I know this has been touched upon. I previously submitted this request to support and they encouraged me to share here to keep the conversation going.
Is there any chance we could implement a soft switch for line-in audio to bypass the computer for "delay disable" functionality.
I understand and appreciate the reason for the delay.
However, I'm running turntables through a mixer and into the line-in of the PLAY:5. Can't teach my son to mix records with that delay, and since we're set-up in a communal space, my wife is not too keen on bringing out the old mix monitors. Can you dig it?
Can we figure out a way to manually disable the delay on an individual speaker basis?
Otherwise love the gear!
Thanks!
Here's quote from customer support. Hope it isn't too heavy handed or out of school to post:
"I'm not on the development team, but I personally think that it wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of soft switch to bypass the computer altogether and pipe line-in audio directly to the amplifiers (something like a computer-controlled solid state IC relay network)."
"Solving the problem" with the current Sonos hardware requires ignoring the laws of physics.
dude. local mode. nothing fancy.
Dude. Use actual PA speakers built for your purpose. Nothing fancy.
As to having a big sign, can you point to any company that openly advertises all the things their products cannot do? Even so, Sonos clearly states the delay exists on their Line-In FAQ page.
i can see you are the type of person who likes to argue.
yes i read their FAQ. yes i know theres a delay. and yes i love my sonos 5. are you happy?
the delay still sucks, and not just for me. it sucks for all their customers and potential customers.
No, it does not suck "for all their customers and potential customers." Matter of fact, the amount of customers seeking to use Sonos for live performances would quite logically be an exceedingly small section of their intended market.
A good article here, knowledgeable input on the subject of unfortunate latency on the Sonos 5's.
https://darko.audio/2021/03/3-more-thoughts-on-the-sonos-five-vs-kef-lsx/
Not knowledgeable at all. The delay is not due to any DSP. It is due to the need to buffer the input for multi-room sync. Sonos needs to build up a buffer before playing, so that any timing issues have a buffer to work with in case of signal errors or dropouts. The buffer allows each unit to re-request any bad packets before the buffer runs out, thus not affecting the stream and keeping the units in sync.
.. I think we all understand 'why' Sonos has latency, your point has been mentioned many times throughout this thread, the point is understood and valid only from the use of wanting to sync to other speakers.
Some here and myself are not interested in always syncing music, but using the speaker as a simple standalone speaker via the line in.
We're asking for the option to reduce or remove the latency simply and purely for direct local use of the speaker (musicians use). The article makes a point not made here yet, some knowledgeable info, in that in his experience of latency, it needs to be below 40ms for it to be unnoticeable and or useable as a direct source of sound. Knowing this makes it surely an even easier job for Sonos to allow a lower latency option in the app (albeit with a dropout warning) for those who still try to sync at that (unreccomended) lower level.
It looks like he was as surprised as I was, that the speaker isn't without latency when simply using line in (no syncing necessary), which is why he had to return to add this oversight to his article.
This is his l video review here, prior to his redactions that I posted, I stand by it really is a good review.
https://darko.audio/2021/03/a-short-film-about-the-sonos-five-vs-kef-lsx/
Why counter my vote for the feature if you’re not against it? I was trying to prevent exactly this bike shedding with my first post.
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At Sonos employees: I would just like a straightforward way of connecting no-delay inputs like instruments & computer audio to the RCA / mini jack inputs on the AMP & Five.
The current solution looks a little ridiculous and still adds ~30ms of delay: HDMI-Optical audio converter → optical audio cable → digital-analog converter → RCA cable → Actual audio device.
+1 to add the simple feature ‘line-in without delay' to supplement ‘line-in for network streaming’. Can’t believe Sonos can’t see this as an opportunity, especially with the reaction to legacy product support - though I guess these are the same folks who one time thought bundling a bridge with every Play:5 had a value to customers wanting to buy multiple units !
I have 2 rooms in the house that have streaming music, computer AV/gaming, TV and electronic musical instruments. Guess what - they don’t all play at the same time. But if I follow the steer from Sonos, it seems they’d suggest that having separate amp/speaker systems for each of these - 8 speakers - hardly a credible, elegant solution in a small room. Opportunity missed, Sonos :(
+1 to add the simple feature ‘line-in without delay' to supplement ‘line-in for network streaming’. Can’t believe Sonos can’t see this as an opportunity, especially with the reaction to legacy product support - though I guess these are the same folks who one time thought bundling a bridge with every Play:5 had a value to customers wanting to buy multiple units !
I have 2 rooms in the house that have streaming music, computer AV/gaming, TV and electronic musical instruments. Guess what - they don’t all play at the same time. But if I follow the steer from Sonos, it seems they’d suggest that having separate amp/speaker systems for each of these - 8 speakers - hardly a credible, elegant solution in a small room. Opportunity missed, Sonos :(
Can you perhaps provide an ‘example’ of what audio source you are playing through the Sonos line-in and where you are playing it to, that it plays out of sync for you. There might be, in some cases, ways to resolve some of these things so they do play in sync, but it depends on what you are trying to do.
SONOS was not designed to be used in live a DJ environment.
Why are you attempting to use SONOS for this application? Is it for wireless connectivity or compact size?
A workaround would be to use headphones with high acoustic isolation to monitor the mixer output.
Whilst you usage case is perfectly valid it is, I'm sure you appreciate, a very small number of customers who want to use the product in this way.
In terms of the delay I'm sure Sonos have undertaken a number of tests to find an optimal delay - A delay is required as errors in the stream which could be caused by slightly poor connectivity, wireless interference or poor internet need to be buffered so that they become invisible to the listener.
I don't know if is trivial or not to turn-off the delay for certain cases but I suspect it is highly unlikely that Sonos will make this change.
You're going to need to get those mix monitors out of the loft, can your wife dig it?
As Stuart_W notes, this has nothing to do with wireless propagation times which are of course at the speed of light.
Any system which attempts to produce synchronous playback from multiple units connected via an asynchronous communication medium has to do (at least) two things:
- provide sufficient buffering to absorb the variations in packet transit times across the network
- exchange highly accurate timing information between the devices such that final playback can be synchronised
In an apartment, where neighbouring wireless networks are competing for bandwidth, it's all the more important to maintain buffering to prevent the receiving device being starved of data by a burst of interference. Sonos chose 70ms as the optimum solution, presumably sized to cope with packet jitter across a typical multi-hop SonosNet wireless mesh.
Although in theory it might be possible to collapse the delay out of the audio pipeline for a player which is operating Line-In stand-alone, it would likely be a lot of work for an outlier use-case. It would also produce playback discontinuities when other players were grouped or ungrouped.
Yes, but those numbers are most probably a really tiny fraction of Sonos customers. Remember, we're talking here about the case where a user has a Line-In to a PLAY:5, CONNECT or CONNECT:AMP and wants to simply use it as a local amplifier/speaker. No network communications, no streaming, no multi-room: all the kinds of features which account for Sonos' market position and success.
The opportunity cost of addressing a niche (low latency / DJ mixing) of a niche (stand-alone play) of a niche (Line-In play) would potentially be huge, compared to all the other much more popular feature requests stacked up in Product Development's in-tray.
I also hooked up the playbar to my computer for a test and I noticed a latency between button clicks and noises.
Whilst there could be an argument for dispensing with such latency when PLAYBAR operates without satellites, the marginal gain presumably never warranted the extra development effort. Besides, for many the 30ms doesn't matter, and in some territories with bad broadcast lip-sync where video lags the audio the PLAYBAR latency can even be constructive.
Those using an external TV set-top box, Bluray/DVD, etc. who want tighter sync have the option of bypassing the TV and switching audio direct to the PLAYBAR.
https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1966
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