Delay compensation when used with AV receivers



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Userlevel 2
why does Sonos even make the ZP90?
Because my tube amplifier works like a charm with a ZP90?

(but i agree on the delay problem; had the same issue with a Harman Kardonn HS350)
Has there been any acknowledgement from Sonos on this topic?
Welcome to the forums.

Sonos keep an eye on posts here but tend to participate relatively rarely. They have a habit of not discussing potential future developments.
Userlevel 1
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Welcome to the forums.

Sonos keep an eye on posts here but tend to participate relatively rarely. They have a habit of not discussing potential future developments.


Ah, Thanks Ratty. I'll keep my fingers crossed with everyone else 🙂
Userlevel 3
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This thread is of particular relevance to me as I take delivery on Monday of a Cullen modified 96kHz Re-clocker ZP90. I plan to connect this by coax cable to use the internal DAC within my HK AVR4500, normally used for home theatre surround sound processing. I recently realised it can handle 96kHz, and indeed 192kHz, signals natively. My original thought had been to add a W4S DAC-1, but I have now decided to walk before I run on this to gain some experience especially with the echo/delay, subject of this topic. The DAC-1 may/may not now happen!

Having just installed a ZP120 plus a pair of Linn Sweetspots into my Bathroom zone yesterday (chilled to Handel's Water Music in the bath last night, LOL), I grouped all four upstairs zones together a few minutes ago (that's 2xZP120; 1xS5; 1xZP90) and synch is first class as I move from room to room, more than acceptable.

I have two fall back options up my sleeve for party mode downstairs (eventually the above mentioned Cullen ZP90; 1 existing S5; and a new ZP120)...
1) Feed the ZP90 analogue o/p to the AVR4500 Direct FL+FR i/p, ie use it just as an amp, no digital stuff in the path.
or
2) If this is still problematic, I may just buy another S5 for the high quality listening zone, exclusively to be used for party mode situations. Bit messy and costly, but should be OK.

I plan to mock up this new high quality listening zone ASAP to hear what actually happens with zone grouping. Will post my findings.

Having just installed a ZP120 plus a pair of Linn Sweetspots into my Bathroom zone yesterday


Off topic, but out of interest how do you find the Sweetspots? My main complaint with them is their inefficiency which means they don't go very loud, but you've said before this probably isn't a problem for you.

Just wondered how you felt now you have them in and have used them in anger?

Cheers,

Keith
Userlevel 3
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Interesting comment from rune re his "pure direct" mode... guess I will just need to wire up my new ZP90 ASAP, and have a listen to hear what happens! Certainly +1 from me on some kind of delay tweaking in future upgrades to the Sonos system.

Majik, can't disagree about speaker efficiency re the Sweetspots. Certainly have to crank up the volume a bit more in the Bathroom zone. And they go loud enough for me! I spent a few moments listening to my favorite station KBPK, and the audio quality has a crispness to it which cuts through the unavoidable background noise of the extraction fan situated in the ceiling void above. Bass performance is surprisingly good for such tiny units.

I did not set out to get quality listening in the "smallest room", and certainly did not want to spend a lot on it. I am delighted... it has worked out just fine!
Userlevel 3
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Just a quick note to say that my Cullen modified 96kHz Re-clocker ZP90 from Wyred 4 Sound (via UK dealer) is now lashed up to my HK AVR4500 for testing. Initially things were not good -- I thought I had zapped one of my speakers, or my amp had a duff channel. A Burst of VERY LOUD audio from one channel only followed by silence. Using its own FM Tuner as source, and patiently checking all the settings, this was found to be a configuration error with speaker setup.

So the ZP90 worked first time out of the box, with a quality that already marks it out as special! It is using a coaxial cable link (IXOS 105) to the HK amp's own internal DAC to decode the 96kHz PCM data stream. Did not even need a software update.

Most importantly for this thread, when grouped with an adjacent zone, there is no audible delay between the zones that I can detect. In fact, if I group it with the zone already established in the same room where testing is taking place, both zones together sound as one. RESULT!

NB: This post is based on a very quick and totally un-scientific appraisal. If I come across anything untoward as my initial excitement abates, I will report back.
Userlevel 2
I also need this.

It's exactly this type of added value which makes the cost of a Sonos-system worthwhile. I won't be purchasing mine until it's implemented.
Userlevel 2
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Have been waiting for this feature and hoped I might find it with the new release, but so far nothing.

I still enthusiastically recommend Sonos, but I don't recommend the ZP90. It's a shame, really, that people can't effectively use Sonos in what is likely their "best" AV room.

I especially liked the suggestion above to allow each zone to have its own configurable "I delay by xx ms" setting. This is far better than having to manually adjust each other zone to add a delay.

It also takes care of a system with TWO zones with surround sound receivers. For example, if the Theatre adds 200 ms and the living room adds 100 ms, then when both zones are included in the party Sonos can delay the living room by 100 ms and all other zones in the house by 200 ms, but if the Theatre is not in the party then everything EXCEPT the living room gets a 100 ms delay.

VERY clever solution . . . so now what? 🙂
I agree with jbs, dissapointed this wasn't in the new update. When friends are round for a party the main room is the sitting room (with zp90 and AV receiver) and most people comment about the poor syncing between the zones (echoing type sound that can be heard as soon as you leave the sitting room.
This feature is needed to complete what is otherwise a very good system.

RobinGB
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I've got an Onkyo TX SR875 connected to my wireless ZP80 in the living room via coax; in the bedroom a pair of analogue monaural tube amps connected to a “wired” ZP80. The Okyo lags behind ~500 – 750 ms (!) in “Stereo” listening mode, but even switching to “Direct” only reduces the lag to ~100 – 200 ms.

And, as someone else noted, “Direct” mode bollixes bass management — the receiver won't output to my subwoofer in this mode.

So I'd like to add my vote to the masses clamouring for a delay management feature!

Cheers,

— CZ
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OK, I need to revise the delay times — they’re off by an order of magnitude (e.g., s/b ~50 – 75 ms).

Also, it turns out my A/V sync was not set to 0 ms; changing that eliminates the delay in “Direct” and “Pure Audio” modes and brings it down to a tolerable level in “Stereo” mode (< 5 ms).

Still would like to see a delay management feature in Sonos, ’though.
Userlevel 2
Its all been said before. Sonos, you'll sell three more house-fulls of your product to me if you can add a delay feature. Plus get a bunch of word-of-mouth praise from me to anyone who will listen. But as it stands, no more cash or talk will be dispensed.
Joel
Userlevel 2
Nothing to add here, everything has been explained in great detail in this thread already. Please add the "delay this zone by n milliseconds" feature!

For completeness: I'm running a ZP120 in the living room and a ZP90 connected to a Yamaha YRS-1000 in the master bedroom.

The Yamaha adds a slight delay to the input signal (trough both analog and S/PDIF inputs, even with all sound tweaking & gimmicks disabled). This makes group mode Useless (with a capital U) for me.

Nuff said. Life goes on.
Userlevel 2
Had the same problem with a Harman Kardon amp. Ditched the amp, kept the Sonos... 😉
Userlevel 2
I have a Pioneer VSX-920 AV receiver that is totally out of sync with my other 3 zones (1 x S5, 2 x ZP80's, 1 x ZP120).

I've tried plugging the ZP80 in using analogue cables with the Pioneer set to Pure Direct and Direct - but the delay still exists and means I have to drop it out when having a party - because it just sounds too bad

I'm just about to buy a DAC (DACMagic) for another zone and am worried the same thing is going to happen - and I might end up with 2 out of 4 zones being out of sync...

Now linking Zones for me was one of the reasons for investing in Sonos - and this is no longer possible..

As a new feature, it would be great to use the zone with the greatest delay as a baseline and then add a small amount of delay to each of the other zones - so they all end up being in sync.

There must be a way to add a delay to each zone player - and as a user I'd be quite competent at manually adjusting the delay to get the perfect sync using my good old ears

I would love this feature added - as I feel sad that I once had the perfectly sync'd house - but now this is no longer the case
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I too am having the same issue with zp90 connected to pioneer Vsx-1120 receiver. Not good at all in party mode. The echo is pretty bad.

My receiver is slightly behind the other zones so a delay setting at the receiver seems to make things worse. At least in my case.

Please fix Sonos!!!!. All other zones are great but the zp90 used with other zones pretty much sucks.

Thx
Userlevel 2
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My receiver is slightly behind the other zones so a delay setting at the receiver seems to make things worse. At least in my case.

Unless I'm mistaken, everyone in this thread is in the same situation you're describing. I don't think anyone is contemplating a delay at the receiver, what we're saying is that inputting the receiver's delay as a variable of that zone would allow every OTHER zone to adopt a corresponding delay.

It can never be the case that a receiver would be ahead of the rest of the zones since Sonos is synced to have the same noise exit each unit at the same time, so the receiver would have to be playing the sound before the Sonos sent it over. Predictive Audio! 🙂
+1 vote.

Returned a new Yamaha AV unit yesterday because the sync issue was intolerable.

The replacement Denon (2312CI) is much better on Straight/Pure Direct but still very bad on any other mode that utilized the sub and surround.

Delay feature.. a must-have!
Userlevel 2
Ditto. Have 3 x S5's, 2 x ZP90's (one connected to Sony TV speakers, and one to a Surround Sound system). In party mode, the two ZP90's are out by about the same (a fraction of a second...whatever that is), and result in the same echo everyone else is getting.

Come on Sonos - it's a great system...this would make it perfect. Any chance of an early Christmas present ? 😉
Userlevel 2
I NOW have the same issue but It worked fine before I connected an optical cable so back to phonos for me.

This is with a ZP90 and Onkyo 876
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I NOW have the same issue but It worked fine before I connected an optical cable so back to phonos for me.

This is with a ZP90 and Onkyo 876


My setup is via optical as well. I haven't tried regular RCA connections to see if the problem is still there.

Is anyone connected via RCA having this issue?
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My setup is via optical as well. I haven't tried regular RCA connections to see if the problem is still there.

Is anyone connected via RCA having this issue?


Yes, every time I've had this issue it's been via RCA. I rarely use the optical outs on the Sonos for that matter.

The delays I've seen have come from processing by the receiver, so it's not surprising that decoding an optical signal would add some time to that (compared to the other zones which are simply sending electrical impulses straight to the drivers in the speakers) but signal processing of any sort in the receiver will cause the delay.

Some receivers (as has been mentioned elsewhere) allow a stripped down mode that eliminates such processing, but not all do, and it doesn't always resolve the problem. The delay being proposed would solve the problem 100% of the time.
Userlevel 2
+1 for this feature request from me
Userlevel 2
If I set my av amp to stereo or direct its fine but if I ask it to do any processing its out of sync.