Hey Sonos Engineers!
I know this has been touched upon. I previously submitted this request to support and they encouraged me to share here to keep the conversation going.
Is there any chance we could implement a soft switch for line-in audio to bypass the computer for "delay disable" functionality.
I understand and appreciate the reason for the delay.
However, I'm running turntables through a mixer and into the line-in of the PLAY:5. Can't teach my son to mix records with that delay, and since we're set-up in a communal space, my wife is not too keen on bringing out the old mix monitors. Can you dig it?
Can we figure out a way to manually disable the delay on an individual speaker basis?
Otherwise love the gear!
Thanks!
Here's quote from customer support. Hope it isn't too heavy handed or out of school to post:
"I'm not on the development team, but I personally think that it wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of soft switch to bypass the computer altogether and pipe line-in audio directly to the amplifiers (something like a computer-controlled solid state IC relay network)."
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The latency has nothing to do with the A/D conversion. It is due to the input being buffered for transport to other devices, since timing issues require a significant buffer in order to achieve the perfect sync and reliability Sonos is known for.
Now one can ask why this buffering needs to be there if one is only using a single unit, but Sonos usually eschews that type of multi-use configuration, defaulting instead to its main purpose; a multi-room networked music system.
Now one can ask why this buffering needs to be there if one is only using a single unit, but Sonos usually eschews that type of multi-use configuration, defaulting instead to its main purpose; a multi-room networked music system.
Now one can ask why this buffering needs to be there if one is only using a single unit, but Sonos usually eschews that type of multi-use configuration, defaulting instead to its main purpose; a multi-room networked music system.
Yes, agreed! Sort of...
( Latency through A/D should be indistinguishable ) the word choice “should” is due to the fact that in certain situations the A/D conversion can introduce a noticeable latency.
This is directly related to IO buffer and sample size. So if the A/D conversion employs a lower sample size, less computing power is needed, however - this means a noticeable latency. Same with IO buffer.
So A/D does factor into latency, however - the transport buffer is really what we’re talking about. (Provided A/D is capable of sub 6ms latency)
I solved the problem for myself. I put a cheap delay on the audio out of my pre-amp to my 4-Amp Linn system and delayed it for 70 MS. The Motron RTS 200c Radio/TV Sync ($199 at Amazon). Now I control my Play 5 pair in the Dining Room and my Living Room Linn system with my iPhone Airplay. Separate volume control from my pocket.
Also, John B,
- 16129 replies
and Ratty.
- 27907 replies
I see that I am dealing with some serious Sonos fans. Sorry to wade into that, I’ll certainly learn to keep my opinions to myself, leave it to the authorities here. thanks y’all.
So because you have the option to modify the delay within a range, you assume that the delay can be modified to less delay than in your provided range? That’s your evidence? Could it possibly be the range is limited for technical reasons rather than arbitrary?
Of course it is arbitrary. Otherwise, the argument would be moot, and the posters asking for this feature would be incorrect in their assumptions. And that can never happen. Ever. So they apply their “logic” in any way that makes them correct. Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Just like the people who still think you can fit a 1 Gig application in a 124 K bag.
I’m thinking about using the suggested method of converting the analog rca signal from my mixer to digital optical and put that into the sonos playbar. I read this introduces a 30 ms latency. I have a few questions about your experiences:
- is this a maximum latency or is this latency always present?
- it feels like this latency is noticeable and would still make it difficult to beatmatch; what are everybody’s experiences with this so far?
It is arbitrary. You know it. I know it.
I’ve worked at embedded hardware companies before. Some QA team (maybe just one guy) tested a range of latencies on a couple linksys routers a decade ago and decided 70 was “about as good as it would get without stuttering”, and they closed the ticket and went home for the day.
Call it arbitrary or not…. It was a subjective decision. One in which I’m not interested.
This is like someone at Burger King’s corporate office deciding three pickels is the right number to put on a burger. Yeah, it’s probably a fine decision for most people. And most people won’t even think about it. But if I want an extra pickel or no pickels, you know, I bet even Burger King would do that if I asked, with minimal to no complaints, instead of sticking their head in the sand. And there wouldn’t be someone standing around telling me how unusual my no pickels request is and that it doesn’t fit the business model. GIVE ME A BREAK.
(Merged with other reply)
”Warning: Crunchy, raw, unboned real dead frog”
Yes, it is correct that the line in latency can not be reduced at this point in time.
Not knowing the code base, versus the underlying design for synchronized whole home music, which is the basis of the existence of Sonos, I don’t know how difficult such a change would be. I do know that if I was looking for a direct pass through speaker, Sonos would not be on my list of possibilities, similar to how I wouldn’t pull a horse trailer with a Ferrari automobile. There are, as has been said many times in these forums, horses for courses.
We all know the real reason the line in has delay to it. You just don’t want to say it. Products with line-in don’t cost enough, and the latency is your penalty/incentive to buy the more expensive model. “Don’t be a cheater” says SONOS. “You need to pay for the expensive home theatre products if you want true line in. Proles.” And you better like it too.
Line In capable products:
Port - $450
Five - $500
Amp - $650
Move - $400 (if you count bluetooth as a line in capability)
No latency (HDMI-ARC/optical)
Beam - $400
Amp - $650
Arc - $800
I like your comparison with the horse trailer, so why have they put a trailer hook on the Ferrari, which you cannot use propperly?
Just had a marketing email from Sonos suggesting that I use a Sonos speaker in my home office as a “ home office assistant”. I’m confused - why would you introduce a Sonos [rather than, say, an Echo Dot] into a home office where the chances are you already have a computer with speakers … unless of course you could replace the computer speakers with the Sonos … but for many, the latency issue may be a barrier to doing so … ?
Userlevel 1
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
Userlevel 5
+14
Hi
Welcome, thank you for reaching out to Sonos Community.
You can try to check this link for Use Line-In on Sonos
Let us know if it works. If you need help with any other information, please be sure to let us know.
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
Member since 2017, just posting now? Phew, I smell stinky socks.
Userlevel 1
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
No they don't, on digital input, unless you Group them with other devices.
Oh, I heard that it was also the case on ungrouped speakers. So this delay-free functionality already exists in the platform.
Then what would the remaining reasons be not to implement this feature?
Userlevel 7
+17
One would also think that buyers of an expensive multiroom speakers system would invest in a little more research than the pictures on the Sonos website (that show turntables but should not show DJ set ups) but or acting on what one would think when seeing a line input. Yes, the 70ms delay is a disadvantage in some use cases, but it is not a hidden fact and plausible seeing the multiroom system.
Userlevel 7
+17
I did not mean to be condescending. I’m just very surprised when people do not read up on stuff before they buy.
I did not mean to be condescending. I’m just very surprised when people do not read up on stuff before they buy.
Thanks for acknowledging that. Most persons lives are busy enough that they tend not to read every detail about a product, particularly a feature of a product that works in a particular manner in their experience. When someone views a line-in, they do not necessarily ask themselves “does it work like other line-ins” because in their experience, there is a specific pattern for line inputs. They rarely have delays. Clearly Sonos wants to do the right thing, clearly they want as much marketshare and customers as possible. They can either add functionality such that when there is a line input and there are not other Sonos speakers in the network, the delay is 0. Or they can adjust their marketing materials to simply note the delay more upfront and then customers like myself won’t be surprised or caught off guard with what is otherwise a first class experience.
Userlevel 7
+21
You could try feeding your DJ controller into a converter from Analogue to optical then use the optical adapter on the beam. Not sure what the delay would be using that method.
...and added the no-delay functionality. Because they apparently thought it was worth the effort, it’s not up to us to decide that for them.
As a purely technical comment, i do not believe they have introduced ‘no delay’ anywhere. I believe (although I am not 100% certain) that the 30ms lag is to allow the main HT speaker (e.g. Arc) to sync with the Sub / surrounds. 30ms is not detectable by the brain as far as lip sync issues are concerned. The connection used is direct routing over 5GHz, because this allows latency as low as 30ms. I aloo believe (but am not 100% certain) that this delay also applies when the HT speaker is used without Sub and speakers. That would be consistent with having a lag on the line-in on a Play:5 even when not grouped.
If the HT speaker is grouped with other speakers for music, the 75ms lag is needed to sync perfectly, as it is for any other speaker.
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
So I think you were right in the first place.
"Solving the problem" with the current Sonos hardware requires ignoring the laws of physics. Do you suggest Sonos should be pursuing the goal of overturning the laws of physics in order to address a particular group of customers?
As to having a big sign, can you point to any company that openly advertises all the things their products cannot do? Even so, Sonos clearly states the delay exists on their Line-In FAQ page.
A good article here, knowledgeable input on the subject of unfortunate latency on the Sonos 5's.
https://darko.audio/2021/03/3-more-thoughts-on-the-sonos-five-vs-kef-lsx/
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