Hey Sonos Engineers!
I know this has been touched upon. I previously submitted this request to support and they encouraged me to share here to keep the conversation going.
Is there any chance we could implement a soft switch for line-in audio to bypass the computer for "delay disable" functionality.
I understand and appreciate the reason for the delay.
However, I'm running turntables through a mixer and into the line-in of the PLAY:5. Can't teach my son to mix records with that delay, and since we're set-up in a communal space, my wife is not too keen on bringing out the old mix monitors. Can you dig it?
Can we figure out a way to manually disable the delay on an individual speaker basis?
Otherwise love the gear!
Thanks!
Here's quote from customer support. Hope it isn't too heavy handed or out of school to post:
"I'm not on the development team, but I personally think that it wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of soft switch to bypass the computer altogether and pipe line-in audio directly to the amplifiers (something like a computer-controlled solid state IC relay network)."
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For the sake of adding another voice in favor: I am not buying a Play:5 because of the line in latency, even though I'd love to extend Sonos to the office. I had assumed the line-in could go direct, without Sonos latency, when used as a standalone unit. Glad I searched for this first.
For me, the compact, high-quality play:5 is ideal for a medium sized home office. But not if it means having two sets of speakers occupying the space: one for the Sonos network and another to connect directly to a TV or computer. Low, direct-input latency is necessary for anything other than playing an album, like sound from a TV, messing with garageband, playing with a keyboard, amateur audio mixing, cutting a large audio file into separate parts, or even video editing home video.
Why buy a nice compact speaker for a office or bedroom when it's going to necessitate a separate wired system right next to it?
Maybe we're a small subset of users, so Sonos is unwilling to do it. That's fine -- I'm just one customer. But it's just a design/business decision. Audio equipment is normally designed for a source input to route around certain features as necessary. My main integrated amp routes sources around the equalizer by a switch. Line inputs on amps routinely route around effects features. And, of course, Sonos already allows you to set compressed or uncompressed, which in essence routes around compression. This function would just route the line input source direct to amp, skipping the network. It wouldn't take a focused effort, just implementation of a basic internal function.
One vote here for allowing Play:5 (and Connect:Amp) to operate as a standalone unit. The setting options would be: Automatic (default) Compressed (higher latency, better network), Uncompressed (lower latency, worse network), Standalone (zero latency, no network)
For me, the compact, high-quality play:5 is ideal for a medium sized home office. But not if it means having two sets of speakers occupying the space: one for the Sonos network and another to connect directly to a TV or computer. Low, direct-input latency is necessary for anything other than playing an album, like sound from a TV, messing with garageband, playing with a keyboard, amateur audio mixing, cutting a large audio file into separate parts, or even video editing home video.
Why buy a nice compact speaker for a office or bedroom when it's going to necessitate a separate wired system right next to it?
Maybe we're a small subset of users, so Sonos is unwilling to do it. That's fine -- I'm just one customer. But it's just a design/business decision. Audio equipment is normally designed for a source input to route around certain features as necessary. My main integrated amp routes sources around the equalizer by a switch. Line inputs on amps routinely route around effects features. And, of course, Sonos already allows you to set compressed or uncompressed, which in essence routes around compression. This function would just route the line input source direct to amp, skipping the network. It wouldn't take a focused effort, just implementation of a basic internal function.
One vote here for allowing Play:5 (and Connect:Amp) to operate as a standalone unit. The setting options would be: Automatic (default) Compressed (higher latency, better network), Uncompressed (lower latency, worse network), Standalone (zero latency, no network)
Userlevel 1
The latency issue on the line in is just ridiculous, I am absolutely gutted after buying my play 5 purely for the line in (a feature bizarrely missing from the play 3), I am now unable to use my turntables which was the whole reason I bought this setup. Surely there must be a way to disable this when in standalone mode 😞
Userlevel 1
There’s probably nothing that has not been said already. But I’m going to chime in anyhow.
I would also really like the no-latency standalone mode. The implementation could be very transparent: no delay on the line-in when not paired, the usual (configurable) 75ms~2000ms delay when paired with any other speaker. That would allow users of TV’s, computer speakers & DJ gear to use their great Sonos speakers to double as direct play speakers and completely replace the legacy systems. This would increase their footing in the industry they actually focus on: To be the prime audio system for the entire home. (Voice assistant, multi-room, streaming, local libraries)
Of course, the way wifi and streaming works, you can not remove the delay in all scenarios. That’s a fact of physics. But that does not mean other customers should vote against this idea while a lot of other users would love to see it. This is a great chance for Sonos, not a threat.
Please let the amount of votes & replies on this thread speak for itself.
I just bought a Play:5 and am trying to decide between keeping it and buying more, or going the Chromecast route (probably using JBL Playlists and the forthcoming Google Home Max).
If I could have them do part-time duty as part of a larger network of Chromecast speakers (including legacy speakers, e.g. outdoors), that would be fantastic, but of course we ran into this delay issue as soon as we tried it. I think it would be completely consistent with the rest of the Sonos UI for it to seamlessly "do the right thing" -- when you have a *single* speaker driven by line-in, minimize the delay, when playing to multiple speakers, add the delay. There wouldn't need to be any option exposed in the UI. With the proposed improvement, the Sonos would be just as good as all our other random speakers when driven by a Chromecast Audio, rather than unusably inferior to those speakers in this use case.
It sounds like the forthcoming Airplay 2 support may provide another way to do have Sonos play together with non-Sonos speakers, which is exciting.
If I could have them do part-time duty as part of a larger network of Chromecast speakers (including legacy speakers, e.g. outdoors), that would be fantastic, but of course we ran into this delay issue as soon as we tried it. I think it would be completely consistent with the rest of the Sonos UI for it to seamlessly "do the right thing" -- when you have a *single* speaker driven by line-in, minimize the delay, when playing to multiple speakers, add the delay. There wouldn't need to be any option exposed in the UI. With the proposed improvement, the Sonos would be just as good as all our other random speakers when driven by a Chromecast Audio, rather than unusably inferior to those speakers in this use case.
It sounds like the forthcoming Airplay 2 support may provide another way to do have Sonos play together with non-Sonos speakers, which is exciting.
I think you guys shouldn't just focus on the mixing idea. Sure, it's quite uncommen for a use case... BUT... I personally bought the Play5 to connect it via Line-In to my computer. Gaming, watching videos, editing... NOT POSSIBLE. The Line-In was the reason for the Play5 in the frist place.
There has to be a way to direct the sound signal immediately to the speaker without delay IF you dont want to stream to other speakers too.
SONOS should warn about the delay when advertising the Line-In Option. Otherwise other people with the same idea get dissapointed. Like me.
Please help & sorry for upping the old post.
Im going to add a Me Too on this one. I want to be able to use my Play:5 with my mixer but the audio delay is a problem when mixing tracks. No delay option would be great.
Yep! Totally correct Ratty, thanks! The design flaw is in the communications design. That is, none of us here knew that this ‘feature’ would disable needed functionality at purchase. That means it is a design flaw since it is not clearly stated, and a design flaw in that it is unnecessary for standalone speaker setups with line in being used.
You’re changing your argument. No where in your previous post did you imply that the issue was with communicating product features. And referring to communication as a ‘design’ is just trying to bridge the gap from your old argument to the new.
While I understand that people want to know everything that a product does or does not do before purchase, it’s not exactly fair to expect a company to provide a list of everything that their product doesn’t do. Even if they did provide such an extensive list, people would still complain that the company should have done a better job of dispelling their assumption.
There also the fact that communication is marketing, which should be about putting your product in a positive light, rather than highlighting everything the product can’t do. I personally would be turned off by an extensive list of things a product can’t do, even if it wasn’t a feature I don’t need. I end up playing the ‘what if’ game, when reality is that I really don’t care about latency issues in 99% of my uses...like 99% of other customers (not real statistics here).
If you spend any amount of time on here, you will see that people make assumption about what Sonos, as well as other AV equipment, can and cannot do, often highly inaccurate. The good news is that we live in an age where you can easily do some research and ask questions through the internet before making a purchase rather than relying on assumptions or what’s printed on the box.
And absolutely, make suggestions on product improvements. There is a big difference between wanted a new feature and demanding it and claiming it’s a design flaw with nothing to back your assertion.
As I see it, Sonos needs to own this ‘feature’ and state it clearly, or fix it for a substantial number of users. In that sense, it is a design issue. At the very least, it needs to design its communications to serve its users.
I never would have purchased my sonos 5 (nor perhaps would many on this thread, I assume) had I known of this design ‘feature’.
So why didn’t you return it?
I have checked the product FAQ here, and nowhere does it state Aux line in has latency. Confusingly, it does state it for TV. https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/five.html
What Sonos could do is simply change their FAQ. Or perhaps fix the issue. Sorry if the above was confusing.
Just for reference here are some other common incorrect assumptions that are made:
- Sonos can play in sync with Amazon, Google, or any other smart speaker products
- Because Sonos has WiFi, and so is your PC, Sonos can play any audio on your PC
- You can pair different speaker models to form a stereo pair (example - Sonos Five and Sonos One)
- You can use a Soundbar as a center channel and add speaker to the front left and right.
- You can do 7.1 or 9.1 home theatre audio
- Sonos can play any home theatre codec
- When you connect 2 pairs of speakers to the Amp and they will play 4 different audio channels.
- All Sonos speakers have bluetooth, because bluetooth = wireless
- Other speaker makers support their products forever.
- Sonos voice assistant (Alexa and Google) has all the features of echo and minis
- The Sonos app plays the audio and sends it your speakers.
- The hardware on old Sonos speakers is irrelevant, because all the processing can be done on your phone or other speaker.
- Sonos decides what features are available for streaming services in the Sonos app, not the streaming service provider.
- Surround sound is the same audio coming from the front and the rear.
- HDMI and HDMI ARC/eARC are the same thing.
- You can stereo pair Move and Roam over bluetooth
Userlevel 7
+23
I think Sonos should just add a disclaimer to their marketing pages that says “Sonos do not recommend use for live music sources such as DJ or karaoke, or with projectors that lack eARC” which would save us all a lot of time here on the forums reading through enormous threads like this that will never change anything.
I'm going to add another bump to say I'd like this. For the same reasons as the OP. I'm also going to give my 2 cents.
I know SONOS likely won't do this, so I'm looking at other solutions. But I figured, I can request it.
I own a SONOS beam, and when i use it with the line in from the TV it stays almost perfectly in sync. Or at least close enough for me. If there is a 30 ms delay, I hardly notice it, and it is WAY better than the 70 ms delay on the rest of my speakers. However, the beam stays out of sync from the rest of the house when using the line in, because the rest of the house is on that 70ms delay. All of this makes sense so far to me. The delay to keep the house in sync is perfectly acceptable.
I think the ask, is that the play 5 be able to, locally, by itself, when not pushing out to the rest of the house, be able to have a reduced delay for a standalone mode. I would buy a play:5 tomorrow if that were the case. As it is, I have a dj controller that is hooked up to some really really terrible, old computer speakers. But there is no delay on them. All of the rest of my house speakers are Sonos.
The beam works with little delay. This same functionality for the play:5 would be great. If it gets grouped with other speakers, it can switch to the 70 ms delay. That would be fine by me. When my beam is grouped with other speakers, it shares their delay and that makes sense.
This would be no more confusing to consumers than it currently is, because as it currently stands, the average consumer doesn't deal with this issue. And when they do, as this thread shows, they run into confusion. This would eliminate some of that confusion, and to the rest of the people that don't want this functionality, it simply would not affect them.
I wonder if I can figure out a way to feed my DJ controller into the beam. Does anyone know how well that solution may work?
I know SONOS likely won't do this, so I'm looking at other solutions. But I figured, I can request it.
I own a SONOS beam, and when i use it with the line in from the TV it stays almost perfectly in sync. Or at least close enough for me. If there is a 30 ms delay, I hardly notice it, and it is WAY better than the 70 ms delay on the rest of my speakers. However, the beam stays out of sync from the rest of the house when using the line in, because the rest of the house is on that 70ms delay. All of this makes sense so far to me. The delay to keep the house in sync is perfectly acceptable.
I think the ask, is that the play 5 be able to, locally, by itself, when not pushing out to the rest of the house, be able to have a reduced delay for a standalone mode. I would buy a play:5 tomorrow if that were the case. As it is, I have a dj controller that is hooked up to some really really terrible, old computer speakers. But there is no delay on them. All of the rest of my house speakers are Sonos.
The beam works with little delay. This same functionality for the play:5 would be great. If it gets grouped with other speakers, it can switch to the 70 ms delay. That would be fine by me. When my beam is grouped with other speakers, it shares their delay and that makes sense.
This would be no more confusing to consumers than it currently is, because as it currently stands, the average consumer doesn't deal with this issue. And when they do, as this thread shows, they run into confusion. This would eliminate some of that confusion, and to the rest of the people that don't want this functionality, it simply would not affect them.
I wonder if I can figure out a way to feed my DJ controller into the beam. Does anyone know how well that solution may work?
This stated earlier in the thread, but the idea that the Tech need for the Five to be ‘no delay’ already exists in the HT equipment isn’t true. The Five has an analog input, while the HT devices have digital inputs. That means that the Five would need to convert from analog to digital without delay, or have some sort of bypass mode (analog input to analog speakers) that hardware may not support. I don’t know. Regardless, that analog mode would only work when the speaker isn’t playing with any other speaker in the system. No stereo pairs or sub.
As it happens conversion A-D or D-A is almost instant.
Like all Sonos players the Five has a digital audio pipeline, including decode, volume, EQ and crossover, plus of course Trueplay digital room correction. There can’t be an analog bypass. Notwithstanding the network buffer there will be FIFOs in there which introduce slight delay. (Witness the sync problems some users have with AV receivers which do the same.)
Sonos simply wasn’t engineered for zero latency. It didn’t need to be.
Userlevel 1
after reading through this whole thread it’s surprising seeing the dismissal from other users that no latency line-in is some far fetched idea.
for decades on almost any speaker purchased there has been no (noticeable) latency on a physical line-in.
it’s logical to assume there won’t be latency when using line-in on speakers.
it’s illogical to assume there will be latency on a line-in no matter what your use case, in general.
i do not think Sonos is going to do a thing about this, but i think the solution is simple … no need for a toggle (although i’d prefer one for quick switching if needed). but for simplicities sake (since some of you think people will be confused with the option to do this) any UNGROUPed speaker using a physical input (HDMI/Optical/Line-In) it defaults to no latency mode. the moment it’s grouped or used wirelessly, then the latency is introduced.
why does a physically connected single speaker need to introduce a buffer to sync up audio if it’s not grouped with any other speakers? it makes no sense.
i think if a user was reading about audio latency issues they were having with their speakers, it would make complete sense that a delay is introduced when being used wirelessly or in a group so the system could be in sync.
Sonos simply wasn’t engineered for zero latency. It didn’t need to be.
Indeed, it needed not to be.
To engineer a 'direct path' for delay-sensitive content via Line-In played solely on a local device would be a significant distraction of effort for a limited use case...
But more fundamentally, Sonos have already addressed the requirement for low latency with TV sound, in the shape of the purpose-designed PLAYBAR. Modern TVs often no longer offer analog outputs anyway, only optical.
I bet if we through a vote, at least 30 to 50% of the current Play:5 owners would vote for that functionality and will use it.
I have Play:5 on my computer table. I bought Play:5 solely for the reason that it would allow me to play through Line-in, otherwise, I would get 2 Play:1s as I've already have in a living room. I planned to use it 50/50 as wireless player/computer speaker. As described above, the Sonos Manual/FAQ is not very clear on a remaining delay even after all the recommended settings adjusted.
I really don't think it would take a lot of engineering since you just have to get rid of additional protections and let it pass through as is without considering sync, latency, and other limitations. I assume it's a marketing resistance from Sonos that is concerned about a possible decline in sales of other products that are able to do that.
Finally, Playbar would look weird on the computer table, and I don't have enough space to put it there.
Does it work as advertised? - Yes!
Could it be improved without serious hassle? - For sure.
It's a hardware that is being run by software. If I don't need it to communicate with other speakers in particular scenario, you can easily cut half of the measures that were put in the software to make it work in sync. That would reduce, if not eliminate the latency.
It reminds me of Xbox One early days when it refused to work without an active internet connection even with the single player games. Microsoft realized the issue and fixed it. Sonos just doesn't want to bother. And I can't blame them - it's all business. Just don't insist that it is theoretically impossible with the existing hardware.
+1 to wanting this. my setup: I have my entire house using a sono network of speakers. in my office , i have a play5. sometimes i use this in the network. and love the buffering and the delay is invisible. other times, i just want it to be a speaker in my office. not on the network.
i have a set of digital drum kits in my office. it’s my man cave. sometimes i just want to play the drums. since *all* of the speakers in my house are sonos… i just want to use the play5 already there in my office. via line in. with zero delay .
when you play the drums .. 75ms doesn’t work. it needs to be zero delay .
sounds like i now need to buy 2 speakers. one in the office for the “network play” .. and one in the office as a plane jane speaker.
as a sonos whole house customers.. sure would be nice to use that speaker in “stand alone” mode. turn of all the fancy stacks. just pipe the music from line in, to the single speaker. don’t rewrite all the software. just have a very simply mode of “ zero delay” that only works with one speaker, from it’s line in.
i would love that :)
Userlevel 1
You're going to have to explain how a latency of even 10 seconds is remotely a problem when playing an LP through a single Play 5?
When you want to use them for mixing. I understand why you may need this latency for streaming between speakers, but I feel that a flagship product like the play 5 should have the option to remove this latency, just like how the tv bar works. I would love to just use the tv bar, but it has no line in. I love sonos, but I do feel their products hold back features unfairly
Userlevel 1
Looking online it seems like so many people share the same complaint, such a shame 😞
There’s probably nothing that has not been said already. But I’m going to chime in anyhow.
I would also really like the no-latency standalone mode. The implementation could be very transparent: no delay on the line-in when not paired, the usual (configurable) 75ms~2000ms delay when paired with any other speaker. That would allow users of TV’s, computer speakers & DJ gear to use their great Sonos speakers to double as direct play speakers and completely replace the legacy systems. This would increase their footing in the industry they actually focus on: To be the prime audio system for the entire home. (Voice assistant, multi-room, streaming, local libraries)
Of course, the way wifi and streaming works, you can not remove the delay in all scenarios. That’s a fact of physics. But that does not mean other customers should vote against this idea while a lot of other users would love to see it. This is a great chance for Sonos, not a threat.
Please let the amount of votes & replies on this thread speak for itself.
Just to add clarification, Sonos already has speakers that can be used for TVs. The Beam, Arc, and Amp. The Move has bluetooth.
The three devices that have line-in capability are the Amp, Port, and Five. As mentioned already, the Amp has the ARC port for no delay/TV audio. The Port is usually used with a 3rd party amp that will likely have an input itself without delay. So this feature you’re asking for would likely be used with the Five only. I’m not sure why Sonos would want to make a no delay mode, to use with a TV, when they already have devices for TV use.
The other negative of this is that it would add some confusion to an already too complex, IMO, system. When in this no delay mode, would grouping be disabled? Would you need to remove the mode in order to group? Would grouping be allowed, but grouped speakers delayed, as it currently is for TV audio?
I am not against the idea, and likely would use it myself, but I definitely see reasons why Sonos hasn’t done it. As far as the amount of replies, ~120 in 4 years doesn’t say a lot. Granted, these are not people who buy if the feature existed, but more people who bought Sonos without realizing the feature wasn’t there.
Would just like to add my support to this request. The home mixing use case is certainly not niche. A zero latency option to enable a home DJ to stream their mixes out of their DJ mixer or controller into just one (or all) of their Sonos speakers is certainly something I feel a LOT of users would find beneficial.
I would also hasten to add the irony of paying DJ A-Trak to advertise Sonos equipment that he clearly cannot use as part of his DJ set up. It doesn't seem like a huge ask if I'm honest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7_BF_Qh-t4
Have you guys thought about teaming up with the likes of Pioneer, Native Instruments or Serato to integrate some kind of work around in their software to tap into the DJ community. I think the popularity of trade shows like NAMM prove Its a growing market. I would love to somehow have a one system suits all use cases scenario like a traditional amplifier used to offer. 😞
I would also hasten to add the irony of paying DJ A-Trak to advertise Sonos equipment that he clearly cannot use as part of his DJ set up. It doesn't seem like a huge ask if I'm honest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7_BF_Qh-t4
Have you guys thought about teaming up with the likes of Pioneer, Native Instruments or Serato to integrate some kind of work around in their software to tap into the DJ community. I think the popularity of trade shows like NAMM prove Its a growing market. I would love to somehow have a one system suits all use cases scenario like a traditional amplifier used to offer. 😞
I’d like to cast another vote for option of no delay. I use playbar for karaoke but lag prevents from being good. I was looking into play 5 as I read aux in generally achieve less lag compared to optical cable. Since one of Sonos sales point seems like it is for everyone for different situations, I think if this is truly software thing, it would add yet another argument for Sonos providing more options for another group of audience.
.. I think we all understand 'why' Sonos has latency, your point has been mentioned many times throughout this thread, the point is understood and valid only from the use of wanting to sync to other speakers.
Surely playing multi room in perfect sync is the entire point of the Sonos system… That’s what is was designed for and it’s how it’s sold. Anyone who thinks differently clearly didn’t do enough research before they bought it.
Some here and myself are not interested in always syncing music, but using the speaker as a simple standalone speaker via the line in.
So buy something more appropriate to your needs…
We're asking for the option to reduce or remove the latency simply and purely for direct local use of the speaker (musicians use).
As far as I’m aware, Sonos kit has never been advertised as suitable for studio use
Personally, I have no strong feelings about it, and certainly don’t object to it being made available, but criticising Sonos for not doing something that they never, ever said that it could do is unreasonable.
‘Design flaw’? Bug? It is absolutely key to the design of the Sonos system. I imagine you only have Sonos in one room? If you are going to be calling the helpdesk frequently about this, prepare yourself for repeated disappointment.
#MeToo, even if I understand Sonos not wanting to address this advanced corner case. Perhaps a Sonos "jailbreak" will make it possible one day.
One lip-sync workaround when watching movies is to use the negative audio delay setting of the media player, when available. E.g. VLC and Kodi have such a feature on TV boxes.
One lip-sync workaround when watching movies is to use the negative audio delay setting of the media player, when available. E.g. VLC and Kodi have such a feature on TV boxes.
I do not fully understand why line-in would require latency.
I really do suggest you read the thread from the top.
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