Sky Q and Sonos problems

  • 23 January 2021
  • 43 replies
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43 replies

ratty

If, as appears to be the case, the SkyQ mesh is not correctly forwarding a certain type of local network traffic it’s not for Sonos to fix. They’re merely following industry standards (to be technical, it’s the Simple Service Discovery Protocol). 

I’m surprised there isn’t an option to disable the hotspots without affecting the backhaul connection for the Sky Mini itself.

W
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I can see that’s one possibility, but why do other application/device interactions work ok.  

I am sure that Sky will blame Sonos, indeed could it be that it is Sonos that’s not interpreting standards correctly.  

This is all the sort of thing that drives consumers mad.

W
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It seems that for some reason, the access points (Sky Q and Sky mini) are not allowing the phone to speak to the network in the same way it does when the router is the access point. "

I have seen issues on these forums where SSDP issues cause interference and excessive Wifi slow down once SkyQ installed - fortunatly (fingers crossed) this isn't my problem, but I am obviously concerned that there might be an issue like this waiting to bite me if I don't understand the root cause.

The Iphone is on the network, the Sonos system is on the network - I can see both from the sky modem/router/hub.  I can use the App from devices connected to the router/hub (IMac is cabled, Iphone wifi).  So there is a problem with some kind of "handshake".  

As a consumer I don't know enough to understand if this is something Sky is not passing to the App or if it is something the App is not reading correctly from the Sky broadcast - or put another way is it Sky’s fault or Sonos's fault!  

Given that Sky do obviously have some issues with SSDP it is tempting to see it as their fault.  As a consumer I do need one of the suppliers to “own” the problem - rather than pointing the finger at the other supplier and leaving me stuck in the middle.  I guess I need to read up a bit about SSDP.

Thanks for helping me get to this point

W
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A Sonos controller app remembers next to nothing about your system. When it wakes up, or the mobile is reconnected, the controller needs to ‘discover’ the players afresh. It does this by essentially yelling “is there anyone out there?” as a local subnet broadcast. Everything on the network hears this, but only the Sonos devices respond in a form that the controller will understand. 

A problem arises if, for whatever reason, the discovery broadcast from the mobile is not passed on by the network equipment. Sometimes this is because the equipment vendor considers broadcasts to be ‘insecure’, sometimes it’s because a configuration option needs tweaking to allow them, and sometimes it’s simply down to a coding error.

 

I have spoken via chat to Sonos who confirmed that there is a fundamental incompatibility of Sonos with mesh networks and that it is not limited to Sky. 

They said Sonos uses the main router to communicate between phone and speakers and when a new BSSID is detected on the controller, speakers are trying to follow it to join, but they fail, due to different BSSID.  This a SONOS problem!

They said the - Main solution in these cases is split of band into 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz, to have them into 2 different networks, with different SSID's. Setting the Sonos on 2.4 Ghz as a main network and disabling 2.4Ghz band on the Sky Q box, which isolates Sonos on 2.4 Ghz and prevents interferences with BSSID broadcasted by the Sky Q Box.

So Sonos are telling me that I need to downgrade the rest of my system to accommodate deficiencies in the Sonos design. They tried to tell me it wasn’t a down grade. However he then admitted that the difference between the 2 bands is : 2.4Ghz, goes for longer distance while being a little bit slower, 5Ghz works at very high speeds, but on short range. In my view turning one frequency off diminishes my service. 

Fundamentally consumer products should not require you to mess around with such router settings.

I have made a considerable investment in Sonos products in the past and I am disappointed. I am now left wondering if other speakers suffer from the same limitations with mesh networks and whether Sonos have a project to rectify this shortcoming.  (I asked - they wouldn’t tell me)

Consumers need Sonos to take ownership of this issue, and from my perspective at the moment Sonos needs to fix this before I would ever recommend Sonos to another person.

ratty

They said Sonos uses the main router to communicate between phone and speakers and when a new BSSID is detected on the controller, speakers are trying to follow it to join, but they fail, due to different BSSID.  

Sorry, but this comment from Support makes zero sense. A controller can be on any segment of the subnet -- wired, 2.4G, 5G, any BSSID -- and so long as discovery broadcasts are correctly forwarded by the network it will find the players.

Unfortunately some routers don’t do this, and in those circumstances a mobile on a different segment may have trouble. The classic example is a router which doesn’t forward broadcasts between 5G and 2.4G when Sonos is in WiFi/”wireless” mode on the 2.4G.

 

W
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I agree it doesn’t make sense, but it does agree with my experience.   He said that the speaker is routed via the main router by way of Sonosnet and only knows about SSID.  The Iphone controller app is connected on a different part of the network with a different 

I quote from the transcription “That is because Sonos uses the main router to communicate between phone and speakers and when a new BSSID is detected on the controller, speakers are trying to follow it to join, but they fail, due to different BSSID”

and “

Within access points, data communication is not always perfect and the data path costs more time than usual. With the increased number networks or MAC addresses, Sonos is trying to connect to the one that you used to set it up and it basically follows the lead of that one. “

It seems that Sonos are trying to overcome potential time lags

F

Following this with interest, as this last week - seemingly out of the blue, having had Sky Q since June - my Play 5 (gen 2) disappeared, and will not reconnect, and today my Play 1 has joined it after a two hours phone troubleshoot with Sonos support. 
 

I’ve tried a full system re-install (inc factory reset of both Sonos devices), changing my router settings where I could, and trying to connect the devices via Ethernet (worked for a bit but then failed to connect to the WiFi).

 

really hoping Sonos can provide a fix for this.

B

try changing the wifi channels on the on the sky q box, it usually defaults to the same as the main router.  or what you are using for wifi.  I am using with sky q and tp link wifi mesh system and no problems.  I don’t have sky broadband, am on bt.

Xander P
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Hi all, thanks for your discussion surrounding this issue!

As has been mentioned, SkyQ systems - when in use with a Sky router - can have some trouble passing certain types of network traffic through, specifically the kind that allows your app to find the system - causing you to only see Sonos speakers connected to the same SkyQ box as your phone/tablet, or being unable to connect at all.
Given that this happens due to a failure on the mesh WiFi created by SkyQ there's not a lot we can do to prevent this issue from developing, however there are ways to work around the issue.

The following only applies when you have both SkyQ and a Sky router;

What we can do to work around the issue is make some changes to the network setup, such that you can force Sonos and your phone/tablet to connect to the main routers WiFi, and not the WiFi provided by the SkyQ boxes.

The first step here is to "split" the network in to separate 2.4 and 5GHz wireless networks by accessing the router settings - you can find some steps on making this change here.


I would recommend leaving the 2.4GHz wireless name the same, and simply add "-5" to the 5GHz wireless name.

After splitting the network, the next step is to disable the 2.4GHz radio on each SkyQ box via the engineers menu - you can find out how to do this here.

When finished;

-Sonos will be configured for the 2.4GHz wireless only.
-SkyQ boxes will broadcast 5GHz only
-Main router will broadcast both 2.4GHz and 5GHz
-When connected to the 2.4GHz, your phone/tablet will always be connected via the routers WiFi.

This should allow you to consistently connect to and control all Sonos devices within the home, as we are no longer relying on the SkyQ boxes to pass through discovery messages.

F

Thanks for this Xander - it looks really helpful. I’ll give it a go this week and report back!

M

I’ve just bought a Roam, my first Sonos product, and am having issues with playing a steady stream from my iPhone or iPad via Airplay. Sometimes it works fine,  more often it doesn’t with the music cutting in and out rapidly. I have a Sky router and a Q box which could be the source of my problems. I’ve tried splitting the 2.4 and 5gig networks - didn’t work. I turned off 2.4G Wi-Fi on sky q box, that didn’t work either. Turning both wifi networks off on the Sky Q box is not an option as router is upstairs so can’t go the Ethernet route.

A reboot of the router sometimes works but I don’t want to do that every time I want to airplay some music. 
A lot of the technical detail in this thread goes way over my head, are there any other solutions? 
If any Sonos staff are tuning in you can check out diagnostic 1338332803

 

F

An update: it worked for my Play:1 but my Play:5 STILL won’t work or connect, via ethernet OR wifi. 

W
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I have installed gigabit switch to replace my 10/100 device as proposed by Mad+sweeney on Sky community post and echoed here by Johnn_1 and everything is now working.

I hope this works for everyone

Airgetlam

That’s interesting. There must be something slightly different about the software running on that device, since most (all?) Sonos devices have a 10/100 ethernet port, not a gigabit port. 

Bruce
T

I moved from a single BT router with extenders to Sky Q. Never had any problems until the switch. Then it was a nightmare both to get all Sonos products connected (Beams, Amps, Subs, Playbars etc). Since then I get similar issues to described with products dropping in and out based on where I am in the house, which Sonos products are connected to which  SkyQ routers at the time (there is one Sky main box and 2 mini boxes) and which router my I-phone Sonos App is connected to. As other have mentioned it is an ongoing issue based on how Sky Q mesh wifi network operates vs Sonos.

I think I may have found a solution which while not foolproof seems to have worked on my system. I basically bought a Sonos Boost. Initially when I connected it to the main Sky router via Ethernet I had no luck - would not connect.

However I then reset it and instead connected it via Ethernet to one of the wirelessly connected Sky mini boxes in another part of the house and it magically worked. Since then all Sonos products are reliably connected via the Boost.  I’m hoping that now all product are connected using the Sonos mesh network and not Sky wifi it will remain stable. Fingers crossed:

J

This post only applies to people with the issue here whom use both Sky’s broadband and Sky Q based whole home wifi and have put their own 3rd party equipment between any Sky equipment.

It presents what may turn out to be a better fix than suggested by Sonos as it does not involve disabling parts of the Sky Q service through the engineer menu and loosing out on this.

 

tl;dr - Do not connect Sky Q equipment together with 3rd party fast (10/100) ethernet switches or powerline adapters that have only fast ports and expect it not to break Sonos!

 

Sky do not recommend connecting anything (including switches) between their boxes:

https://www.sky.com/help/diagnostics/sky-q-permanent-connectivity/are-you-using-powerline-equipment

 

If you must then then do it with any of these:

  • A wire (no switch).
  • A gigabit switch.
  • A pair of powerline adapters with gigabit ports.

Avoid:

  • Fast ethernet switch
  • Any powerline adapter with only a fast ethernet port.

 

What’s gigabit got to do with anything?

  • Devices with fast ports often do not support adding an extra 14 bytes of data on the wired network between Sky Q boxes necessary to tunnel large Sonos responses about what a speaker is capable of.
  • Devices with gigabit ports usually do.

It doesn’t really have anything to do with the speed of the interface per se, just that Sky equipment requires the extra headroom often afforded by Gigabit devices to work 100% correctly and not break things like Sonos.  I can explain in glorious detail if necessary.

S
Userlevel 2

I have had the same issues. It’s easy to solve…..

 

With your Sky Q remote scroll down to settings and then press 001 select. 
 

Go to network, and turn off both 2.4 and 5 gig networks. This is assuming you can connect your Q box with an Ethernet cable to the router. 
 

Your Sonos will work perfectly after. 

W
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Also covered here by Mad+Sweeny - I haven’t tested it yet, but I’m hopeful

 

https://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Sky-Q/SkyQ-and-Sonos-interfering-with-each-other/m-p/3687726/emcs_t/S2h8ZW1haWx8bWVudGlvbl9zdWJzY3JpcHRpb258S09HRUJaQkpWVzJSfDM2ODc3MjZ8QVRfTUVOVElPTlN8aEs

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