We need Audiophile Edition version of Port

Show first post

108 replies

K

 

 Well I pretty much decided that for my mid fifties ears, I am good with what I was getting from my connect.

Congratulations on getting to where most of us get to by that age! And I don't think that we get there only because of impaired hearing.

M

This is a great subject and is very open ended, especially if you are trying to take queues from an “audiophile” perspective. First let me say that while I do consider myself a gear head, I am totally a music lover from birth. My wife really dislikes the term Audiophile as it is pretentious and over used, so I do not use it describing myself as I love music first and listening platforms second.
 

Back in 2014 I started into the world of streaming and pretty much only used AirPlay to a home theater receiver or tv. When I discovered Sonos, I went all in and bought several Sonos speakers & components . I found it was pretty much stupid proof from set up to everyday use. I also decided to run a connect through a lower mid entry Dac into my McIntosh system. Personally I found the sound to be quite good, even streaming subscription Pandora as a main source for radio like experience, and Spotify for playing and discovering music. 
 

As time has moved forward and the technology for higher quality streaming became a reality I wanted to move up to higher quality due to thinking it’s what my big system needed, plus being around other gear heads telling me you will never get true hi res or “audiophile “ quality music. Well I pretty much decided that for my mid fifties ears, I am good with what I was getting from my connect. With the introduction of S2 my Connect that I’ve been using over the last years was no longer being supported with updates, I looked to maybe go a different route than Sonos. Blue sound node is what I was thinking of. I spent countless hours reading the reviews and how for the money it was an incredible unit to go with, especially as I had purchased a better Dac for my system. I ordered the node, and the day it came, I decided I didn’t have the WiFi bandwidth to support the node via WiFi and I do not have access to go wired, plus with all the negative reviews on the app and such, I just thought it wasn’t worth the hassle. I went to my local audio store and picked up a new port and connected it to my Dac along with my old connect to compare the two as I had read that the sound was better on the connect than the newer port. I switched back and forth and had my wife do a blind listening test, and we both found the port to sound better. 

I stream a lot, even probably more than I use my turntable or CD player as I love the ease of playing what I want at the touch of a screen. 
 

To the original post, do I wish that Sonos made a higher end streamer? Maybe, but to many audiophiles it would still not be enough as there is the golden ear issue that so many swear they can hear the difference, and if they can, more power to them. Personally, I really love Sonos and I totally respect the company for not bricking older products and continuing to come up with new and better products and upgrades. 
 

S
Badge

My experience is similar to Kumar’s. I’ve recently switched from a small setup of old ZP90’s (Connects) to a small setup of Ports. I’ve noticed no significant deterioration in sound quality - even though both ZP90’s and Ports are set to “variable” rather than “fixed” output (because I want to be able change the volume in each room from the app, rather than going into each room to do so).

In both setups I’ve been using a good-quality external DAC and power amps (by Cyrus, retail cost around £5000 total) and decent midrange (£4000) speakers, so if my ears were golden enough I ~should~ be able to hear a difference.

Having said that, I believe that a typical person’s audio memory lasts for a matter of seconds (7 seconds is the figure that I can recall) so if any change takes longer than that, the listener probably won’t be able to detect changes in sound quality with any accuracy. Needless to say, the update of my system from ZP90s to Ports took longer than 7 seconds, so perhaps I’m not really qualified to comment...

Im interested in what you have said here. I'm trying to rationalise giving up my other streamers/transports for the ease of using sonos but I cant help feel that I will be short changed on SQ but your probably right after several seconds I wont remember and then its just a case of putting it out of my head. I wish sonos would offer a desktop solution as I'm trying to come up with a good home office solution. I currently use a pair of play 1s which sound fine/ok near field but i have no way of getting pc audio etc into them. Its this solution I want to get the sq right with whatever i do as its where i will do a lot of listening in a nearfield environment and its where I think I'm most likely to feel short changed on sq if it was an issue.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

The thing that Sonos brought to me was streaming music via Spotify and playing internet radio.  I started with a Play 3 in my kitchen purchased mainly for my wife who was using a small crummy Bluetooth speaker.  My multi-room hi-fi was too confusing and too much of a hassle for her to use.  

When the Sonos Amp came out I purchased one to replace the integrated amp I was using on my three season porch which was hooked up to a pair of speakers, a TV and the main system’s preamp.  It worked great with the TV, turning on when it sensed audio from the TV, allowing me to use the remote from the tv to adjust the volume.

It also worked well with my main hi-fi system I had setup in the basement.  As soon as the needle dropped onto the record the amp would wake up and start playing at a preset volume level.  I was also able to eliminate some devices that were in place in the line connection to deal with ground loops as my old integrated amp had grounded plugs.  

The third bonus was how easy it was to control and stream Spotify from my iPad.  I went from streaming 5 percent to now 75 percent after replacing another integrated amp in my living room with a second Sonos Amp.  The speakers in that room is often grouped with my Play 3 when my wife and I are sitting around the kitchen table.  Being able to add the Play 3 and balance the volume supplements the sound coming from the main speakers in the living room.

The Sonos Amp drives my monitors just fine and the sound I get from my records is undistinguishable from my all analog rig in the basement.  I get much enjoyment from Spotify and find myself spending more time actively listening and exploring music via my main monitors in the living room all from my iPad.

K

 

Having said that, I believe that a typical person’s audio memory last for a matter of seconds ( Needless to say, the update of my system from ZP90s to Ports took longer than 7 seconds, so perhaps I’m not really qualified to comment...

Both good points (although my memory of the research suggests that this time is less than 7 seconds) and give an insight into why setting up a robust level matched blind test is not easily done at home. Which means unfortunately that the field is left wide open to every kind of subjective comment that there can be about comparative sound quality. For kit from amps to DACs. Or even speakers in some cases.

However the specialist media has the resources to run these tests in a proper manner, but their reason for shirking from this is because 90% of what they write would then have no cause to exist, undermining their existence.

So, the merry go around goes on for those that get on it.

I am not one that rules out the effect of subjective influences on the listening experience, but I happen to think that Sonos users would be better served with a HiFi speaker that looks the part more than the 5 unit does. Or even the One, for that matter. Blessed with a well crafted veneered cabinet, both would look “HiFi” and therefore sound better to many users, more than any “audiophile” edition of the Port - which is already too expensive for what it does. Of course only as long as said user was able to overlook the Sonos name on it, which audiophiles look down upon as being too cheap to sound good to their imagined golden ears. So maybe this won’t work either!

PS: One byproduct of this thinking is the paradox that audiophiles think that the Port is too cheap to be able meet the standards set by their golden ears, while most Sonos users think that it is way too expensive for what it does.

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +9

My experience is similar to Kumar’s. I’ve recently switched from a small setup of old ZP90’s (Connects) to a small setup of Ports. I’ve noticed no significant deterioration in sound quality - even though both ZP90’s and Ports are set to “variable” rather than “fixed” output (because I want to be able change the volume in each room from the app, rather than going into each room to do so).

In both setups I’ve been using a good-quality external DAC and power amps (by Cyrus, retail cost around £5000 total) and decent midrange (£4000) speakers, so if my ears were golden enough I ~should~ be able to hear a difference.

Having said that, I believe that a typical person’s audio memory lasts for a matter of seconds (7 seconds is the figure that I can recall) so if any change takes longer than that, the listener probably won’t be able to detect changes in sound quality with any accuracy. Needless to say, the update of my system from ZP90s to Ports took longer than 7 seconds, so perhaps I’m not really qualified to comment...

K

Why is a separate DAC even necessary with a Port.

For an equipment hobbyist, that tinkering is a necessity to keep the hobby going, with the amount spent on the external DAC varying according to budgets. Mature tech is an obstacle to this tinkering so, ergo, it isn't mature yet. Been there, done that. With external DACs costing up to USD 1500.

I have two old Connects that have worked fine with both variable and fixed outputs and since both options sound the same I prefer using variable for the remote volume control it confers. I have never heard the Port, but I suspect that even the issue with the variable outputs has not yet been picked out by anyone in a blind listening test with accurate level matching.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

Why is a separate DAC even necessary with a Port.  Just plug the line output into your preamp, much simpler less hardware and wire.  Is not the DAC a mature technology?

S
Badge

The Port has drawn criticism for the DSP applied to the digital out when using Variable Volume mode. When using an external DAC it would make sense to switch to Fixed Volume, albeit at the loss of volume/EQ control via the Sonos controller.

I use it in fixed mode only so you do loose the volume and tone controls. Incidentally I think the dsp used in sonos speakers make them so easy to listen to and a sonos port connected to a pair of dsp powered speakers sounds better than through a standard dac amp speaker combo. Dsp is the work of the devil to some audiophiles but I'm all for it. If it sounds better to my ears I don't really care what kind of audio heresy has gone on to achieve it.

ratty

The Port has drawn criticism for the DSP applied to the digital out when using Variable Volume mode. When using an external DAC it would make sense to switch to Fixed Volume, albeit at the loss of volume/EQ control via the Sonos controller.

S
Badge

Just my 2 cents I have loved hifi for 20 plus years and as someone in this thread said I had stopped listening to music and started listening to the kit itself. Its a never ending pursuit of tweaking and upgrading which gets eye wateringly expensive. I started with sonos with a single play 1 for my wife for her work space years back and as time went on I have added more about the house and I have to say it brings back the joy of the music not the equipment. I have stopped the critical listening and accepted the sonos kit for what it is. I will say though that the port does not sound right to me I have one into a very good dac and it just sounds average compared to a raspberry pi plus a hat board at a fraction of the price but still the ease of use and integration is so good it cant be matched in my view. I cant see sonos ever offering an audiophile grade port as its such a small market compared to the their target market. Don't get me wrong id love one but it will never happen. I think the likes of aftermarket upgrades are going to be the only way if that's your thing or as I have done keep 1 good digital transport for listening in your main space alongside a sonos port. Finally with regards jitter maybe its snake oil I don't know but I borrowed a linear psu for the port and it sounded better with my dac anyway so maybe there is something to it(I'm aware that this doesn't resolve a digital issue though). Also my understating with regards to jitter/timing/clocking with spdif is that it is done before it is sent via spdif where as usb reclocks on receipt at the far end so for example my chord dac converts the spdif signal to analogue as it receives it errors and all where as it corrects a digital signal received via usb. 

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +9

Really, your argument is like saying that Honda needs to start making supercars, so the supercar fans will tell others that the Accord is a good vehicle.

I think your point is largely a valid one, but the choice of Honda is a bit ironic, because the (original) NSX was considered to be a supercar, by the standards of the time! And it probably did affect their reputation for a time, though few people seem to know much about them now.

K

@Ivan Jeremic : it isn't just me; there is not ONE reported controlled level matched blind listening test anywhere in the world that has been able to pick the difference in a way that is statistically reliable. 

If there is any such reported, I would be very happy to read it through.

It will not affect my listening/buying - since I don't hear differences, I don’t need to run after expensive streamers or DACs, but more learning is always welcome.

My source these days is an Echo Show 5 - USD 50 - and that is just as good as anything else I have used in the past, and with album art as well, it is a very convenient high quality music source to Line In jacks on my Sonos kit. 

I
Userlevel 2

@Kumar If you have tried 35$ Chromecast, 350$ Port and 1000$ DAC in blind lostening test and could not hear difference then I stand corrected and you have my deepest appologies. 

K

 

You are basically speking in front of milion of audiophiles even you are not one and about things you havent even tried. 

That is a classic example of an ungrounded assumption.

I
Userlevel 2

@melvimbe Honda Racing Fondation was formed in 1982 in order for them to be able to experiment and try out different things to build better cars and I would say that it was a good idea. Honda today build great cars. 
Bealive it or not Sonos is building audiophile gear. Everyone who buy more then one of their products is an audiophile. They can buy cheaper products but they choose Sonos because it sounds good and it is easy to use.
Would you buy Sonos speaker if it sounds like crap but it is easy to use and looks kind of nice?

I
Userlevel 2

@Kumar These are all assumptions. These are not grounded arguments. What if difference can be heard and what if a lot of audiphiles use modified Sonos Connects as a source just because of convinience?

You are basically speking in front of milion of audiophiles even you are not one and about things you havent even tried. 

K

If a USD 25 Chromecast, a USD 350 Port and a USD 1000 external DAC can’t be picked apart in a blind listening test, what’s the point of such a Port?

Audiophiles will never love Sonos, a mass market brand, even where it sells at a higher price point than many such. As soon as mass market is the target, audiophiles exit. It has nothing to do with sound quality, but with human psychology.

melvimbe

My point is that you have to have music lovers on your side. There is a very small difference from being judged as great from just good. It is a matter of preference. People who are active on forums, write reviews, do youtube videos and so on are audiophiles. This is a best way to make them LOVE Sonos. It is always give and take relationship.

Honestly, I can’t say that I’ve looked at the opinions of audiophiles when making decisions on audio quality.  Whenever possible, I trust my own ears. Even when seeking advice from youtubers  or other social media, it’s not the people looking for perfection that I’m listening to. From my experience, audiophiles don’t have the same priorities as me.   

Even if audiophiles did help with sales as you suggest, I’m not sure that a $900 Port is going to help sell the $350 Port….since the audiophile is likely going to say the  $350 Port isn’t good enough.  Really, your argument is like saying that Honda needs to start making supercars, so the supercar fans will tell others that the Accord is a good vehicle.

Danny
Sonosjunkie
Userlevel 5
Badge +12

If I had an ask of Sonos in terms of ‘upping their game’ then it would simply be around things like the robustness of components liable to wear and tear (e.g optical connection on play  bar). 
 

i don’t claim to be an audiophile. Have dabbled in high end audio equipment in the past, same for specialist AV/TH equipment - but ultimately it was the ease of use, accessibility and convenience of Sonos that won out. Sure there are 100s of features each of us would like to see happen (higher bitrate, more speaker options in TH congigs etc) - but those who’ve already said it are correct - Sonos is a ‘mid quality mainstream’ manufacturer. There will probably never be a product that is significantly ‘better’ than a pair of Play 5s for stereo. And same goes for the rest of the niche players. 
 

despite grumbles. I would still rather the convenience that filling the house or any multiple combination of rooms with Spotify over a single ‘high end’ system. It makes for a much more flexible ‘music’ experience than sitting in a dark room with acoustic treatments, the ball-ache of a turntable and worrying if the £1000 gold cables really were a wise investment. 

Lounge: 5.1 Arc HT (2x Subs and 2xP5 rears) with LGOLED77CX. Kitchen: 2xOneW, 2xP3w with SubW. Bedroom: 2xP1s. Office/Studio: 2xP5w. Snug 2xP1s. Garage: 2xOneW. Also 3x Moves.
I
Userlevel 2

@Antifon gave a very good explanation of most of the problems.

Another problem I am aware of is also that 0 or 1 is level of voltage. It looks something like this __-_-___----__ where low is 0 and high is 1. Change from 0 voltage to 1 voltage levels does not happens in no time. You have time needed to change voltage from 0 to 1 and vice versa so you have some “in between time” lets say not 0 not 1 but if you catch signal in a bad time then it is “0.2” or “0.332” times. Also you can see that if you have several zeroes in a row there is no change in voltage.. If signal is not clocked correctly then these get misinterpreted.  You have electrical pollution from WiFi and home appliances etc which can cause “buzz” in audio circuits. You have definitely hear those sometime when being extremely strong but they occur all the time. Signal is passed through the cable which can be faster at transferring this voltage level changes or slower… When you have 44kHz/16bit signal that mean DAC is taking 16 bit of signal 44000 times per second… Plenty of chances to make an error.

Coming from IT background in the first I did not believe in any of this stuff. Sure good DAC will interpret digital signal in more musical matter but that is it. 1 is 1. 0 is 0. Nothing could change that until I heard noticeable differences when using different digital sources even different digital cables.

Antifon is right when saying that this is not a big problem in a real world. Most of the people will not recognise it because they do not have gear which can reproduce this errors in processing in a way you can actually hear them. I describe it as a coarse sound. Its like you have a distortion in a sound similar to what you get when you crank volume up too much but in a more subtle manner. You can recognise it when it is gone. Music appears softer, cleaner, more relaxed. There are no sharp edges. You can listen to music longer even on higher leves.

How Sonos can deal with that I do not know. Probably just by removing complexity from device (no audio processing etc) and try to get rid of interferences from electric network I suppose… Maybe using better components since this part was left as appendix which no one cares about. I am not an expert on this.. Just my thoughts.

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +9

An external DAC can’t resolve jitter on an SPDIF link, because SPDIF has no error correction facility.

Essentially it happens when the clock at the receiving end fails to match the clock at the sending end. Valid data can be lost, invalid data can be inserted and valid data can be corrupted.

The receiver may be able to detect that errors have occurred but, because there is no error correction, can do nothing about it.

This description makes it sound serious but, in my experience, it’s not in the real world! I did some experiments in the mid 90’s with cheap SPDIF equipment and… I never found any examples of errors caused by jitter. But that doesn’t mean that it can’t happen.

Jitter seems to be quoted frequently by higher-end audio manufacturers, and I suspect that the main reason they do it is that few people understand what it is, and even fewer have the ability to measure it - so they can make any claims that they like with no real danger that their claims will be questioned.

Historically, concern about jitter mainly arose in telecoms networks before the time when the phase locked loop had been invented. These days, clock stability is such that networks can operate at tens of Gb/s without any issues at all, so designing a clock for PCM audio really isn’t a technical challenge!

J

I know very little about jitter. Virtually nothing in fact. What I do know is that if I am using digital coaxial out from a Connect, I must have an external DAC, and be bypassing the DAC in the Connect. 

So how can my Connect be introducing jitter that is not, as @jgatie says, sorted out by the external DAC?

What is the Connect doing to degrade the sound please, @Ivan Jeremic ?  What is it doing other than forward packets of 0s and 1s?

I
Userlevel 2

Totally agree. As one smart man said once “You are listening to music not measurements” 

 

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +9

I can understand what you are saying, and it’s a very interesting subject, if you like that sort of thing!

A very recent example that I can think of is a highly respected manufacturer of loudspeakers, covering both domestic and “professional” customers (I won’t name them here). Their products have been well reviewed for many many years, and then suddenly a reviewer (Audio Science Review) decided to measure the linearity of the frequency response of their products and found that - shock, horror - they aren’t very linear at all!

Of course, everyone knows that the frequency response must be ruler-flat, so how could this be, when many people (including me) like the sound of their products?

It does imply that focussing on what “everyone knows” will produce the best sound may be counter-productive, and that you may be better off simply trying your equipment in front of a selection of “typical” listeners. You can then make whatever they like the sound of best - even if that means non-linear frequency response, poor jitter performance, etc.

Reply


Terms & ConditionsCookie settings