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Trending Lyricist I
May 30, 2017
Question

I don't even know what I want! I DO know my wife wants a simple interface

  • May 30, 2017
  • 25 replies
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I know this is an awful first post; I beg you all please to cut me some slack. I'm a 70 yo movie buff who loves Mahler, the Band, the Grateful Dead, and Lin Manuel Miranda. My home theater system is driving my wife crazy, and I need some help. I'm hoping to emerge from all of this with a Sonos surround system and one remote control sitting on our coffee table🆒

(Yesterday, all I knew about Sonos was that you could buy speakers from them at the Apple Retail Store, which substitutes for going to church for me)

Just two months ago, it was all so simple; Bose Lifestyle 35, Apple TV (4th gen), TiVo HD, a bunch of legacy stuff ("inherited" Denon DVD player, a VHS VCR with RCA video and R/L audio outputs, a rarely-connected Sony PS4 (I'd struggle with the HDMI inputs to the Base console when the grandkids came over and challenged me to video games I couldn't understand or when we'd watch one of our few BluRay movies). The Bose Remote controlled most of it (when we watched a DVD we had to use the Denon remote, which had so many buttons on it I just knew I didn't deserve it), and for some reason I couldn't figure out how to turn the TV off and on reliably from the Bose remote. As far as I knew, my only problem was that I'd run out of HDMI inputs.

Then, last year, we bought a (first generation) LG 65 inch 4K TV (LG 65HUH6150). Little did I know then: I hooked it up from cable/TiVo RF into the Bose Lifestyle console, then to HDMI out to one of the 3 HDMI inputs on the TV, not realizing the Lifestyle 35 doesn't preserve 4K video!)

Still, we thought we had a nice picture and nice audio. Then our TiVo got sick (power supply failure, it turns out). It began rebooting at more and more frequent intervals, forcing us to watch the little TiVo guy, Cary Grant, and accomplices wander through the increasingly boring cutesy TiVo "almost there…" setup video more and more often.

Others must have been taking the same DVR trip because TiVo sent us (unsolicited) an email offering to transfer our lifetime service package to a new TiVo (1 TB, 4K compatible Bolt). We jumped at the offer, then waited and waited for redemption while TiVo struggled to fulfill an avalanche of promotion-generated orders. We waited so long that the TiVo HD finally succumbed, and we were forced to buy another 500 GB Bolt with a promise from Best Buy that we could return it within 30 days. (We ended up keeping it for our bedroom TV).

While we waited, I discovered how I'd stupidly amputated my TV's ability to display 4K video at my Bose centerpiece. Meanwhile, we'd made more than a few pilgrimages to Best Buy and were seduced by just what we could get from our TV, so on impulse we disposed of our (antique but probably technically superb) Denon DVD player and sprang for an LG 4K Blu Ray DVD player.

It was then that I realized I'd have to use the TV as the centerpiece of our home theater system, relegating the Bose system to an audio out role. Suddenly we were limited to those 3 HDMI inputs and forced to juggle at least 5 remotes (two from LG alone!), and my wife rebelled. I managed to route the signals from the TiVo, LG 4K BluRay player, and Apple TV to the 3 HDMI inputs on the TV, with audio coming back to the Bose system by TosLink optical cable, and that's where we sit now. However, I learned that Bose has a new generation of Lifestyle systems, and (at least in their San Francisco showroom), the Lifestyle 650 system sounds delicious, AND it has 6 (six!) HDMI 2, HDCP 2.2 capable inputs! However, I've also discovered several "gotchas" as I've tried to leap forward two decades in my feeble understanding of home theater:

  1. It supports HD10 HDR video, but not Dolbyvision (Bose won't comment on whether this might be implemented in a firmware update)
  2. Although the remote can label a source as "VCR", the Bose console has no analog video inputs to make use of that label (I suspect there are precious few VHS VCRs blessed with digital outputs)
  3. The "source" designations on the remote are limited to a pre-defined set; for example, tthere's no way to label an input to the LifeStyle 650 as "Phono" (my wife, again, enlarging her collection of vinyl records that we've never played)
  4. It costs $4,000! $4,000!!!
  5. Even though Bose makes the wonderful QC35 noise canceling headphones, the Lifestyle console doesn't support "Bluetooth out"

Another pilgrmage to Best Buy, this time to the Magnolia Store-within-a-Store ( to talk to people who actually know something). I emerge, thinking I now know what I need: an audio system that consists of the Sonos Playbar, 4 Sonos Play:1s, and a Sonos Sub. Of course, they tell me I can't do this on my own; I'll need to pay them about $1500 to set up a (too difficult for me to configure, but "it just works" Steve Jobs, Jony Ives-ish lovely user interface) Savant remote.

At home, Googling leads me into a viper's nest of questions:
  1. Will my devices lose their 5.1 surround sound on their voyage from source to Sonos? (I'm confused about whether to blame the TV or Sonos for this).
  2. Will I be able (occasionally) to stream BlueTooth from my iPhone to the Sonos System? (I've paid Apple a LOT for all those Mahler Symphonies sitting in uncompressed format on my iPhone).
  3. Am I absolutely nuts to think that anyone can really make that Savant remote, with its huge majority of pejorative reviews, work? (Most of those reviews say that it's REALLY seductive, but then develops all kinds of problems actually fulfilling its promises). I'm not really anticipating knowledgeable input about that specific remote here, but perhaps some pointers towards single-remote peace in the home.
  4. Is there some other way to get a "single remote" experience (same question)
  5. What about HDR video? I think my current LG TV and 4K BluRay player support HD10, but for future-proofing, if I'm spending all this money I'd like to know that when I get my 4K HDR OLED TV that supports DolbyVision I'll be able to see and hear the benefits of that purchase
  6. How will I incorporate my legacy equipment (my wife again, wanting to watch those ancient VHS tapes, and me, wanting to plug in my 4K capable 2016 MacBook Pro, assuming I assemble the right "dongles" to do so). If someone chimes in with knowledge/guesses/wild speculation about whether Apple AirPlay might one day accomplish that I'd be grateful and not hold you to it
  7. Probably the same question: how will I get enough HDMI inputs? Do I need a receiver in here somewhere? Would the Sonos "Connect" have a role in this?

Much of my anxiety was generated by reading this:
http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/How-to-Get-5-1-Dolby-Surround-Sound-from-a-SONOS-PlayBar.shtml

At heart, I'm not a techie. I'm a Mac guy: first purchase 1984, and I discovered long-shafted Torx drivers and risked my life inside that little box soldering on the motherboard within mm of the back end of its CRT, "protected" only by a feeble grounding strap, to cram a $2000 5 MB (that's right, MEGA, not tera- or even gigabyte) hard drive into it, but that was 33 years ago. I can no longer absorb all the new acronyms: PCM, DTS, ATSC currently mean nothing to me. Here's the scary part of the above blog post for me:



As a Mac guy, I'm seduced by style over geeky substance (but the substance has to be there, too). That's why I've been through 3 Bose Systems that make some of my friends (the same guys who think living room furniture pieces are accessories to refrigerator-sized speakers and McIntosh tube amplifiers that could retire their home heating systems) go into fits of derision. I THINK that's why I'm attracted to Sonos. But I KNOW that I'll be deep in doodoo if my wife can't go from MSNBC to an ABBA vinyl record to streaming Lifehouse from her iPhone without calling me away from the same patient 3 times in 5 minutes.

Thanks so much for reading. I'm sure I can make my subsequent posts WAY shorter by establishing this foundation.

:?
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    25 replies

    jgatie
    May 30, 2017
    Unfortunately, Sonos is not going to solve your remote problem. Your interface is going to be exactly the same with or without Sonos. You need a Harmony Hub remote, which will control all your devices with simple commands like "Watch TV" or "Watch Apple TV". The remote knows the current configuration of your system, and it turns on/off devices and switches inputs accordingly to change from one viewing mode to another. I have two, and aside from initial programming, I have never touched any other remote for any of my devices.
    Trending Lyricist I
    May 30, 2017
    Oops; I edited out the stuff I wanted to quote. Here's the scary part of the linked blog post for me:

    Most TVs can pass 5.1 channel Dolby Digital sound out of their fiberoptic digital outputs (and into the PlayBar) when you are watching TV using the set's built-in ATSC TV tuner, or when you are using the streaming apps (like Netflix, Vudu or Amazon Video) built into the TV itself. But if you're watching movies or shows from a cable box, Blu-ray or DVD player or external streaming box like a Roku, most TVs are unable to pass through a 5.1-channel Dolby Digital signal from the source device through the TV and out the fiberoptic port.
    Trending Lyricist I
    May 30, 2017
    Unfortunately, Sonos is not going to solve your remote problem. Your interface is going to be exactly the same with or without Sonos. You need a Harmony Hub remote, which will control all your devices with simple commands like "Watch TV" or "Watch Apple TV".

    I appreciate your advice. I'm aware of Harmony, but I'm not sure of how difficult it will be for me to set one up, nor of how easily my spouse will understand using it.

    However, the big issues for me are three in number:
    1. When I'm done buying a new sound system, will I really get surround sound from my TV, my DVR, my 4K BluRay player, my Apple TV, and the occasionally-plugged in (I should say, plugged in just where?) MacBook Pro?
    2. Will I be able to stream audio TO the home theater system, and occasionally LISTEN to BlueTooth headphones FROM the system
    3. Besides the Sonos System and SOME spouse-friendly, husband-programmable remote, what other hardware will I need to buy? A surround sound transcoder (sounds too techie); an A/V receiver (in order to get the VCR, phono, PS4, occasional MacBook Pro, and BlueTooth sources INTO the system), an HDMI splitter (and, if so, will the suggested remote(s) uncomplicated its usage

    Thanks so much for your reply! You're obviously a veteran here!
    Lyricist I
    May 30, 2017
    You have a few questions here
    Single remote: jgatie is correct, the Harmony remotes are excellent for controlling inputs to your TV and all the supporting gear. Most of them are RF though whereas Sonos runs on wifi. So I can not use the Harmony remote to control my Sonos music system that runs throughout my house. Its not an issue for me since when I watch TV (Bluray, etc.) I sit in front of a TV and want a remote. When I play music i can be on the patio, by the pool, in the garage, etc. so the phone based Sonos App is far better
    HDMI inputs: with the harmony remote, you can buy a decent receiver that switches HDMI. You can switch at the TV level but they never have enough inputs so I always use my receiver
    5.1 to Sonos should be solved if the source is a receiver. Buy the correct receiver though because Sonos products usually have a built in amp. You have to send a non-amplified source to Sonos, not treat them as speakers.
    The iPhone app for Sonos is awesome!!! So easy my wife has NEVER asked me for help :)
    I connect my MacBook to my receiver via Google Chromecast. $35 for HD and $69 for 4k. Its simple and hard to beat
    Airgetlam
    May 30, 2017
    Just a minor adjustment to what Abe_Forman has said...the newer versions of the Harmony remote system do in fact also control wifi sources.

    I have a Harmony Elite in my home, and love it. Don't use it much for Sonos purposes, but it controls my lights (Philips Hue), and PS4 quite well, both are not InfraRed devices.
    Bruce
    Trending Lyricist I
    May 30, 2017
    You have a few questions here

    I did start with an apology🆒

    Single remote: jgatie is correct, the Harmony remotes are excellent for controlling inputs to your TV and all the supporting gear. Most of them are RF though whereas Sonos runs on wifi. So I can not use the Harmony remote to control my Sonos music system that runs throughout my house. Its not an issue for me since when I watch TV (Bluray, etc.) I sit in front of a TV and want a remote. When I play music i can be on the patio, by the pool, in the garage, etc. so the phone based Sonos App is far better


    THANK YOU! I'm trying to learn from others' experiences. The guys at Magnolia dissed the Harmony remotes (and Bose) in favor of promoting their in-home setup charges and the stuff they actually sell. One of the sales staff was absolutely certain he could sell me "better" speakers than come with the latest Bose home theater systems even though he'd never heard of, let alone seen or heard their new Omni Jewel satellite speakers.

    Perhaps I don't need front L and R satellite Play 1s for an impressive 5.1 surround sound/4K video experience. Perhaps I should buy those "extra 2" Play 1s anyway and put them in the upstairs bedroom when I want to take along my Mozart or Bach or the Beetles to a different part of the house!

    HDMI inputs: with the harmony remote, you can buy a decent receiver that switches HDMI. You can switch at the TV level but they never have enough inputs so I always use my receiver
    5.1 to Sonos should be solved if the source is a receiver. Buy the correct receiver though because Sonos products usually have a built in amp. You have to send a non-amplified source to Sonos, not treat them as speakers.


    I really DO think I'm beginning to understand how (and why) this works. Any suggestions for that "correct" receiver?

    The iPhone app for Sonos is awesome!!! So easy my wife has NEVER asked me for help :)
    I connect my MacBook to my receiver via Google Chromecast. $35 for HD and $69 for 4k. Its simple and hard to beat


    That may be the most important thing you've told me yet!

    I really do apologize for my introductory novella. I hoped to put all those questions into context and win a bit of sympathy!
    jgatie
    May 30, 2017
    Just a minor adjustment to what Abe_Forman has said...the newer versions of the Harmony remote system do in fact also control wifi sources.

    I have a Harmony Elite in my home, and love it. Don't use it much for Sonos purposes, but it controls my lights (Philips Hue), and PS4 quite well, both are not InfraRed devices.


    That would be Abe_Froman. You know, the Sausage King of Chicago? Leather jacket, white t-shirt, sweater vest. Devastatingly handsome.
    Trending Lyricist I
    May 30, 2017

    HDMI inputs: with the harmony remote, you can buy a decent receiver that switches HDMI. You can switch at the TV level but they never have enough inputs so I always use my receiver
    5.1 to Sonos should be solved if the source is a receiver.


    Sorry, one more question: Am I correct that the overall architecture of this would be for cable R/F to come into my TiVo Bolt 4K DVR, go from there to the receiver, and from there (via HDMI ARC) to the television. that other A/V input sources would connect directly to the receiver by either HDMI or BlueTooth or analog, and that as long as the RECEIVER can handle the video and audio translations, I can (or will be able to, with the right additions to what I buy now) watch in 4K DolbyVision HDR and listen in Dolby 5.1 surround sound using the Sonos stuff I buy this week? AND that because the the television can send the audio from its own embedded apps back from the television to the receiver using that HDMI ARC channel, if there's 5.1 sound embedded in that Neflix stream the TV is processing, the 5.1 sound will come back to the Sonos system (via the receiver) as well?

    In that scenario, is the final connection to the Sonos system a TOSLink digital audio cable?

    (I know that for many community members my questions suggest the persistent 3-year old's repetitive "but WHY, Daddy" pelterings, but I'm hopeful that some other newbies might benefit from your considerate and informed replies as well. Thanks again).
    Airgetlam
    May 30, 2017
    My most sincere apologies, Abe_Froman....and no, I've not spent enough time in Chicago to know that reference.

    jsrnephdoc, I don't think you want to have cable R/F coming into your TiVo? Doesn't the cable box provide an HDMI signal, that plugs in to the TiVo?

    I'll leave the rest to Abe_Froman, the Sausage King of Chicago 🙂
    Bruce
    jgatie
    May 30, 2017