Yet another Upgrade nightmare



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These days I try and stay away from the 'update broke my Sonos' posts, which are almost always due to IP conflicts. However in this case I'm not so sure since, as noted, the HH6 has a tendency to hang onto MAC-IP mappings by default.

Full disclosure. I don't ask much of my HH6, since it can sometimes struggle with a lot of wireless clients. It only hosts a small Sonos household. Most of my devices are on a secondary subnet, behind a Netgear router and with a standalone DHCP server.

I'd suggest a diagnostic is submitted and Sonos Support consulted to see if they can spot something. With the reduction in the amount of diagnostic data now accessible to the home user this seems like the best course.
@Sullydks, There was a suggestion in your first post that you might, at some stage, have attempted to use Sonos in WiFi ('Standard') mode, rather than with a wired component. If that's the case, and you've not removed the stored WiFi credentials from the system since then, I suggest you do so immediately. Leaving them in the system can lead to instability.
@sullydks. There is much I would agree with in your most recent post, although I still think you are mistaken in thinking that Sonos can do anything to prevent this. Let's agree to differ on that.

Leaving aside the question of whether it is actually likely to be IP addresses in this case, you said you could not find how to reserve them in the HH6. I have a HH6. Did you find the place for every device where you can choose 'Always use this IP address'? Are you saying this would not work? If so, in what sense?
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Sonos might be able to add a bit more health monitoring to SonosNet to detect and fix IP issues but the more they add the less other features they can add and the more traffic Sonos will be pushing over the network. I'd like to see it a bit more robust if it can be done without too much impact.
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@Sullydks, There was a suggestion in your first post that you might, at some stage, have attempted to use Sonos in WiFi ('Standard') mode, rather than with a wired component. If that's the case, and you've not removed the stored WiFi credentials from the system since then, I suggest you do so immediately. Leaving them in the system can lead to instability.

I need to research how to check this. Thx.

Having just applied the latest update. And once again reset the router multiple times to get so is working again and still have a wired ZP dropping out (not able to play yet visible) and the app now randomly failing to connect at all. Somethings up.
UPDATE---- I do now have BOOST but prior to that did try 'standard' for a while. But have checked and that's all cleared.
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@sullydks. There is much I would agree with in your most recent post, although I still think you are mistaken in thinking that Sonos can do anything to prevent this. Let's agree to differ on that.

Leaving aside the question of whether it is actually likely to be IP addresses in this case, you said you could not find how to reserve them in the HH6. I have a HH6. Did you find the place for every device where you can choose 'Always use this IP address'? Are you saying this would not work? If so, in what sense?


Sorry didn’t see this until now.
I can choose “always use” but I cannot seem to decide the ip address. Will review again. Now that it’s all failing again after yesterday’s upgrade.
Bluesound is getting closer and closer.

Sorry didn’t see this until now.
I can choose “always use” but I cannot seem to decide the ip address. Will review again. Now that it’s all failing again after yesterday’s upgrade.
Bluesound is getting closer and closer.


Bluesound is not going to cure your underlying network problems, and may even be worse because it has no mesh option like Sonosnet.
And just think how annoyed one would be to dump all one's Sonos kit and shell out on an expensive Bluesound replacement, only to be beset with the same network issues. (Sorry, I do rather lose sympathy when the "... or the bunny gets it" threats start to appear.)

A month ago I said
I'd suggest a diagnostic is submitted and Sonos Support consulted to see if they can spot something. With the reduction in the amount of diagnostic data now accessible to the home user this seems like the best course.
Did this actually happen?
And just think how annoyed one would be to dump all one's Sonos kit and shell out on an expensive Bluesound replacement, only to be beset with the same network issues. (Sorry, I do rather lose sympathy when the "... or the bunny gets it" threats start to appear.)


Especially when the bunny never, ever gets it.


A month ago I said
I'd suggest a diagnostic is submitted and Sonos Support consulted to see if they can spot something. With the reduction in the amount of diagnostic data now accessible to the home user this seems like the best course.
Did this actually happen?


Of course not. :8
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Sorry didn’t see this until now.
I can choose “always use” but I cannot seem to decide the ip address. Will review again. Now that it’s all failing again after yesterday’s upgrade.
Bluesound is getting closer and closer.


Bluesound is not going to cure your underlying network problems, and may even be worse because it has no mesh option like Sonosnet.


I’ve had no network problems for many years. I’ve got no network problem with any other device. Whilst Sonos is failing all other devices are connected and working no problem. At same moment so so is failing.
No other device has IP issues. Smart TV streaming- Fine. PlayStation online gaming - Fine. NAS network file transfer - all good. Stream music or video to any device - outside of Sonos - all good. Link smart TV to NAS to stream videos - all fine.
Taking them all offline doesn’t fix Sonos either.

I’m working on static IP’s but the BT HH doesn’t make that easy. In fact it seems to ignore the IP changes I make. Then makes “static” those devices I’ve NOT changed. And I cannot now undo them. It won’t let me change back.
Factory reset is looming.
Now I know why ratty says it is best to stay out of these threads. :8
Don't do a factory reset, it really won't solve anything.

I'm not in the UK, so I don't have any particular knowledge to assist in the BT HH issue.

Sonos is somewhat different in the way that they do software upgrades, by a soft reboot of the software which causes a speaker to go out and get a new IP address. If the router is susceptible to losing track of what it's assigned (my Netgear seemed to, several years/firmware revisions ago), then you can end up in this situation. And it's ultimately not Sonos' responsibility, it's just that the way they do stuff, so it tends to get exposed more often by your Sonos devices. Your other devices (most of them, I can't speak for every device out there) tend not to do this sort of soft boot process where they request new IP addresses, so you wouldn't see that sort of behaviour.

Sometimes it's hard, at least for me, to build an appropriate mental diagram of all of the moving parts in order to come up with the 100% correct answer. I trust jgatie and ratty implicitly. Their extensive knowledge should be able to help you get through this situation, all that is needed is a little patience.
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And just think how annoyed one would be to dump all one's Sonos kit and shell out on an expensive Bluesound replacement, only to be beset with the same network issues. (Sorry, I do rather lose sympathy when the "... or the bunny gets it" threats start to appear.)


Especially when the bunny never, ever gets it.


A month ago I said
I'd suggest a diagnostic is submitted and Sonos Support consulted to see if they can spot something. With the reduction in the amount of diagnostic data now accessible to the home user this seems like the best course.
Did this actually happen?


Of course not. :8



I'm genuinely grateful for your support and guidance from all, and no I didnt follow up on that specific suggestion Ratty..
I've tried SONOS support in the past ..its tediously, slow, they run out of suggestions early, and even refer us back to the "community". It's also unfeasible weekends, when this usually occurs, and all you want is to get the music playing and relax and then really dont have focus or time for it after work on Monday etc etc...

Also, now that its all up and running again.. I've got no problem to open or submit !!

It was a good 3 or 4 real time hours to fix and reset everything. I don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
I still cannot find any IP conflicts, or any network errors at all that explain why this occurs and why ONLY ever after an upgrade is applied. But a factory reset of everything worked, PLUS all devices in the house rebooted, and all is good again. Yep.. it smacks of a network issue. I get that.. but where and why only after an upgrade is applied ?

I apologise that the ONLY common denominator I've been able to find that causes these issues has been the application of a Sonos upgrade. This has occurred multiple times in last 18 months.
I'll try to stop criticising SONOS from now on, I've been a massive front line fan of theirs for so long and the criticism is born out of frustration and sadness at how they've changed.

I also apologise for honestly reporting that everything in my networks is working great before the upgrade. This was simply factual, Jgatie, Apologies if you saw it otherwise.

I remain bothered that we now have to be router and network experts to run a SONOS system. when every other technology I use is getting easier to use and configure.

And as for "the bunny gets it" reference. Not really a threat. As if a threat from me to SONOS means squat to them.
I'm not threatening. I'm simply stating what I am considering as an alternative and as I've also stated in the past, it will likely take some years for me to move over to an alternative.
But then I waited 20+ years for SONOS to arrive....
No sympathy wanted, asked for nor expected.

But despite the slight ridiculing, which i didn't expect here, I still genuinely appreciate the advice, guidance from all and I've tried almost all of the suggestions.

Case CLOSED. SOLUTION NONE.
PENDING NEXT TIME.
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Don't do a factory reset, it really won't solve anything.

I'm not in the UK, so I don't have any particular knowledge to assist in the BT HH issue.

Sonos is somewhat different in the way that they do software upgrades, by a soft reboot of the software which causes a speaker to go out and get a new IP address. If the router is susceptible to losing track of what it's assigned (my Netgear seemed to, several years/firmware revisions ago), then you can end up in this situation. And it's ultimately not Sonos' responsibility, it's just that the way they do stuff, so it tends to get exposed more often by your Sonos devices. Your other devices (most of them, I can't speak for every device out there) tend not to do this sort of soft boot process where they request new IP addresses, so you wouldn't see that sort of behaviour.

Sometimes it's hard, at least for me, to build an appropriate mental diagram of all of the moving parts in order to come up with the 100% correct answer. I trust jgatie and ratty implicitly. Their extensive knowledge should be able to help you get through this situation, all that is needed is a little patience.


THANK YOU
Useful.
Also Agree with your last para.
You will never be able to find an IP conflict without sophisticated network tools. By their nature, they are compromising the very network you are using to find them. The router receives packets from both, not knowing they are not the same device. When those packets overlap or conflict (like when using a multi-room music system dependent on multiple networked units all talking to the same central app), you lose connections, rooms disappear, and/or streaming stops.

As to "where and why only after an upgrade is applied ?" An upgrade reboots each Sonos unit. A reboot causes a request for a new IP. If the router is in a wonky state and there are orphaned IPs out on the network, then each Sonos unit could be issued an IP that is still in use by another device. Queue the sporadic connection/streaming/grouping problems.

As for being a networking expert, reserving IP addresses is not quite as easy as changing a WiFi password, but it is not that much more difficult. The hardest part is usually getting into you router setup, and getting the MAC addresses from the units (Hint: They are on the bottom label, or in Settings->About My Sonos System, it is the Serial Number minus the last two letters/digits).

Lastly, I know ISP issued routers/modems can be a pain, are often not up to par performance-wise, and frequently lock the user out of most setup features. This is why I and put my own router downstream from the ISP unit.
As to the fact that you can't find any IP conflicts, that's not unusual. They don't actually 'show up' in any available report that I've ever seen on a router's DHCP report page. Those are snapshots of a moment in time, and none of the ones I've ever seen include anything like "and this IP address has been occupied by these two devices over the last hour". Instead, they just say "this IP address is currently connected to this device". No other indicator.

Someone else around here suggested another tool, which I didn't write down and investigate, which might make that kind of thing more evident to a user. I would suggest that the router's software should provide that without me figuring out some other random way....alas, I've not made any headway on my complaints to the router companies at large.

And honestly, it's a pretty small issue, which seems to be, at least in my experience, mostly exposed by Sonos, which is less tolerant of that situation than almost any other device, due to the nature of music streaming, and the fact that they don't have a ton of memory on the speakers to be caching data in advance to cover for lapses.

I'm happy you're back up and working. I'd still recommend for your long term happiness that you figure out how to assign those reserved IP addresses, and do it for all of your equipment that connects to your router, not just your Sonos. It's a "good" thing 🙂
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I just skimmed over this after a couple days away, only a bit to add.

When you are looking at IPO address issues you need to not only look at your network and router states during the process but at the internal IP states of the Sonos gear. Making this even harder you don't have good access to your Sonos innards during an update/reboot process and all the Sonos gear is going to be rebooting and fetching/updating IP addresses at close but random times.

Like pretty much all the other folks I worked at this for a while trying to see if I could make headway in identifying the problem so I could submit a report to Sonos and hopefully get it queued up for fixing. What I suspect is that the Sonos gear is going down, rebooting, reestablishing the SonosNet and asking for and getting DHCP IP addresses. When the addresses Sonos is using don't match what ir in told to use things get odd.

Since I was failing, running out of time and getting frustrated I did the static/reserved IP assignment and the update problem has not happened again. In addition some of the controller oddness when coming back from an overnight sleep has gone away.

It wouldn't hurt Sonos to put up a FAQ on setting the static/reserved IP addresses for the more common gear and accepting further input to add to it from users of gear they don't have access to.