooth? This is like buying a truck and complaining that it doesn’t have a trunk.
+17
So why buy a connected device?
You mean this?
“We may also share limited location information (i.e. an IP address and anonymised ID) with some of our third-party radio content partners who may run ads on their stations.”
I don’t want advertisers to get my IP address thanks.
And they can link that to an identity in other ways.
But the key point is I do not trust any of these companies with my personal information - and for good reason.
Tech companies have time and time again shown a complete disregard for fundamental privacy rights no matter their stated policies or the content of their PR on the subject.
The laws are there but are not strong enough and those that are there are not enforced rigorously enough nor carry a severe enough penalty to actually deter.
This is a fundamental question of freedom and control. Of personal sovereignty. Any concession to surveillance capitalism by any of us should be on a strictly necessary basis only.
How does that work?
eg I use Alexa - but I don’t tell it to play on Sonos I tell it to play from Spotify - or maybe it knows now and I don’t have to actually say that and it plays from Spotify automatically via wifi. The point is I understand that Spotify has to work with Alexa and also with Sonos. My understanding is that in that chain Sonos has the contract and technical connection with Sonos not Amazon and Alexa. Spotify also has the contract and technical connection with Alexa. So a contract between Amazon and Sonos is not necessary because Sonos deals with the music services not the voice assistant services.
My soundbar (which I bought primarily for my TV display which has no speakers) doesn’t have Bluetooth (I was told by Sonos that they would ‘never’ add bluetooth because of the sound quality compared to wi fi) but I understand that with Bluetooth the connection is different.
I can’t pay just any old content from my Macbook laptop via wifi through my Sonos soundbar - it has to be from a music service Sonos recognises or from my iTunes music library (so at least I can play music I have created that way).
Now if I had bluetooth I guess I could tell Siri to play a track from my music library - but again why would Sonos need a contract with Apple re Siri?
Bluetooth works as a completely agnostic connection unlike the wifi connection. Meaning it will simply relay anything the computer is playing - no contracts required.
I always wished my soundbar did have Bluetooth then I could play laptop audio - especially You Tube, wirelessly. I can’t do that right now. Instead I connect to my hi-fi system for that.
Worth noting that in addition to location being necessary for determining what music service are available in your location, it’s also need for voice services. Sonos is not licensed for all three voice assistants they offer in every location in the world. That license could be the agreements with Amazon or Google or with the local government.
+23
But will it still be able to connect to your speaker using the network it already knows about?
Mine doesn’t do Bluetooth but same for Bluetooth?
Yes, regular network is covered by the “Local Network” privilege which is essential for Sonos. There is also a special “network broadcast” privilege that apps like Sonos and mine require, which requires special permission from Apple. The user does not see this one, but it is necessary to find local devices on the network.
If Bluetooth is disabled then the app cannot make any Bluetooth calls. Sonos use this during setup for newer devices, and for the portable speakers for playback of course.
But will it still be able to connect to your speaker using the network it already knows about?
Mine doesn’t do Bluetooth but same for Bluetooth?
+23
So turning on location at setup is simply a mechanism to give permission (rather than eg a tickbox saying ‘I accept that the Sonos app will scan for Bluetooth and wi-fi and that those operations will enable my location to be discovered)?
So of course turning off location after setup doesn’t prevent scanning, meaning, again, location is not actually needed for the service to work.
You misunderstand: the permission is given only for as long as the option is enabled, so once you have set it up, flip the switch and the permission is gone: the app cannot use then use Bluetooth or wifi scan. (And by wifi scan I mean search for other wifi networks - obviously the app wont work without access to the network the phone is connected to).
(This is true for iOS, no clue about Android: Google obviously have a vested interest in gathering as much data as they can about you).
In their Privacy Statement, Sonos says:
How We May Share Personal Information
Sonos does not and will not sell personal information about our customers.
There are of course some caveats, but the “need” to obtain some location data is explained in that Statement.
At this point our data is simply a resource that can be sold or rented. Everyone attempts to collect as much as possible. Search engines share lots of data. Amazon collects and shares lots of data. If you search for a product, then email a link to a friend, Amazon tags that link with your search. If your friend shares the link, the chain continues. I notice that Office emails that include links, have long chains of referrals attached to those links. Browsers and email clients tend to hide these chains.
Yes I operate in a similar way.
The conveniences you mention could be achieved by allowing you to simply select your location from a list.
Again, tracking your actual location isn’t necessary for that.
So turning on location at setup is simply a mechanism to give permission (rather than eg a tickbox saying ‘I accept that the Sonos app will scan for Bluetooth and wi-fi and that those operations will enable my location to be discovered)?
So of course turning off location after setup doesn’t prevent scanning, meaning, again, location is not actually needed for the service to work.
But did they do it that way because it’s easier than a tickbox or another reason - like they want to see and use your location anyway?
And presumably a Google or Microsoft install would require the same.
So Apple, Google, Microsoft or Sonos don’t actually need to know your location - it’s only there if they happen to want to look for it.
But do they? They should guarantee not to.
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