End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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D
Userlevel 7
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Please explain what you mean when you say that you will support products that you sell for at least 5 years.  I bought a CONNECT:AMP in 2018 to add to the 3 CONNECT:AMPS ans 2 CONNECTS that I bought in 2015 (less than 5 years ago - but it will be 5 years in May when you discontinue support).  If the one I bought in 2018 is still “Modern”, why aren’t the others?

There were apparently some hardware changes without a corresponding device name change. Sonos realizes this was a very bad idea and probably won’t do it again.

According to my sources the original Connect and Play 5 had 32mb of memory, the connect:amp and play 1 have 64. The newer connect has 256mb as does the Gen 2 play 5.
The newest models have 1024mb (1 gig) so it is safe to say that the older models with 64 and 256mb are likely not long for this world. And when 1 gb is not enough, they will get tossed too. This will NEVER end and the cost of ownership it through the roof. 

Posted by another forum member (apologies I can’t locate that original post… it’s a swirling vortex of post activity the past 48 hrs.)

Oh how I now wish I’d purchased my Connects just 13 months later.


It’s precisely this kindof chart which would prevent me replacing my Gen 1 Play:5 with a Gen 2 as surely that (and my existing Play:3’s) are going to hit the same issues soon. 

 

Thanks for posting the chart, all.  This actually explains pretty well why it is becoming challenging to keep the earlier models working over time when using their existing architecture where every device needs to work at the level of the “lowest capability device”.

Real big eye opener and the graph explains pretty well the issues they are facing. But we all agree here that them not supporting the older models with new software is fine. What were all “annoyed” about is how it effects our other devices, they shouldnt be penalised/stunted/held hostage. Sonos has clever developers, they just need to find away to allow modern to update, legacy to stay still and basic fucntionality (grouped music) still work. Just have a caveat about newer features not working on legacy devices. We just want interoperability please! 

P
Userlevel 4
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Stock continues down another 2.5% today.  


Almost -8,5% from the top of Friday.

Great job Sonos management. You have lost about 135 millions (Market cap) with a single email. Is that a World record for Guinnes book?

I bet some of the guys are already looking at job adverts.

It would be nice to hear the board of meeting. Nice coffee break? I really don’t think so.

W
Userlevel 2
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Thanks for posting the chart, all.  This actually explains pretty well why it is becoming challenging to keep the earlier models working over time when using their existing architecture where every device needs to work at the level of the “lowest capability device”.

 

 

I’m not sure anyone has said every device needs to work at the level of the “lowest capability device”? They need to communicate and have compatible software, but that’s not quite the same.

 

Not defending their architecture per se, because I think it’s clearly time to come up with something more flexible, but that was the statement (all devices need to do all the things) for years when asked about the 65k song library limit:  That some devices didn’t have enough memory for a larger library, and the way they designed the system, every device on the network has the library on it, so the lowest capacity device defines what all the devices are allowed to do -- even if your particular system only has the latest devices, the software is designed to accommodate the limitations of the least capable device in the Sonos ecosystem.

Again, I’m not saying that is a good long term architecture, but it seems to underline the current situation.

I wonder what the solutions are:

 

  1.  Change the architecture to treat some devices as “dumb” (example, they don’t have the library, they don’t work on wireless, or whatever).  That would limit some of the niceties we have come to love an expect, but also let us continue to benefit from our investment in the devices.
  2. Come out with a significant upgrade program (maybe 50% off upgraded devices).  Even at that price, given the cost of hardware, they’d be making a bit of money off upgrades, but it would also signal one of the most generous upgrade programs in consumer electronics….which should quell some of the outrage (though of course not all of it).
  3. The above two ideas have the added benefit of good PR:  “We hear you.  We mid judged the fierce passion of our long time customers.  We have come up with some creative solutions.  None of perfect, but due to [list SPECIFIC TECHNICAL REASONS, not corporate speak] these are the limits of what we can achieve.
     
L
Userlevel 1

The email I received from Sonos the other day was like a kick in the gut.  I learned that I would have to spend $628 to replace two connects that are working fine.  I have spent a lot of money on Sonos products and expect them to last for more than five years.  It is ironic that one of my connects are connected to a stereo that is almost thirty years old that is definitely not obsolete.  At the minimum Sonos should be replacing these units at cost and not making a profit off of this.   

It’d certainly be interesting to understand the financial impact on SONOS were they to offer a like-4-like swap out of ‘legacy’ items with the latest equivalent.  And to compare this cost with the net impact on their sales / stock price / reputation over the coming months / years should they fail to adequately deal with this lamentable situation.

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +2

Please explain what you mean when you say that you will support products that you sell for at least 5 years.  I bought a CONNECT:AMP in 2018 to add to the 3 CONNECT:AMPS ans 2 CONNECTS that I bought in 2015 (less than 5 years ago - but it will be 5 years in May when you discontinue support).  If the one I bought in 2018 is still “Modern”, why aren’t the others?

There were apparently some hardware changes without a corresponding device name change. Sonos realizes this was a very bad idea and probably won’t do it again.

According to my sources the original Connect and Play 5 had 32mb of memory, the connect:amp and play 1 have 64. The newer connect has 256mb as does the Gen 2 play 5.
The newest models have 1024mb (1 gig) so it is safe to say that the older models with 64 and 256mb are likely not long for this world. And when 1 gb is not enough, they will get tossed too. This will NEVER end and the cost of ownership it through the roof. 

Posted by another forum member (apologies I can’t locate that original post… it’s a swirling vortex of post activity the past 48 hrs.)

Oh how I now wish I’d purchased my Connects just 13 months later.


It’s precisely this kindof chart which would prevent me replacing my Gen 1 Play:5 with a Gen 2 as surely that (and my existing Play:3’s) are going to hit the same issues soon. 

 

Thanks for posting the chart, all.  This actually explains pretty well why it is becoming challenging to keep the earlier models working over time when using their existing architecture where every device needs to work at the level of the “lowest capability device”.

Real big eye opener and explains pretty well the issues they are facing. But we all agree here that not supporting the older models with new software is fine. Thats life, it happens. What were all “annoyed” about is how it effects our other devices, they shoundnt be penalised/staunted/held hostage. Sonos has clever developers, they just need to find away to allow modern to update, legacy to stay still and basic fucntionality (grouped music) still work. Just have a caveat about newer features not working on legacy devices.

This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

dave77
Userlevel 6
Badge +11

Bluesound multi-room system


We should all buy Google Home, that’ll piss Sonos off :joy:

Bluesound makes Sonos look cheap, and has poor reviews.

T
Userlevel 3

Since I posted in this tread yesterday I have spoken with the people I referred to Sonos, a few people at work and my sister all bought Sonos based on how good I said it was, they have also referred people themselves. They are all furious with the current situation and none will consider ever buying their products again given the current stance, we all had plans to expand our systems at some point soon. 

 

The thing that none of us can get past is that these are just speakers, we are not asking them to do anything more than play music. Even if they cannot support new features there is no reason they cannot be made slaves to a more modern piece of tech in the system like a new bridge, they just need to relay commands and play what they are told and they could last 50 years, I would buy a new bridge or speaker in a heart beat if it did this. 

 

As it stands we simply do not believe what Sonos is telling us about it not being possible to integrate legacy items and have no idea how long a new speaker is now expected to last even if I did replace them, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? I can’t invest in premium priced tech on that basis.

M

I have a five room Sonos system built up over a number of years. I also have a sublime Mission hi-fi that is 30 years old.

 

...and I am incredibly surprised that there isn’t more outrage at the Sonos announcement re. legacy kit.

 

I used to be a real advocate for Sonos (“the best gadget ever”).

 

That said, the chance of me ever buying more Sonos kit diminishes by the day.

P
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

 

This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

Exactly. I have much lower capacity products which are also used for Spotify. Those are working without problems because actually you don’t need so much capacity for streaming Spotify. It’s very simple thing.

And as we have told multiple times. The capacity issues are not the real reasons. The real reason is the money and it can be found clearly from the latest SEC report. There is nothing about lack of capacity, but you can see many rows text about making more money with closing support for old products.

W
Userlevel 2
Badge

Please explain what you mean when you say that you will support products that you sell for at least 5 years.  I bought a CONNECT:AMP in 2018 to add to the 3 CONNECT:AMPS ans 2 CONNECTS that I bought in 2015 (less than 5 years ago - but it will be 5 years in May when you discontinue support).  If the one I bought in 2018 is still “Modern”, why aren’t the others?

There were apparently some hardware changes without a corresponding device name change. Sonos realizes this was a very bad idea and probably won’t do it again.

According to my sources the original Connect and Play 5 had 32mb of memory, the connect:amp and play 1 have 64. The newer connect has 256mb as does the Gen 2 play 5.
The newest models have 1024mb (1 gig) so it is safe to say that the older models with 64 and 256mb are likely not long for this world. And when 1 gb is not enough, they will get tossed too. This will NEVER end and the cost of ownership it through the roof. 

Posted by another forum member (apologies I can’t locate that original post… it’s a swirling vortex of post activity the past 48 hrs.)

Oh how I now wish I’d purchased my Connects just 13 months later.


It’s precisely this kindof chart which would prevent me replacing my Gen 1 Play:5 with a Gen 2 as surely that (and my existing Play:3’s) are going to hit the same issues soon. 

 

Thanks for posting the chart, all.  This actually explains pretty well why it is becoming challenging to keep the earlier models working over time when using their existing architecture where every device needs to work at the level of the “lowest capability device”.

Real big eye opener and explains pretty well the issues they are facing. But we all agree here that not supporting the older models with new software is fine. Thats life, it happens. What were all “annoyed” about is how it effects our other devices, they shoundnt be penalised/staunted/held hostage. Sonos has clever developers, they just need to find away to allow modern to update, legacy to stay still and basic fucntionality (grouped music) still work. Just have a caveat about newer features not working on legacy devices.

This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

Their system is designed at present to require all devices to interoperate in several ways (wireless compatibility, sharing the songs library, etc) so they have backed themselves into a technical corner.  When one segment of devices can’t “keep up” they have chosen (or forced themselves to choose) to let that device limit what other devices can do.

Of course their solution, rather than do some creative engineering, is to shoot themselves in the foot, which is sad and hopefully they change their mind.  A new system architecture, that takes into account varying capabilities without limiting more capable devices because of legacy limitations, would be the responsible corporate thing to do.  

I don’t just mean good PR, I mean they boast of their good corporate values and environmental ethos.  So, making sure legacy devices are still usable even if functionality on those devices is limited is a much better ethical and environmental solution than their current update&brick approach.  That is, it would be a PR win (or at least a step in the right direction) but it would ALSO be a boon to current owners, and to the planet.

D
Userlevel 1

How about standing-by the quality of your products and generating new customers? Instead of screwing your existing customers and ruining your brand and brand loyalty.

W
Userlevel 2
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This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

Exactly. I have much lower capacity products which are also used for Spotify. Those are working without problems because actually you don’t need so much capacity for streaming Spotify. It’s very simple thing.

And as we have told multiple times. The capacity issues are not the real reasons. The real reason is the money and it can be found clearly from the latest SEC report. There is nothing about lack of capacity, but you can see many rows text about making more money with closing support for old products.

This is interesting.  Which SEC report is that? I would love to read it.

P
Userlevel 3

Let’s try to get a US News group to pick up the story.  Attached is a link to Fox News.  Select “send a story or news tip”.  I’m sending it right now.  Fox may respond if they get enough incoming tips. 
 

https://help.foxnews.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

 

Another option you should all consider is to contact the California State Attorney general.  They will be interested in this scheme Sonos is running.   

F
Userlevel 1

I just logged in to tell you I will never spend another penny on Sonos after this robbing move you  have made, I hope the company fails.

I’ve had my play 5s for less than 5 years and now my whole system will be renewed obsolete, and you think a 30% discount is a good deal, bunch of jokers,

L
Userlevel 3
Badge +2

This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

They will be able to play music in the future!

I’m affected by this news (4 out of 6 zones are ‘legacy’) and wholeheartedly agree the announcement was incredibly badly handled, that the forced creation of e-waste is abhorrent, the splitting of zones into ‘legacy’ and ‘modern’ networks negates half the reason for owning a Sonos system and that the 30% ‘upgrade’ discount isn’t enough, but this thread is becoming more and more hyperbolic!

No one’s equipment is suddenly being ‘bricked’ and the share price, while falling, is not ‘sinking faster than the titanic’. By all means continue to voice displeasure, it might have an affect, but at the moment its hard to see past the melodrama and people patting themselves on the back for lowering a company’s score from 4/5 to 1/5 in various places. Why would anyone from Sonos come on here to comment currently? - nothing constructive would come of it.

B
Userlevel 1

For long-time customers (like me), there’s one very logical option. Stop purchasing new Sonos components and operate in legacy mode until the entire system fails. And then move on.

Of course if you’re not outraged, love Sonos sound (meh), and don’t mind replacing hardware at a premium-price, stick with them.

I have recommended Sonos to so many friends and family members (some recently) and I forwarded them my email from Sonos with the recycle option along with an offer to buy them a six pack as an apology. One, who recently dropped over $1k said “make it a twelve pack.” 

I have spent about $2k with Sonos and was close to buying a Sonos soundbar and sub as the email came through that two of my units were no longer supported. That changed everything for me.

I’ve been with Sonos for about a decade and here’s what I know:

  • The system updates over the past few years are barely noticeable anyway and some recent controller updates have created a more confusing UX. Operating in a legacy mode across the entire system feels just fine to me until the end of its useful life.
  • I entertain less, so multi-room playing/ control is becoming less important to me.
  • Buying the Play 3 (two of them, in fact) was a terrible decision. They are some of the worst sounding speakers I’ve ever purchased and it won’t break my heart to see these become obsolete.
  • Probably like you, I view Sonos as speakers; not desktop computers. I’d expect desktop computers to fail within 6-10 years but I expect my speakers to get better with age (my Totem Rainmakers are amazing).
  • I recently purchased a pair of powered speakers for about $200 (from Fluance) and hooked up to a turntable. I tested against a Play 5 and the Play 5 can’t compare, especially at the price.

Sonos offers simplicity, but this announcement from them offers an opportunity to re-think your listening experience. I’m beginning to prioritize the best sounding speakers and the right aesthetic and the right price for each room FIRST… and Sonos won’t be able to compete. DTS Play Fi and several receiver brands (if you still use a receiver) offer an ability to create multi-room audio. 

And the market has evolved. There are alternatives to Sonos and I suspect those competitors are working on responses to this move. Be on the lookout for “switch” campaigns offering discounts to Sonos customers.

I’ll be operating in legacy mode, holding off on future Sonos purchases, and doing plenty of research to figure out how to get close to Sonos with multi-room [computer] controls BUT with the flexibility to choose better quality speakers from [speaker] brands. And it already feels liberating.

C
Userlevel 1

Please come up with a reversal option for the trade in. I won’t be taking advantage of the discount as I don’t want to continue to buy equipment that will be made obsolete while it still works and I believe that sending thousands of pieces of working equipment to landfills is extremely irresponsible. 

M

Completely agree...I saw the outrage on this forum but I was surprised there wasn’t more outside of this environment.

Also, as music playing devices (rather than technology) they are shortening lifecycles way beyond what is reasonable.

I also produce music and have vintage kit that is decades old and still performs as it should.

 

And as you point out, wottynatty what about the bloody planet!

W
Userlevel 2
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From the most recent 10K filing….

 

“We may choose to discontinue support for older versions of our products, resulting in customer dissatisfaction that could negatively affect our business and operating results.

We have historically maintained, and we believe our customers may expect, extensive backward compatibility for our older products and the software that supports them, allowing older products to continue to benefit from new software updates. We expect that in the near term, this backward compatibility will no longer be practical or cost-effective, and we may decrease or discontinue service for our older products. If we no longer provide extensive backward capability for our products, we may damage our relationship with our existing customers, as well as our reputation, brand loyalty and ability to attract new customers.

For these reasons, any decision to decrease or discontinue backward capability may decrease sales and adversely affect our business, operating results and financial condition.”

U
Userlevel 4
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If we are not able to maintain and enhance the value and reputation of our brand, or if our reputation is otherwise harmed, our business and operating results could be adversely affected.


Our continued success depends on our reputation for providing high-quality products and consumer experiences, and the “Sonos” name is critical to preserving and expanding our business. Our brand and reputation are dependent on a number of factors, including our marketing efforts, product quality, and trademark protection efforts, each of which requires significant expenditures.


The value of our brand could also be severely damaged by isolated incidents, which may be outside of our control. For example, in the United States, we rely on custom installers of home audio systems for a significant portion of our sales but maintain no control over the quality of their work and thus could suffer damage to our brand or business to the extent such installations are unsatisfactory or defective. Any damage to our brand or reputation may adversely affect our business, financial condition and operating results.

Source: Sonos 10K

U
Userlevel 4
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Extract Sonos 10K

 

P
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

 

This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

Exactly. I have much lower capacity products which are also used for Spotify. Those are working without problems because actually you don’t need so much capacity for streaming Spotify. It’s very simple thing.

And as we have told multiple times. The capacity issues are not the real reasons. The real reason is the money and it can be found clearly from the latest SEC report. There is nothing about lack of capacity, but you can see many rows text about making more money with closing support for old products.

This is interesting.  Which SEC report is that? I would love to read it.

 

This doesn’t explain why speakers that play music now won’t be able to music in the future.  I understand why they won’t have additionally features; but, this doesn’t explain at all why music won’t be able to be played.

Exactly. I have much lower capacity products which are also used for Spotify. Those are working without problems because actually you don’t need so much capacity for streaming Spotify. It’s very simple thing.

And as we have told multiple times. The capacity issues are not the real reasons. The real reason is the money and it can be found clearly from the latest SEC report. There is nothing about lack of capacity, but you can see many rows text about making more money with closing support for old products.

This is interesting.  Which SEC report is that? I would love to read it.


Thanks for asking!

Here is the key point for the whole nightmare:

“We may choose to discontinue support for older versions of our products, resulting in customer dissatisfaction that could negatively affect our business and operating results.We have historically maintained, and we believe our customers may expect, extensive backward compatibility for our older products and the software that supports them, allowing older products tocontinue to benefit from new software updates. We expect that in the near term, this backward compatibility will no longer be practical or cost-effective, and we may decrease or discontinue service forour older products. If we no longer provide extensive backward capability for our products, we may damage our relationship with our existing customers, as well as our reputation, brand loyalty andability to attract new customers”

The text can be found from the Form 10-K, page 16.

The form can be found for example from here:

https://investors.sonos.com/reports-and-filings/default.aspx

C
Userlevel 1

I have a bunch of older SONOS products as well. I’ve had SONOS for years. 

I used to sell audio for a living. I have literally sold multiple hundreds of sonos products to people over the years.  Even after I got out of sales I still recommended SONOS to everyone I spoke to when audio came up.  

 

No longer.

 

I am very upset about this and it seems like it was a really poorly thought out execution of what has happened. I don’t contribute to forums.  This announcement motivated me to do so.

 

SONOS really needs to come up with a better solution if they want to continue to keep and grow customers.

 

 

 

T
Userlevel 1

WOW! Sonos what a big fail

I own 3 devices that are now going to be bricks, thank you so much!

I have a Sub I just purchased after Christmas and thankfully I have until the end of the month to return it (thanks amazon) grabbing the box out the garage after this rant.

I have close to 20 Sonos products in my house from over the years, now I see that this adding ever year was me just being stupid.

 

Side note if you still own Sonos stock SELL IT before it is a $5 stock, Hopefully apple will buy this company and straighten things out.

 

SONOS reverse this stupid move

#sellsonos,#boycottsonos

C

I also completely agree with the sentiments being expressed. I sent the below email to Patrick Spence the Sonos chief executive this morning in the vain hope that Sonos reconsider their approach.  His e.mail is in the contact us part of the website.  

 

Hi Patrick,

I am writing to express my extreme disappointment and dissatisfaction with the recent announcement made by Sonos in relation to your older equipment. I feel like I have just lost an old friend.

Having bought Sonos for many rooms in my home back at the start of 2012, I have since been a great ambassador for your company, demonstrating the product enthusiastically to visitors in my home over the years and singing the praises of the Sonos brand.  This has resulted in a large number of my friends now also having Sonos in their homes.  I imagine that this has been the case in many homes across the world and am certain that this invisible sales force have been far more effective over the years for you and your company than any other.

For me, this announcement changes everything.  It tells me that Sonos are no longer interested in their customers and I was mistaken to promote them as I have.  The values of the company have clearly changed.

I had intended to buy further equipment in time and have continued to promote it in my home.  Now with the  knowledge that any Sonos product will only have a limited lifespan I would expect that like a lot of other customers I would have to think long and hard about doing that.  

I am now faced with owning expensive obsolete equipment.   Offering a 30% discount scheme on perfectly good equipment looks like a desperate sales gimmick and one that given the above I wouldn't choose to afford.

I ask that you reconsider how you and Sonos could continue to support your original loyal customers and their aging products. 

I would not necessarily expect that the older products would be able to support the latest software updates but I would have expected that you would continue to provide a means by which they would continue to work.  

I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

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