After years of resistance, I now have a TV in the patio dedicated to music videos, to be played there and streamed to other Sonos zones indoors. I am seeing the group break up often, even where all the concerned Sonos units have solid green signal strengths back to Boost.
Line is set to uncompressed; both compressed and the choosing the Airplay device trick does not seem to work; the latter does not fix the lip sync problem caused by the former.
The TV is connected to a Connect in the patio, which is used to initiate a group with the 2 other zones indoors, which are also closer to the Boost than the patio Connect. Often, and usually when I choose to change the video being played, these two drop while remaining as a group, leaving the patio Connect playing on its own. When I add the Connect back to these groups, play resumes on all three zones, and, I suspect, in a more stable manner.
Any ideas as to solutions? If I wanted to wire an ethernet cable from the Patio to the router what would I have to do - one end would go into the jack on the Connect, and the other back to the jack on the Boost? Would that solve the problem?
PS: The TV is connected from its audio analog line outs to the Connect Line in.
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.
Page 2 / 3
They use point-to-point 5GHz locally to surrounds/sub, and can therefore manage to reduce buffer size to ~30ms. However for grouped play with other rooms they're back onto 2.4GHz, with the ~75ms buffer. Grouped rooms are therefore slightly behind.
It's also been observed that a lightweight lossy compression is applied to TV audio sent to grouped rooms, though I've not checked this out myself.
I appreciate that your matrix tunnels are green, but what about the column on the left?
To complete the story: how do the Sonos AV products do this successfully then? Via 5 ghz?
Ok, so that tells me why "Airplay device" messes the TV experience; and the fact that the uncompressed shallow buffer is there to maintain lipsync gives a sort of indirect explanation for the "TV audio is heavy" parroting that seems to be common. It is only heavy because to achieve lip sync not required with other sources, the buffer has to be shallow, making the source heavy in relative terms.
The Boost Connect daisy chain experiment worked well only for a short time; stuttering resurfaced.
Hopefully, the patch cable solution works and I can then install a permanent one between the Connect and the core network.
The Boost Connect daisy chain experiment worked well only for a short time; stuttering resurfaced.
Hopefully, the patch cable solution works and I can then install a permanent one between the Connect and the core network.
Uncompressed has a shallow 75ms buffer, to try and maintain lipsync. Compressed is a couple of seconds. 'Airplay Device' with Uncompressed uses a 500ms buffer. With Compressed it possibly adds another half second to the two secs.
If daisy-chaining the Connect off the Boost fixes things it suggests that either the Connect's WiFi card is not performing as well as the Boost (Boost is better tech anyway) or the unit is somehow in a less than favourable position.
If daisy-chaining the Connect off the Boost fixes things it suggests that either the Connect's WiFi card is not performing as well as the Boost (Boost is better tech anyway) or the unit is somehow in a less than favourable position.
I suppose if it was not shallow, it would mess up the lip sync.
But the comment about "weak and old Connect" made me do another experiment that started promisingly, but failed to show much change. I wired a Boost to the Connect LAN port, and after making the Play 1 revert to root bridge, the matrix showed me:
- Boost communicating to Play 1 as a secondary node, in green
- Connect as a tertiary node, but all grey across its tunnel
- All other units communicating like the Boost in 1 above, all in green.
I think pwt has it right - this is less a bandwidth and more a shallow buffer issue. Why does it have to be shallow? And by the way, designating the line in source as Airplay device did not work because it did not address the lip sync issue.
We've already accounted for the Sonos employee's response. Their script could well say "buy a Beam etc" for TV.
If you think otherwise, I'd like to understand your argument.
I don't know. I presume if I were a Sonos employee I'd be in the know.
This being the internet, this discussion could get sidetracked onto whether TV audio signals are different in some "subjective" way from other line-level analog audio. Let's not.
Userlevel 7
+20
So if at all, the TV output is "lighter", but I am sure that this attribute isn't what the Support chap meant. So, what DID he mean?
How does the Connect even know that this is from a TV??
The input voltage level is relevant to the audio volume, but is irrelevant to the WAV encoding and to the bandwidth requirement. It is neither lighter nor heavier. Complete silence still uses the full bandwidth.
The Connect has no way of determining from what device it's receiving an input signal.
TV audio is indeed no different from any other audio as far as Line-In is concerned. Analog signals arrive. They're digitised as PCM (if Uncompressed) and packetised for transmission. No increased "heaviness" at all.
@Kumar's response from front line support was surely the standard "you should be using a Beam, Playbar, etc." for TV.
@Kumar's response from front line support was surely the standard "you should be using a Beam, Playbar, etc." for TV.
As far as I understand this, the input at the line in is nothing more than a signal voltage. And in this case, the TV manual specifies this to be 0.5 volts rms. Which is on the low side compared to that from CD players or DACs that have more than a volt rms.
So if at all, the TV output is "lighter", but I am sure that this attribute isn't what the Support chap meant. So, what DID he mean?
How does the Connect even know that this is from a TV??
So if at all, the TV output is "lighter", but I am sure that this attribute isn't what the Support chap meant. So, what DID he mean?
How does the Connect even know that this is from a TV??
Userlevel 7
+20
How, though? TV audio is 100% identical in nature to any other analog line level audio source presented at a Sonos Line-In input. The bandwidth requirements for Uncompressed audio distribution are identical, and the buffering is identical.
If you think otherwise, I'd like to understand your argument.
My experience on the German board told me that TV audio is indeed "heavier" than other Line-In sources, it tends to cut out quickly and more frequently. Neither the Connect nor the Play:5 is designed to meet this challenge.
Userlevel 7
+20
Respectfully, I didn't say you did.
I'm well aware of the nature of the 'Uncompressed' stream. Note that dropout problems are normally not due to the bandwidth required, but are due to the very shallow 75ms buffer that is used for 'Uncompressed'.
I didn't say otherwise. However, uncompressed audio is .wav, and .wav is demanding bandwidth.
Userlevel 7
+20
To
I have no trouble sending Uncompressed audio across my Sonos systems. Some of the players are wired, some are not, but they are arranged carefully to provide universally good signal paths.
Uncompressed PCM (TV audio) has a transfer rate/speed of 1.411,2 kbps, Spotify of 320 kbps. You would need to wire every unit involved to the router or an ethernet switch to avoid the TV audio being cutting out.
I received what to me is a strange reply from Sonos Support, copy pasted below:
"The TV signal is much "heavier" then the radio, Spotify, etc. signal and since the Connect is old devices, can struggle to send the signal to other rooms on time. In general the Connect never been design to play music from the TV."
I have asked for clarification because I don't understand how the signal from the RCA audio output jack pair from the TV is any different from that of a CD player or a Turntable, in terms of "heaviness".
"The TV signal is much "heavier" then the radio, Spotify, etc. signal and since the Connect is old devices, can struggle to send the signal to other rooms on time. In general the Connect never been design to play music from the TV."
I have asked for clarification because I don't understand how the signal from the RCA audio output jack pair from the TV is any different from that of a CD player or a Turntable, in terms of "heaviness".
Yes, will do; I will first run a test with a patch cable before installing a permanent one properly, if the test goes well. I can't see any reason for there to be stuttering then as long as the source stream is glitch free, but the effort of a permanent wire install makes the test necessary.
Compressed is a no no - even for music videos, the consequent lip sync issues ruin the experience.
Compressed is a no no - even for music videos, the consequent lip sync issues ruin the experience.
Ah that’s fine then Kumar, I wasn’t sure whether, or not, the 'Connect' was outputting audio to a Receiver at the same time.
Hope the cabling option solves the matter. I have seen it before where some folk have to use compressed audio and/or the AirPlay workaround for their setups, whilst others, like me, seem to get away with uncompressed and timely audio. It must be something to de with the network and signal, so cabling some things might prove to be the answer for you, hopefully.
Let me know how it goes.
Hope the cabling option solves the matter. I have seen it before where some folk have to use compressed audio and/or the AirPlay workaround for their setups, whilst others, like me, seem to get away with uncompressed and timely audio. It must be something to de with the network and signal, so cabling some things might prove to be the answer for you, hopefully.
Let me know how it goes.
The TV audio is diverted to the Connect line in to also be able to use an amp+outdoor speakers for better sound in the Patio, and that part works fine, including autoplay; indeed, this also confirms to me that there is no issue with that part of the signal including the integrity of the Line In jacks on the Connect, the issue lies elsewhere in its propagation wirelessly to other Sonos speakers.
But even if the Patio Connect was to be a dumb device just for propagation to other Sonos speakers, the issue I am facing with those speakers stuttering would still exist, I reckon.
But even if the Patio Connect was to be a dumb device just for propagation to other Sonos speakers, the issue I am facing with those speakers stuttering would still exist, I reckon.
No worries Kumar.. hope you get it working.
Before I do go, I’m just curious about one further thing. Are you just using the line-in on your connect from the TV? If so, there’s no actual need to 'Group' your Connect with the other rooms... you just play the streamed audio through your TV (as usual) and then output (via the Connect line-in) to your 'other' Sonos Rooms. (No need to include the Connect in the Sonos group)
Obviously if the Connect is linked to a Receiver/Speakers for some other output purpose, then you may wish to group it in that case, but you haven’t mentioned a Receiver, if I remember correctly, so there’s perhaps no need to include the Connect room in your Sonos group, if that what you were doing?
Hope that makes sense.
Before I do go, I’m just curious about one further thing. Are you just using the line-in on your connect from the TV? If so, there’s no actual need to 'Group' your Connect with the other rooms... you just play the streamed audio through your TV (as usual) and then output (via the Connect line-in) to your 'other' Sonos Rooms. (No need to include the Connect in the Sonos group)
Obviously if the Connect is linked to a Receiver/Speakers for some other output purpose, then you may wish to group it in that case, but you haven’t mentioned a Receiver, if I remember correctly, so there’s perhaps no need to include the Connect room in your Sonos group, if that what you were doing?
Hope that makes sense.
The streaming AV source works fine; 40 mbps is a lot more than enough for HD streams of Netflix and the like. The concern is if this interferes with the outgoing from Connect audio stream, something that your Connect does not have to deal with.
I will see what Sonos Support - who are being somewhat tardy - says before buying the wire that will be needed to wire the Connect to the router.
Thanks for all your inputs, Ken; much appreciated.
I will see what Sonos Support - who are being somewhat tardy - says before buying the wire that will be needed to wire the Connect to the router.
Thanks for all your inputs, Ken; much appreciated.
Page 2 / 3
Enter your username or e-mail address. We'll send you an e-mail with instructions to reset your password.