Hey Sonos Engineers!
I know this has been touched upon. I previously submitted this request to support and they encouraged me to share here to keep the conversation going.
Is there any chance we could implement a soft switch for line-in audio to bypass the computer for "delay disable" functionality.
I understand and appreciate the reason for the delay.
However, I'm running turntables through a mixer and into the line-in of the PLAY:5. Can't teach my son to mix records with that delay, and since we're set-up in a communal space, my wife is not too keen on bringing out the old mix monitors. Can you dig it?
Can we figure out a way to manually disable the delay on an individual speaker basis?
Otherwise love the gear!
Thanks!
Here's quote from customer support. Hope it isn't too heavy handed or out of school to post:
"I'm not on the development team, but I personally think that it wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of soft switch to bypass the computer altogether and pipe line-in audio directly to the amplifiers (something like a computer-controlled solid state IC relay network)."
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Why counter my vote for the feature if you’re not against it? I was trying to prevent exactly this bike shedding with my first post.
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At Sonos employees: I would just like a straightforward way of connecting no-delay inputs like instruments & computer audio to the RCA / mini jack inputs on the AMP & Five.
The current solution looks a little ridiculous and still adds ~30ms of delay: HDMI-Optical audio converter → optical audio cable → digital-analog converter → RCA cable → Actual audio device.
(Merged with other reply)
We all know the real reason the line in has delay to it. You just don’t want to say it. Products with line-in don’t cost enough, and the latency is your penalty/incentive to buy the more expensive model. “Don’t be a cheater” says SONOS. “You need to pay for the expensive home theatre products if you want true line in. Proles.” And you better like it too.
Line In capable products:
Port - $450
Five - $500
Amp - $650
Move - $400 (if you count bluetooth as a line in capability)
No latency (HDMI-ARC/optical)
Beam - $400
Amp - $650
Arc - $800
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
Member since 2017, just posting now? Phew, I smell stinky socks.
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
No they don't, on digital input, unless you Group them with other devices.
Oh, I heard that it was also the case on ungrouped speakers. So this delay-free functionality already exists in the platform.
Then what would the remaining reasons be not to implement this feature?
...and added the no-delay functionality. Because they apparently thought it was worth the effort, it’s not up to us to decide that for them.
As a purely technical comment, i do not believe they have introduced ‘no delay’ anywhere. I believe (although I am not 100% certain) that the 30ms lag is to allow the main HT speaker (e.g. Arc) to sync with the Sub / surrounds. 30ms is not detectable by the brain as far as lip sync issues are concerned. The connection used is direct routing over 5GHz, because this allows latency as low as 30ms. I aloo believe (but am not 100% certain) that this delay also applies when the HT speaker is used without Sub and speakers. That would be consistent with having a lag on the line-in on a Play:5 even when not grouped.
If the HT speaker is grouped with other speakers for music, the 75ms lag is needed to sync perfectly, as it is for any other speaker.
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
So I think you were right in the first place.
My use case? And when did I ever tell you my use case?
I was responding to the myriad mostly reasonable use cases stated before me. And it’s not really your place nor Sonos’ to judge how I use a speaker. You’re not my mother.
We paid for them, we’ll use em how we please thanks!
The idea that line in audio might need to be live because it’s associated with video is pretty common. And that’s how audio always was before sonos. You don’t get to just add a mis-feature and not acknowledge it on the box. Most people at one time or another have hooked up speakers to a tv or computer, or watched a youtube video in a car from their phone. Live is expected unless they call them “Sonos Non-Live Speakers” or “Sonos Premium Delay Speakers” or some nonsense.
Yet Sonos somehow has cornered the market on excuses to add latency. Leave it to audiophiles to rationalize why audio lag is actually a good thing! Bet its harder to notice with some nice sound rocks in the room too. https://www.ebay.com/itm/293943838982?mkevt=1&mkcid=28&chn=ps which color sounds better?
Leaving aside the hyperbolic verbiage, you implied a use case that required zero/low latency, otherwise why would you post on this thread?
As for audio in conjunction with video, as has been pointed out countless times Sonos makes home theatre products for just such a purpose.
We paid for them, we’ll use em how we please thanks!
Products are designed to do what they do. Caveat emptor.
People stop feeding the troll.
Good grief! 
So because you have the option to modify the delay within a range, you assume that the delay can be modified to less delay than in your provided range? That’s your evidence? Could it possibly be the range is limited for technical reasons rather than arbitrary?
Of course it is arbitrary. Otherwise, the argument would be moot, and the posters asking for this feature would be incorrect in their assumptions. And that can never happen. Ever. So they apply their “logic” in any way that makes them correct. Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Just like the people who still think you can fit a 1 Gig application in a 124 K bag.
It is arbitrary. You know it. I know it.
I’ve worked at embedded hardware companies before. Some QA team (maybe just one guy) tested a range of latencies on a couple linksys routers a decade ago and decided 70 was “about as good as it would get without stuttering”, and they closed the ticket and went home for the day.
Call it arbitrary or not…. It was a subjective decision. One in which I’m not interested.
This is like someone at Burger King’s corporate office deciding three pickels is the right number to put on a burger. Yeah, it’s probably a fine decision for most people. And most people won’t even think about it. But if I want an extra pickel or no pickels, you know, I bet even Burger King would do that if I asked, with minimal to no complaints, instead of sticking their head in the sand. And there wouldn’t be someone standing around telling me how unusual my no pickels request is and that it doesn’t fit the business model. GIVE ME A BREAK.
A good article here, knowledgeable input on the subject of unfortunate latency on the Sonos 5's.
https://darko.audio/2021/03/3-more-thoughts-on-the-sonos-five-vs-kef-lsx/
A good article here, knowledgeable input on the subject of unfortunate latency on the Sonos 5's.
https://darko.audio/2021/03/3-more-thoughts-on-the-sonos-five-vs-kef-lsx/
Not knowledgeable at all. The delay is not due to any DSP. It is due to the need to buffer the input for multi-room sync. Sonos needs to build up a buffer before playing, so that any timing issues have a buffer to work with in case of signal errors or dropouts. The buffer allows each unit to re-request any bad packets before the buffer runs out, thus not affecting the stream and keeping the units in sync.
.. I think we all understand 'why' Sonos has latency, your point has been mentioned many times throughout this thread, the point is understood and valid only from the use of wanting to sync to other speakers.
Some here and myself are not interested in always syncing music, but using the speaker as a simple standalone speaker via the line in.
We're asking for the option to reduce or remove the latency simply and purely for direct local use of the speaker (musicians use). The article makes a point not made here yet, some knowledgeable info, in that in his experience of latency, it needs to be below 40ms for it to be unnoticeable and or useable as a direct source of sound. Knowing this makes it surely an even easier job for Sonos to allow a lower latency option in the app (albeit with a dropout warning) for those who still try to sync at that (unreccomended) lower level.
It looks like he was as surprised as I was, that the speaker isn't without latency when simply using line in (no syncing necessary), which is why he had to return to add this oversight to his article.
This is his l video review here, prior to his redactions that I posted, I stand by it really is a good review.
https://darko.audio/2021/03/a-short-film-about-the-sonos-five-vs-kef-lsx/
”Warning: Crunchy, raw, unboned real dead frog”
Also, John B,
- 16129 replies
and Ratty.
- 27907 replies
I see that I am dealing with some serious Sonos fans. Sorry to wade into that, I’ll certainly learn to keep my opinions to myself, leave it to the authorities here. thanks y’all.
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