Announcement: https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/
Now that Apple Music has joined the “lossless club”, can we please hear from Sonos as to whether this will be supported, and, if it will be, approximately when that may occur?
Thanks.
Just for posterity in case anyone missed it as I see a few speculating…
You’ll never get any company to be transparent about their direct interactions with another company. It just doesn’t happen, for all sorts of reasons.
Frankly, Sonos has never related any information about software features under development. The most you’d see is when something is being tested in the beta environment, if you’re a beta tester, and NDA’d to not talk about it. Those of us in the community at large will only ever find out about features when they get released.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
My understanding is AirPlay 2 can support upto 24/48 but at the moment is capped at 16/44. I don’t think Spotify are going to offer beyond cd quality. Again it will be interesting to see what implementation of native Spotify support sonos will give when it launches. Also we will have to see what way Spotify connect will work with Sonos and other devices. I think if Spotify stay at 16/44 than the connect feature should be ok. But will Sonos say it’s up to Spotify to implement the audio improvements natively they probably will. Finally my understanding is that to go beyond 24/48 with Apple Music will be a usb dac job only from a mac or iPhone/iPad. Etc (yes Android supports Apple Music but android resamples all signals being output over usb). I have no idea about Amazon music as have never used it due to it not being available here. Certainly interesting times ahead.
it would be much better for Sonos to be proactively working with Apple as much as possible to make this happen and to communicate to the Sonos community exactly what Sonos is doing in this regard - v.s. simply saying it is up to Apple.
I agree, except that I would not use the word “exactly” in the quote. Sonos can do a better job on this than what it does today without at the same time going the whole hog and letting customers be privy to all the details of their interactions with Apple, or to make a commitments to time frames for implementation until they are sure these can be met.
Saying - it is all up to Apple - sounds silly. IMO. Sonos defenders will disagree.
The question of how stable wireless streaming of data dense HD music files will be, especially in grouped mode, is something that not many users are anticipating though. In many cases stable music play will need grouped units to be ethernet wired to the network. So, be careful what you wish for. And, for something of unproven audible benefit.
Airplay 2 seems interesting though, assuming (since I don't have it) that it delivers stable music play today. The interesting thing is that on the phone side, one can obtain the HD streams, while for in home distribution these are down sampled to files as dense as CD format files, presenting a lesser challenge for wireless distribution. With the same sound being delivered because the downsampling will still allow all the benefits of remastered to a higher standard HD music to be heard.
What’s the current quality of Apple music on Sonos? Based on the information from the article, sounds as if Apple is only offering above CD quality on Apple devices...which is pretty typical of Apple.
To start listening to Lossless Audio, subscribers using the latest version of Apple Music can turn it on in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. Here, they can choose different resolutions for different connections such as cellular, Wi-Fi, or for download. Apple Music’s Lossless tier starts at CD quality, which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz (kilohertz), and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz and is playable natively on Apple devices. For the true audiophile, Apple Music also offers Hi-Resolution Lossless all the way up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.1
That is completely wrong if you have read anything at all and it is not typical of Apple. Apple Music is on android and everywhere else they can think of to make money from services.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality.
Interesting and it suggests that there is much more to Airplay than what meets the eye.
All these gyrations could have been avoided if more Sonos speakers had line in jacks. Wire an iDevice and get the HD sound via the oldest, universal and widely accepted protocol - analog electrical signals - without anything having to be done by either company. Heard sound quality then is dependent just on speaker quality...
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
I’m lead to believe it will just be an software update of Airplay 2, not a new version altogether, like what apple done when moving streaming to 4k on Apple TV. The capability has always been there it’s just been capped.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
I am sure that Sonos has a pretty good idea of how much of their user base is a subset of this 70 million number; while prioritising their actions and resource allocation, if there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that Sonos will be very mindful of its user base - existing as well as target - sliced and diced in every which way.
I didn’t interpret
What’s the current quality of Apple music on Sonos? Based on the information from the article, sounds as if Apple is only offering above CD quality on Apple devices...which is pretty typical of Apple.
To start listening to Lossless Audio, subscribers using the latest version of Apple Music can turn it on in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. Here, they can choose different resolutions for different connections such as cellular, Wi-Fi, or for download. Apple Music’s Lossless tier starts at CD quality, which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz (kilohertz), and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz and is playable natively on Apple devices. For the true audiophile, Apple Music also offers Hi-Resolution Lossless all the way up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.1
That is completely wrong if you have read anything at all and it is not typical of Apple. Apple Music is on android and everywhere else they can think of to make money from services.
The text in italics was a direct quote for the article. If I’m wrong then the article is wrong. And yes, it’s not at all surprising for Apple to have services/features that are only available on Apple devices. heck, airplay can only be generated from Apple devices. Yes, you can have Apple music on an android, but you can’t use airplay, and based on the text above, you won’t be playing hires tracks. But hey, maybe the article is wrong or I’m just not reading it right.
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
I’m lead to believe it will just be an software update of Airplay 2, not a new version altogether, like what apple done when moving streaming to 4k on Apple TV. The capability has always been there it’s just been capped.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though. The most logical time to announce this would be WWDC in June but Lossless doesn’t launch until then either and already says for anything higher than 24/48 you need an external DAC physically attached, which would contradict being able to do it via AirPlay.
Also, is Sonos’ 24/48 limitation physical or in software?
Looks like apple are opening up Airplay 2 to be able to stream up to 24/192 as long as your end point has a DAC that can recieve that.
In my case my Sonos Amp is my end point so the question is will Sonos now expand on its 24/48 limitation it has with Qobuz and let us hear hi res streaming from Apple Music?
I know Sonos seems to be against hi res streaming but it's moving from a niche market into the mainstream now with Apple / Amazon and Spotify all going to be providing hi res streaming as standard.
They are not “opening up” Airplay 2. A new version of Airplay would be required to go beyond cd quality. Sonos has always denied the benefits of hi res so I very much doubt their hardware can play it.
I’m lead to believe it will just be an software update of Airplay 2, not a new version altogether, like what apple done when moving streaming to 4k on Apple TV. The capability has always been there it’s just been capped.
So will we now see Sonos support Hi-Res for Apple Music’s 70 million subscribers who from next month will have access to Hi-Res streaming?
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though. The most logical time to announce this would be WWDC in June but Lossless doesn’t launch until then either and already says for anything higher than 24/48 you need an external DAC physically attached, which would contradict being able to do it via AirPlay.
Also, is Sonos’ 24/48 limitation physical or in software?
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though.
Can you airplay 4k video to multiple endpoints at the same time and have them play in sync? My guess is that you can’t. When streaming a video to a single source, you have the luxary of using a rather huge buffer to allow for changes in transmission speeds etc. Even then, you can temporarily stop the stream when the buffer runs empty and restart without issue. That is not the case with multiroom audio. While the amount of data is much smaller, you can’t have as large of a buffer, and you have to have all the device coordinate to play in sync. If one of the endpoints losing the connection, you can’t just pause everything to let it catch up, it has to stop playing and rejoin everything else, etc.
In short, you need to have a much more solid network to do multiroom audio in an acceptable way then you do to stream a video to a single source.
Do you have a source for this info? Would be good to know if that’s happening. It would seem possible as surely the bit rate required is still below Airplaying 4K video across your network, which Airplay 2 was upgraded to do last September. It doesn’t fit the smallprint of Apple Music Lossless though.
Can you airplay 4k video to multiple endpoints at the same time and have them play in sync? My guess is that you can’t. When streaming a video to a single source, you have the luxary of using a rather huge buffer to allow for changes in transmission speeds etc. Even then, you can temporarily stop the stream when the buffer runs empty and restart without issue. That is not the case with multiroom audio. While the amount of data is much smaller, you can’t have as large of a buffer, and you have to have all the device coordinate to play in sync. If one of the endpoints losing the connection, you can’t just pause everything to let it catch up, it has to stop playing and rejoin everything else, etc.
In short, you need to have a much more solid network to do multiroom audio in an acceptable way then you do to stream a video to a single source.
Roon manage it quite well
Roon manage it quite well
Roon sends video streams to multiple endputs in sync? The point was that if you can stream 4k video, than you can stream hires audio. My counterpoint was that it having to play the stream at multiple endpoints in sync was a big factor.
Roon manage it quite well
Roon sends video streams to multiple endputs in sync? The point was that if you can stream 4k video, than you can stream hires audio. My counterpoint was that it having to play the stream at multiple endpoints in sync was a big factor.
My point is that Roon manages to send large audio files in sync to multiple end points with no issues.
Roon manage it quite well
Roon sends video streams to multiple endputs in sync? The point was that if you can stream 4k video, than you can stream hires audio. My counterpoint was that it having to play the stream at multiple endpoints in sync was a big factor.
My point is that Roon manages to send large audio files in sync to multiple end points with no issues.
Ok, great. Doesn’t change my point though in comparison to video streaming vs audio streaming in a multiroom settings.
I don’t know much about the Roon, but I would guess that they use a much larger buffer than Sonos does. And they can get away with that since they don’t stream any ‘live’ sources from an aux input or TV. That would make the job a lot easier, I would think.
My point is that Roon manages to send large audio files in sync to multiple end points with no issues.
This is news to me and interesting, and it prompted me to open this thread:
Playing the same recording via lossless CD rips, iTunes 256 AAC downloads and Apple Music at 256 AAC, I hear no differences. Just saying...
Lossless recordings definitely play louder & clearer vs music streamed from Apple Music, don’t be deceived.
The difference is much more noticeable in my car when comparing a CD track vs apple, Spotify & Deezer. Apple Music is objectively the worse.
Lossless recordings definitely play louder & clearer vs music streamed from Apple Music, don’t be deceived.
Quite possible; but don’t confuse clearer as distinct from louder. Louder always sounds clearer, plus it has all the sound quality traits so beloved of audiophiles. And louder was therefore a trick taught to stereo salesmen in the days of brick and mortar stores.
The same effect can be had by bumping the volume control a tad to the right.
I just ordered a (discontinued) Apple AirPort Express from eBay for $30. I plan to connect the analog out from the AirPort Express to the analog in on my Sonos Port. That should allow me to stream lossless Apple Music to every Sonos endpoint.
I still have my old iPhone 7, which I plan to wipe and use to stream Apple Music to the AirPort Express. I don’t think the DAC in the AirPort Express is the greatest and the resolution will be limited to CD quality, but that’s my solution for now. I’m not convinced it will sound any better than AAC played through the Sonos app, but it’s worth $30 to find out.
I also have a Meridian Explorer² DAC/headphone amp that handles signals up to 24/192. I can connect it directly to my phone using the USB camera kit. That setup could also be connected to the Port, but I will probably only use it for headphone listening.
I do have an Apple TV 4K connected to a Sonos Arc + Sub + Play:1 surround pair. I hope that there are some good Dolby Atmos titles to try out.
I’m not convinced it will sound any better than AAC played through the Sonos app, but it’s worth $30 to find out.
It won’t sound any better but not for the reasons you think. It has nothing to do with DAC quality. What you will be able to do though is use the Apple Music native app to play on Sonos. The downside is that your iDevice will be eating battery charge all the time that music is playing.
I have a couple of AEX units in a drawer, but it is the last bit that is stopping me from using them for this. It was easier for me to start using Spotify instead to meet my preference for a native app, which I find to be better than the interface inside the Sonos controller.
Enter your username or e-mail address. We'll send you an e-mail with instructions to reset your password.
