Hi @Loz from Oz 

Welcome to the Sonos Community!

I’ll start with the important bit: latency. In order for TV audio and the picture to stay synchronised, the audio must be played with as little delay as possible. This rules out using a Five or Port, as these devices only have a standard analogue Line-In. To convert this analogue input to a digital stream and then prepare that stream for synchronised sharing on the network takes a minimum of 75ms - just about enough delay to be annoying, when also watching a picture on the TV. If your local network performance isn’t great, this delay may increase to as much as 2 seconds. Only after this buffering is done will the Five pass the audio signal to it’s own internal amplifiers, so the delay is present on the Five too. If this were not the case, synchronised multiroom playback would not be possible.

Sonos Ones cannot connect to a TV.

My recommendation to you, fitting your brief, is to get the Sonos Amp. As well as having Line-In (for your turntable, which should either have a pre-amp built-in or fitted between it and the Amp), it has an HDMI connection to be fitted to the HDMI-ARC port on your TV. Audio that would normally play on the TV, regardless of source, will be redirected to the Amp and the Amp will play it with minimum delay. This will give you 2.0 sound, which can be expanded to 4.1 at a later date, by adding a Sub and another Amp or a pair of Sonos One SLs, for example. The centre channel of 5.1 audio tracks will be fed to both of the speakers connected to the Amp, so no audio is lost. Additional speakers bonded to the Amp in the same Sonos “room” don’t suffer from the delays mentioned above. Any other room asked to play the TV audio fed to the Amp would lag behind, however.

The Amp supports Dolby Digital 5.1 and stereo PCM formats. DTS support is coming soon.

In addition, the Amp supports AirPlay, so you could link the output of a macOS or iOS device to the Amp for playback, but the delay may still be noticeable - this is the nature of networked devices, unfortunately. They are not really meant for live audio, and AirPlay is not meant for live performances.

An Amp will work with any pair of speakers with impedances of 4-8 Ohms, though only one pair of 4 Ohm speakers can be connected. Two pairs of 8 Ohms speakers can be connected, but only 2 channels will play from the Amp alone (each channel is duplicated). Only Sonance Architectural speakers will work with TruePlay.

Of course, if you opt for an Arc and a pair of One SLs for surround, and an Amp for music, you are not restricted to only playing the turntable through the Amp - it can be just as easily played to the Arc, even when the Amp isn’t playing.

Unfortunately, if you opt for a Arc for front sound and an Amp for rear surround, then the Amp’s Line-In will be disabled, so I don’t think this will be a configuration you’ll be happy with.

I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, please don’t hesitate.

To start with, I wouldn’t think of Sonos exactly in terms of ‘sets of speakers’.  It is a multiroom audio system.  The basic  building block is a speaker/device.  Speakers can then be bonded together to form a Sonos room.  Each room plays the same audio at the same volume.  So you can setup a pair of speakers as a room.  You can setup a soundbar, sub, and pair of speakers as a room.  You cannot bond any combination of speakers into a room, only the logical combinations that Sonos has essentially already predefined.    Once you have your rooms setup, you can temporarily group Sonos rooms together to play in sync (generally speaking).  Not sure if this is stuff you already know, but didn’t want to skip over some of the basics.

So to connect to a TV you need to start with an Arc, Beam or Amp.  Not only do these devices have the right port for TVs, but they also are built to play audio without delay to avoid lip sync issues.  That includes the speakers bonded in the same room.  (if you group TV audio with another room, there will be a slight delay in the other rooms)

To play music from a turntable, you’ll first need a preamp.  Maybe your turntable has that built in.  Then you want to connect to a device that has an aux input.  That’s a Port, Amp, or Five.  Audio connected to aux input is always delayed slightly, so it shouldn’t be used for TV audio.   And when you group to other rooms, the audio plays completely in sync.  

Every Sonos device can play internet streaming services, including Spotify.

So the common device for your first three requirements is an amp.  However, that, means you would need a pair of passive speakers, you will have a simulated center channel, and no atmos capabilities.  You could go with the Beam/Arc instead, then use a separate Port/Amp/Five for the turntable….you would be able to play turntable audio on your Beam/Arc.

For your fourth requirement, this sounds like the no delay requirement means you would also need an Arc/Beam/Amp.  However, these device don’t have two TV audio (no delay) inputs, and grouping to your Sonos room connected to the TV will introduce a delay.  There may be a way to use the same Arc/Beam/Amp for both TV and PC with some creative switching devices mixed in, but without knowing what sort of outputs your PC has, hard to really come up with a plan.  If you can output audio through HDMI for example, you could just plug that output as an input to your TV for example.

Thank you so much Corry P  and Danny for your generous, thorough and thoughtful responses!  I really appreciate it.  I do have a few follow up questions though!

So from what you’ve said Corry P, as Five or Port have standard analogue line-in, Amp is going to give me the best results in terms of latency / delay issues.  I think Danny has come to a similar conclusion. That’s a big help!

Additional speakers bonded to the Amp in the same Sonos “room” don’t suffer from the delays mentioned above. Any other room asked to play the TV audio fed to the Amp would lag behind, however.

 

I think I understand what you’re saying here – just want to clarify as I might misunderstand the terminology (as there’s physical rooms and “rooms” that you setup for your Sonos system).  The physical room I am planning to do this in is small – i.e. from the TV to the wall just behind the couch (where another set of Sonos Ones could be added for surround sound) is just under 4 metres.  If I had a Sonos Amp connected to the TV, I presume the Sonos Ones could be synchronised with the Amp / TV without plugging directly into the network.  Or are you saying that they would lag?

Subject to your response to the above, following both your responses, I’m leaning towards going for a Sonos Amp and two Sonos Ones which would cover the left and right (and centre) of the TV sounds.  In future (when I’ve saved some $$) I could look getting a Sonos Arc and then move the Sonos Ones to behind the couch to create the surround sound.  Would that work?

If yes, then it seems like the first 3 of my criteria are met and there might still be some possibilities with the last one.  As you mentioned Danny, it might be possible to plugin via HDMI to the TV which will then go through to the Amp.  

The current audio interface I use is a Presonus 24C which has 1/4” TRS outputs.  While these could be converted to RCA, from what’s been written above there is likely to be some delay with that.  Is that correct?

I’m not wedded to this audio interface if there are others that have HDMI outputs (or something else that solves this problem) - but I have a feeling they’re not designed with these sorts of issues in mind.

Might need to keep thinking and reading on this aspect - but will definitely be open to any of your thoughts.

Thanks so much again and look forward to your response.

Loz from Oz,

Clearing up some potential misunderstandings:

In SONOS speak a “Room” is an item that you address as a single entity in a SONOS controller. A Room can have multiple components. For example; two FIVE’s or ONE’s can be “Bonded” as a stereo pair and this pair becomes a Room. An ARC/BEAM can be bonded with surrounds (ONE’s, FIVE’s, etc) and one or two SUB’s. This collection becomes a Room. All members of a Room will be time aligned. Rooms can be lashed together as a “Group” while playing music all members of the Group will be time aligned. (unless … see below)

Think of “Line-In” as a separate device from the box that is it’s host. Line-In is simply a resource on the network and is not automatically connected through to the host box output. A Speaker/AMP/ARC/PORT can select this Line-In as a source. Any combination of Rooms or Groups can play that Line-In. There will always be at least 75ms latency associated with Line-in. Output from members of a Group will always be time aligned. (unless … see below)

Unless: TV audio needs some special handling because a 75ms audio latency would annoy many TV viewers. ARC/BEAM/AMP setup a special, lower latency, path between the TV audio and ARC/BEAM/AMP/SUB/Surrounds. SUB and Surrounds use a private 5GHz link. If you attempt to Group TV audio with other SONOS Rooms, there will be a time alignment skew between the TV audio and Group audio. At the expense of some lip sync you could adjust the surround Room audio to align with TV output from the Group. In general you only need to worry about this detail if it is possible to simultaneously hear surround audio and Group audio. In separate physical rooms this is rarely an issue. I wish you good luck if you try to synchronize TV audio from one room with TV picture in another room.

Finally: About that computer output or output from an audio mixer. SONOS was never designed to deal with live audio or to deliver audio associated with a computer or video game. You will always have the 75ms latency associated with Line-In and computers typically introduce latencies of their own. If you want to be anal and clever, you could cook up an HDMI-ARC feed for output from the computer and send this to ARC/BEAM/AMP through the lower latency path intended for TV audio. This is not a project for the feint of heart.

Thanks very much Buzz for your comments - I think I mostly  get it but it is helpful hearing it from another perspective.

So I have a few questions on if I went with a Sonos Amp and two Sonos Ones (and one day added an Arc and moved the Ones to the back) based on what you’ve written:

In SONOS speak a “Room” is an item that you address as a single entity in a SONOS controller. A Room can have multiple components. For example; two FIVE’s or ONE’s can be “Bonded” as a stereo pair and this pair becomes a Room. An ARC/BEAM can be bonded with surrounds (ONE’s, FIVE’s, etc) and one or two SUB’s. This collection becomes a Room. All members of a Room will be time aligned. Rooms can be lashed together as a “Group” while playing music all members of the Group will be time aligned. (unless … see below)

So the Amp and bonded Ones or the Amp connected to the Arc and bonded Ones would be considered one group?

Think of “Line-In” as a separate device from the box that is it’s host. Line-In is simply a resource on the network and is not automatically connected through to the host box output. A Speaker/AMP/ARC/PORT can select this Line-In as a source. Any combination of Rooms or Groups can play that Line-In. There will always be at least 75ms latency associated with Line-in. Output from members of a Group will always be time aligned. (unless … see below)

This makes sense - eg if the turntable is connected through line-in, there is an approx 75ms latency to ensure all speakers (not just those directly connected) are in sync?

Unless: TV audio needs some special handling because a 75ms audio latency would annoy many TV viewers. ARC/BEAM/AMP setup a special, lower latency, path between the TV audio and ARC/BEAM/AMP/SUB/Surrounds. SUB and Surrounds use a private 5GHz link. If you attempt to Group TV audio with other SONOS Rooms, there will be a time alignment skew between the TV audio and Group audio. At the expense of some lip sync you could adjust the surround Room audio to align with TV output from the Group. In general you only need to worry about this detail if it is possible to simultaneously hear surround audio and Group audio. In separate physical rooms this is rarely an issue. I wish you good luck if you try to synchronize TV audio from one room with TV picture in another room.

This is where I’m less clear.  So if the TV is connected to the Amp and there are Sonos Ones that are bonded(?) with the Amp (and Arc if its in the picture), then will there be a delay in the sound going to the Ones?  They’re still in the same room.  In my case, its a small living space so the issues of other Group audio wouldn’t exist (I’m not going to have other Sonos speakers in other rooms).

And finally

Finally: About that computer output or output from an audio mixer. SONOS was never designed to deal with live audio or to deliver audio associated with a computer or video game. You will always have the 75ms latency associated with Line-In and computers typically introduce latencies of their own. If you want to be anal and clever, you could cook up an HDMI-ARC feed for output from the computer and send this to ARC/BEAM/AMP through the lower latency path intended for TV audio. This is not a project for the feint of heart.

Yes I know… I’ve seen enough threads and complaints from people to realise that I’m trying to do something it isn’t designed to do.  But at the same time there do seem to be some work arounds and seemingly new technology gets developed every day which can alter or resolve one individual's particular issues.

The suggestion you make re HDMI-ARC feed from computer to ARC/BEAM/AMP (which there might be a way of doing) - is this less likely to work if connecting to a Sonos Amp with just Sonos One speakers as opposed to a Sonos Amp connected to an Arc?  

Unless ONE’s are Bonded as surrounds, they cannot be connected to BEAM/ARC/AMP because the ONE(s) will become their own independent Room(s).

Certainly you could use single or paired ONE’s in the same physical room as BEAM/ARC/AMP, but the ONE’s will become separate SONOS Room(s) and you’ll run into the lip sync issues outlined above if you attempt to use this scheme with TV audio or my undefined HDMI-ARC lash-up. There will not be any time alignment issues while playing music if the SONOS Rooms are Grouped.

Ok that’s helpful - I guess it makes me wonder (less so for myself), how is someone meant to setup surround sound then without there being issues with delay / lip sync?  Is it just a matter of needing to connect them up via ethernet?

Reflecting on what’s been written (I’m now feeling a bit confused) it seems best if I get the Sonos Amp - but I am unclear whether this will work with a TV if the speakers I intend to use are two Sonos Ones (no Arc, no other 3rd party speakers).

Can I use the Sonos Ones as the main speakers for the TV if the TV is connected to a Sonos Amp? If no, does this change if the Sonos Ones ethernet ports are used (i.e. connected up to the network)?

If not, it seems my best option (at my budget level) is to go for an Amp and 2 third party speakers as they can connect directly to the outputs from the Sonos Amp?  Going for the Amp and Arc is probably out of my price range at the moment.

Hi @Loz from Oz 

This cannot be done - Ones can only work as TV speakers when bonded to a Home Theatre device as surrounds. To get the front channels working, you would have to connect passive speakers to the Amp with speaker wire.

Yes - this is my first-option-advice for you.

Let me lay it out for you:

You buy an Amp and either buy or already have some normal, passive speakers. You wire the speakers to the Amp and connect the Amp to the TV with HDMI. We’ll call this room Living Room, which is likely what you’d do in the Sonos app. 

You will get the front 3 channels of a surround sound audio track through the two speakers, the centre channel being duplicated over both.

Adding some Sonos Ones, and bonding them as surrounds, you now get 5.0 audio and still only have one Sonos room - Living Room. They will all play TV audio in sync, with no physical connection needed to the surrounds. You can choose music to play from all 4 speakers, or only the front two.

A Sub can also be added, wirelessly. 5.1 is achieved, everything is in sync, and you still only see Living Room in the app.

Any additional Sonos device you purchase will be set up in a new Sonos room, regardless of their physical location. All rooms can play music sources in sync, including Line-In from the Amp. Any room that is not Living Room will experience a delay when playing TV audio, but will play. This is unsupported, so while it may work, we don’t really expect it to and will not troubleshoot grouping TV audio to other rooms.

You can of course add additional rooms before you have expanded Living Room, should you so wish.

At any time you could replace the Amp with an Arc, and move the Amp to another physical room or keep it in the same room - but you’d have to rename it in the app, say Turntable.

Regarding live audio, this is unlikely to be usable - if you are DJing and trying to match beats, it would be next to impossible (what you hear from the speakers and what you hear on the headphones are not synced, so if it sounds like it’s matched, when you actually play it is not. I think). If it’s Karaoke, singing will be difficult when hearing an echo louder than your actual voice. It would probably be good fun trying though.

I hope this clears it all up for you.

Los from Oz,

I don’t recommend attempting to use SONOS in a home DJ setup because the latency will result in DJ confusion. Professional DJ’s might be able to deal with this latency because there are similar issues resulting from echoes in a large hall. Karaoke singers are usually confused to the point of stuttering.

This latency is a technical advantage in a multi-room, time aligned application, not a reason to smack SONOS in the head. Home networking, particularly WiFi, was not designed with realtime audio and video in mind. If a web page is delayed for a few milliseconds while a block of corrupt data is dealt with, no one will notice. SONOS can keep audio play of up to 32 players time aligned with each other. A momentary glitch in data throughput to one or more players would result in very obvious audio issues. The 75ms latency allows the SONOS players some time to work through connectivity issues.

Yes, there are professional level network techniques that can deal with realtime audio and video, but rather than a few hundreds of dollars worth of network gear, there are many thousands of dollars, strict rules, and someone who has experience dealing with this level of hardware.