17 years on and still no solution to AV Amp delays!

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50 replies

K

Because the Sony amp, along with many other AV systems, is designed such that the video output is always lip synced with the TV picture, changing from surround to direct modes does not affect the audio delay.

 

There is something about the above that does not seem right, or I am missing something...

Are you suggesting that where using the stereo mode on an AVR to get it to sync with Sonos - and most  AVR kit usually does that well if said mode is there as a feature - lip sync is thrown out of whack in a discernible way? 

I have not heard of that con till now as the price to be paid for perfect audio sync. I suspect that for lip sync to be affected, more milliseconds are needed than those needed to be eliminated to get rid of the echo.

melvimbe

Similar comment could be made with respect to the SONY A/V. Why does it need to add a delay?

The delay is caused by the software processing needed to generate the 5 or 7 surround sound signals from the original stereo. 

If the source is stereo, use the direct/bypass mode on the Sony Amp, to avoid the processing delay on the Sony A/V Amp? 

 

According to the OP, direct mode makes no difference.  I find that strange. Perhaps to all the fractions correctly identified by @ratty we should add 'the fraction of A/V amps for which the problem cannot be solved by flipping a switch'?

 

I read it as direct mode does resolve the issue, but then neighbor can’t have the A/V receiver process the audio to create artificial surround sound channels, as desired.  Also seems as though they don’t want to toggle direct mode on and off when switching between  TV audio and audio coming from the Port. 

That’s all understandable, but I don’t really see that as a problem that Sonos needs to address.    While it does appear to only effect a fraction of Sonos customers, those tiny few who would take advantage of it are not any more likely to buy Sonos hardware for it.  I mean, those who have this issue aren’t going to buy Sonos HT equipment, because Sonos would have just made it easier not to, and because the desired feature of simulated surround sound isn’t something Sonos offers.  Would a customer decide not to go with Sonos for wireless home audio for this reason?  Doubtful.

So I would think Sonos would spend more dev effort increasing their functionality in home theatre, rather than easier to use someone elses products.  However, I don’t see them ever doing simulated surround sound from stereo input.

Danny
buzz

We are moving toward object oriented audio where an instrument can be assigned an apparent location in three dimensions.

With respect to latencies (delays) it’s 30ms for the surround Room and 75ms for Grouped Rooms. If you Group TV audio in a surround Room, it will be about 45ms ahead of the Group. At the cost of some lip sync you can add some delay in the surround Room in order to better align it with other members of the Group.

T
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Similar comment could be made with respect to the SONY A/V. Why does it need to add a delay?

The delay is caused by the software processing needed to generate the 5 or 7 surround sound signals from the original stereo. 

If the source is stereo, use the direct/bypass mode on the Sony Amp, to avoid the processing delay on the Sony A/V Amp? 

 

Ok, I’ve been back and worked through all the settings again. Setting the Sonos input on the Sony Amp to Direct mode does reduce the delay to an acceptable level. But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.

C
Userlevel 6
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Similar comment could be made with respect to the SONY A/V. Why does it need to add a delay?

The delay is caused by the software processing needed to generate the 5 or 7 surround sound signals from the original stereo. 

If the source is stereo, use the direct/bypass mode on the Sony Amp, to avoid the processing delay on the Sony A/V Amp? 

 

Ok, I’ve been back and worked through all the settings again. Setting the Sonos input on the Sony Amp to Direct mode does reduce the delay to an acceptable level. But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

K

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

K

I am sure I can serve out the rest of my life with 2 channel stereo for music without hankering for more channels, but this has been interesting. Where does MQA fit into all this?

106rallye
Userlevel 7
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@craigski You state “But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.” On my old Marantz (if I remember it correctly) the “Direct” setting worked per source. So you would only lose the surround features on the Sonos (that is stereo anyway). 

C
Userlevel 6
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@craigski You state “But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.” On my old Marantz (if I remember it correctly) the “Direct” setting worked per source. So you would only lose the surround features on the Sonos (that is stereo anyway). 

I didn’t state that, it was OP 😀

K

 On my old Marantz (if I remember it correctly) the “Direct” setting worked per source. So you would only lose the surround features on the Sonos (that is stereo anyway). 

This must have been a convenience feature to avoid having to select direct where the source selected was the Sonos device wired to the AVR. You would, I expect, still get only the two front L/R speakers wired to the Marantz firing in this mode, but in perfect sync with any Sonos speaker in the same group as the Connect/Port wired to the Marantz.

ratty

Where does MQA fit into all this?

Nowhere, I hope. It seems many have now written it off. Were you just casting around for all the music technologies you can safely ignore?

K

Yes/no! Since I remembered it in the context of Meridian, I was wondering if that folds into this stuff in some manner.

melvimbe

We are moving toward object oriented audio where an instrument can be assigned an apparent location in three dimensions.

Yes, but in my opinion, it makes a big difference whether the audio was produced for object orient audio, or just two channel audio that a dsp passes through an algorithm to have audio come from locations that were never really intended during production.

 

 

Danny
melvimbe

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

 

 

The source of audio to the AVR in this case is the Port, not TV.  There are no lips to sync with.

 

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

I suppose their could be dialogue, such as podcast or what not streaming through the Port and Sonos network in general, but I really don’t think there would be a need to activate the center channel for these stereo sources.

 

Danny
T
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But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

 

 

The source of audio to the AVR in this case is the Port, not TV.  There are no lips to sync with.

 

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

I suppose their could be dialogue, such as podcast or what not streaming through the Port and Sonos network in general, but I really don’t think there would be a need to activate the center channel for these stereo sources.

 

A surround sound processor operating in a mode such as Meridian’s Trifield put common L & R sounds through the centre speaker, leaving L or R specific sounds on their respective channels. Thus anything centre stage, usually a singer or speaker comes out only on the centre speaker. The effect of this is that vocals are much cleaner and it reduces the criticality of the stereo ‘sweet spot’. Both people sat on the sofa get good vocals! Basically it reduces the audio clutter produced by sending the same sounds to independent L & R speakers. Its why I prefer stereo music played through a surround sound system.

melvimbe

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

 

 

The source of audio to the AVR in this case is the Port, not TV.  There are no lips to sync with.

 

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

I suppose their could be dialogue, such as podcast or what not streaming through the Port and Sonos network in general, but I really don’t think there would be a need to activate the center channel for these stereo sources.

 

A surround sound processor operating in a mode such as Meridian’s Trifield put common L & R sounds through the centre speaker, leaving L or R specific sounds on their respective channels. Thus anything centre stage, usually a singer or speaker comes out only on the centre speaker. The effect of this is that vocals are much cleaner and it reduces the criticality of the stereo ‘sweet spot’. Both people sat on the sofa get good vocals! Basically it reduces the audio clutter produced by sending the same sounds to independent L & R speakers. Its why I prefer stereo music played through a surround sound system.

 

I get the idea, it’s just seems that a center channel for clear dialogue seems less important for stereo music than for TV watching.

Danny
K

 

 

The source of audio to the AVR in this case is the Port, not TV.  There are no lips to sync with.

 

 

 

Indeed, and a full on duh moment for me. I was lulled down a wrong lane by my use case where lip sync matters - I have a Connect receiving TV audio via line in, feeding a stereo amp connected to two quality speakers and a sub in my patio. And for parties, the sound can be piped around the house to other Sonos units as well, in perfect sync including lip-sync with both TV video and streamed or NAS music from Connect as a source. All that is needed for this to work flawlessly is for all Sonos units to be ethernet wired to the core network to allow stable grouped play with delays set to the minimum, a requirement for lip sync when the TV audio is a feed.

For a plain vanilla set up of Connect to AVR where the former is a source of music, lip sync, as quoted, is indeed irrelevant.

But the OP makes an interesting point about the centre channel still being useful in such cases; I have never tried out that to comment on whether that brings about an improvement in the music listening experience because the last time I used an AVR was a couple of decades ago. I realised then that a full wired HT set up was more clutter than what the added audio effects were worth; my TV sound improved enough for my needs by just a stereo amp and two quality front speakers, and that has remained my TV approach since then. If I want to watch Top Gun/Maverick in all its glory - which is a rare need - I go to the multiplex nearby.

K

Interesting, and this was my finding when I was seeing if I can usefully deploy a spare play 1 unit a year ago. In my Connect Amp + Quad 11L stereo listening zone, I placed the 1 unit at the centre between the Quad speaker pair, and grouped it with the Connect Amp. It took me some time to get both at the same sound levels, but when I then sat back and did some critical listening, all I found was that the music was louder - no change perceived in sound stage or music quality. Since the Connect Amp has enough headroom on its volume control in that space, louder was no benefit, and I put the 1 unit in a drawer where it still languishes.

I don’t think that any fancier tech than what this little experiment contained will bring about noticeable change to the listening experience in my space.

T
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Interesting, and this was my finding when I was seeing if I can usefully deploy a spare play 1 unit a year ago. In my Connect Amp + Quad 11L stereo listening zone, I placed the 1 unit at the centre between the Quad speaker pair, and grouped it with the Connect Amp. It took me some time to get both at the same sound levels, but when I then sat back and did some critical listening, all I found was that the music was louder - no change perceived in sound stage or music quality. Since the Connect Amp has enough headroom on its volume control in that space, louder was no benefit, and I put the 1 unit in a drawer where it still languishes.

I don’t think that any fancier tech than what this little experiment contained will bring about noticeable change to the listening experience in my space.

If I understand correctly, this setup with the extra Play:1 means that the Connect Amp will be correctly splitting out Left and Right stereo signal to the Quad speakers. But the Play:1 will be playing both the left and right signals combined into a single Mono channel. So placing the Play:1 between the two Quad speakers will just mess up the stereo image as you will now have the Left only sounds coming from both the Left speaker and the central Play:1. Right only sounds will come from both the right and centre. Depending on volume levels, I guess this would sound like a wide mono stage? Certainly not an improved stereo stage.

The problem with a 2 channel ‘stereo’ setup is that centre stage sounds come from both left and right speakers. Hence if you are not sat exactly equidistant from both speakers then the sound stage is distorted.

A Trifield or similar effect produced by an AV amp, results in sounds from the left of the stage coming only from the left speaker, sounds from the centre only coming from the centre speaker and right stage sounds only coming from the right speaker. The result is that the centre sound is ‘cleaner’ and the sound stage is less listening position dependant.

Its not quite as simple as that as the centre speaker is usually a small unit that has poor bass response. So the AV amp leaves bass on the left and right channels. Or sends it to a separate subwoofer; which allows smaller, less obtrusive left and right speakers as well (often preferred by ‘the other half’ sharing the sofa:-))

But ….. the software signal processing needed to produce this better ‘stereo’ sound stage results in the sound from the AV amp being delayed relative to acoustically close Sonos only systems. Which is why we need a function in the Sonos setup to provide a variable delay to compensate for the addition signal processing in the AV amp.

C
Userlevel 6
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A Trifield or similar effect produced by an AV amp, results in sounds from the left of the stage coming only from the left speaker, sounds from the centre only coming from the centre speaker and right stage sounds only coming from the right speaker. The result is that the centre sound is ‘cleaner’ and the sound stage is less listening position dependant.

Don’t forget the kitchen speaker. If it was in sync, you would also hear the other speakers from the Kitchen, so all of this would distort the ‘effect’ the Sony Amp is trying to synthesise.

 

K

If I understand correctly, this setup with the extra Play:1 means that the Connect Amp will be correctly splitting out Left and Right stereo signal to the Quad speakers. But the Play:1 will be playing both the left and right signals combined into a single Mono channel. So placing the Play:1 between the two Quad speakers will just mess up the stereo image as you will now have the Left only sounds coming from both the Left speaker and the central Play:1. Right only sounds will come from both the right and centre. Depending on volume levels, I guess this would sound like a wide mono stage? Certainly not an improved stereo stage.

 

A Trifield or similar effect produced by an AV amp, results in sounds from the left of the stage coming only from the left speaker, sounds from the centre only coming from the centre speaker and right stage sounds only coming from the right speaker. The result is that the centre sound is ‘cleaner’ and the sound stage is less listening position dependant.

 

I noticed no degradation of the sound stage/image caused by a single play 1 in the centre. Of that I am certain, ymmv. No improvement either. So I put it away.

As to the second para quoted, I can not comment, never having heard the outcome. But I doubt I will pursue that even if available, since my Quad pair does all that I need for good stereo sound in the space.

 

ratty

I can buy the argument for Trifield in a situation where listeners are off-axis. Where one is on-axis -- the ‘sweet spot’ -- adding a further transducer is likely to do more harm than good IMHO, given the need to maintain phase coherence and so forth. Certainly in any critical music listening I never feel the need to further anchor central sound images; they’re already there and pin-sharp.

K

I think this will depend on where the listening position is, when not ideal  in terms of the distance from the speaker plane. Where closer than ideal, this Trifield thing will help imaging where without it there may be a hole in the image at the centre. But where further than ideal, as is the case at my end with the listening distance to the speakers more than the distance between each speaker, it won’t make a difference.

T
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I think this will depend on where the listening position is, when not ideal  in terms of the distance from the speaker plane. Where closer than ideal, this Trifield thing will help imaging where without it there may be a hole in the image at the centre. But where further than ideal, as is the case at my end with the listening distance to the speakers more than the distance between each speaker, it won’t make a difference.

All I can talk from is my experience. I have 3 different systems in 3 different rooms. All are based on Meridian surround sound processors. All 3 started off as simple 2 speaker systems. Once I moved onto watching DVDs on one system and upgraded it to surround sound, there was no going back. Music, speech and everything else just sounds more convincing and lifelike.
Even on my office system which has a far from ideal speaker layout - my head is about 0.75m from the centre speaker - I enjoy the listening experience. 
But then I’m a ‘practicalist’ rather than a ‘purist’!

melvimbe

I think this will depend on where the listening position is, when not ideal  in terms of the distance from the speaker plane. Where closer than ideal, this Trifield thing will help imaging where without it there may be a hole in the image at the centre. But where further than ideal, as is the case at my end with the listening distance to the speakers more than the distance between each speaker, it won’t make a difference.

All I can talk from is my experience. I have 3 different systems in 3 different rooms. All are based on Meridian surround sound processors. All 3 started off as simple 2 speaker systems. Once I moved onto watching DVDs on one system and upgraded it to surround sound, there was no going back. Music, speech and everything else just sounds more convincing and lifelike.
Even on my office system which has a far from ideal speaker layout - my head is about 0.75m from the centre speaker - I enjoy the listening experience. 
But then I’m a ‘practicalist’ rather than a ‘purist’!

 

I’m not sure you can really call doing DSP to covert stereo signals to 3 or more signals always, even when it causes syncing issues in multiroom audio, as practical. 

Danny
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