Yes I’ve had this discussion with other friends and that’s why I mentioned the 24/48 audio quality. I did go onto use a USB-C to USB-C cable only from an iPad Pro to the Ace and no external DAC and that showed up-to 24/48 audio - so my thoughts are that’s perhaps what the Ace internal DAC supports - other friends have reported seeing 24/48 too.

It would be nice though to see it confirmed, although anything over 16/44 is not likely going to make a difference to what I seem to be able to hear.

Ok thanks.

Andrea. 
 

I have found these lossless ‘placebo’ logos quite misleading, I don’t trust them.

eg Apple Music will display a lossless logo, clicking shows 24/48 when I Airplay to Sonos, but checking bandwidth from AP to Sonos speaker its around 1Mbs, 24/48 would be around 2.5-3Mbs.

Playing same track via Apple Music service in Sonos App will consume 3-4Mbs, but without 24/48 logo.

But of course it must sound better with the logo? 

Whenever I do see these type of threads, either in this community, or elsewhere online, I always think that it infers that people can’t often tell the difference (myself included) between 16/44 and higher bit/sample rates, simply by listening to the audio itself and that the majority rely on seeing a visual representation (label/display/badge etc.). I personally believe though CD quality lossless audio 16/44 is usually as good as it gets for my own hearing. Anything over that, I doubt I would be able to identify in any A/B test - I would (hand on heart) just be guessing. 

The thing with hires music is more about the mastering than the bitrate, a well mastered 16/44 track will probably sound better than a 24/192 average file but the reverse is also true a well mastered 24/192 will blow you away with the detail and quality of the sound.

I  am lucky enough to be able to hear differences in low quality sound from poor to well mastered tracks but in my experience there’s way more well mastered 16/44 tracks than higher resolution ones 

In closing if it sounds good to you then it’s good enough for you

@Ken_Griffiths

If the different versions come from the same source mix then most likely, especially with a Sonos speaker.

Where it can sound obviously different is that Studios already had Cd quality 16/44.1 on the streaming service, for years but no 24 bit/hires version. The hires versions they then upload are a new remaster, often with a different sound engineer so end up a differently mixed release and don’t replace the existing 16/44.1 with the new mix.

Some owners will remaster all versions and create a new release, because people seem to love rebuying the same music over and over again. Yes, I’m being slightly cynical, some albums do benefit if the original release was an awful mix. At this point all versions are back to being the same mix again.

@craigski

lossless, hires is a marketing departments dream. And like the mobile phone pixel count arms race, marketing love people chasing higher numbers.

All of my Qobuz digital purchases happen to be hires lossless because it is the cheapest version with my subscription discount. It’s also often the cheapest way to buy the music I want.

If Qobuz only have the CD version, then it’s usually cheaper just to buy the CD.

In my car, while I can play upto 24/48 it’s pointless. The sound system in my previous car was ridiculously good, but anything more than a decent quality mp3 is pointless with the roof down 

We are back on topic, Sonos Ace could help with that specific use case? 

Don’t know which country he is in but in the UK he would probably get pulled over by the police

therefore listening to a lossless audio file from MacBook via Bluetooth or USB cable does not change anything since the output value is 16 bit 48 Khz...so where are they lossless?

I’d have to ask the Wife to drive. I have to say the Ace ‘noise cancelling’ is really very good - not that we have a ’convertible’ to go out and test these things, but ANC, in general, works well for me.

Once again, you are confusing a codec, which encodes the sound and compresses it into a file, with bit-depth/sample rate, which just determines how much of a dynamic range (quietest to loudest range) and frequencies sampled (0 Hz up to ½ of the sample frequency).  A lossless codec means whatever goes in, comes out exactly the same.  A lossy codec means some data is removed in order to compress the file more, and the decoder estimates what the removed data is in order to get back as much of the original as possible. 

By the way, all Bluetooth is lossy.  Some Bluetooth codecs are better than others, but all are lossy. 

ok so what the Mac detects is correct then?
Andrea.

But I don't understand why other headphones like the Beats Studio pro with USB C cable can choose 24 bit 192 khz. Ah the Ace connected with its 32 bit 192 khz 3.5 jack cable but the audio is heard at a much lower level than the USB connection... Another mystery...

Mostly because that is what the digital audio processor inside the headphones, USB dac to 3.5mm cable, device at each end of a usb-usb cable supports. Very few companies design their own processing chips and buy components from other companies. A single processing chip often targets multiple market sectors. Which chip a device manufacturer chooses is down to what fits their requirements and costs.

Marketing may then decide to use it as a feature because they know their target market responds to the “bigger/higher number is better“ marketing.

In general when talking about digital music, 16 bit Linear PCM sampled at 44.1Khz is the baseline minimum for what is classed as lossless audio as a source. Anything above that is also considered lossless.

It could be an audio cd, it could be a saved in a Wav, flac, alac, whatever format, as long as when decoded back to it’s original digital it is exactly the same as the digital source it was created from.

Studios when working with digital audio, usually record and manipulate the audio at a higher bitrate and sample rate. There are benefits for a studio to work in 24 bit, or higher, because the dynamic range means they don’t need to really worry about the input levels on mics and instruments, boosts or cuts when digital effects and processing are applied. That can all be levelled after recording. Engineers get on and do their thing, and somewhere a decision is made for the bit size and sample rate for the final product.

As consumer device targeted chips became cheaper supporting higher bit sizes and sample rates, an area of the audio listening market decided they were being short changed by the music industry and they must have the hires digital the studios used. Labels, rights holders, device manufacturers and marketing realised there was money to be made so here we are with terms like “full lossless”, “HD”, “Ultra HD”, “Hires” and devices advertising increasingly higher bit size and sample rates.

There are benefits to consumer devices being able to process digital audio in 24 bit, especially as room correction and other digital processing is becoming increasingly common in stereo playback.

Thanks. 
however with the 3.5 jack the Sonos Ace have a much lower volume than the USB C counterpart. So from Mac the audio quality is considered to be the bare minimum…

I did some additional testing with the Sonos Ace. My Windows 11 desktop PC and laptop both detect the Ace as a 16-bit/48kHz audio device, my M1 Mac Mini does as well. On my 2020 iPad Pro 11” Amazon Music will supposedly output  at 24-bit/192kHz, and Roon Arc will do at most 24-bit/48kHz. My Samsung Galaxy Fold 5 using the apps UAPP and Rune Arc both exhibit the same behaviour, although in UAPP when I try to enable bit perfect mode it complains that it cannot resample the audio. HiBy Music on the other hand is only able to output at 16-bit-48kHz to the Ace.

I believe there is probably some strange resampling behaviour going on with iOS and Android, but as we can see with Windows and MacOS the connection is 16-bit/48kHz, which confirms what I was told by my Sonos contact when I reached out to them.

The DAC in the Beats Studio Pro is only capable of up to 24-bit/48Khz.

I get 24/48 with the Ace linked USB-C to USB-C. See attached…

I get 24/48 with the Ace linked USB-C to USB-C. See attached…

 

Tablet IPad? Program Used?

Thanks.

Andrea.

I get 24/48 with the Ace linked USB-C to USB-C. See attached…

 

Yeah, this is a bit weird. 

Off topic; do Amazon brand audio quality (assume they refer to 24bit/192hz) as Ultra HD?!?  

I get 24/48 with the Ace linked USB-C to USB-C. See attached…

 

Like I said, I believe there’s some resampling being done on either the OS or the app side, otherwise it would be possible to have this sample rate on Windows and MacOS.

iPad Pro 3rd Gen - Apple Music UltraHD subscription - Here’s Amazon’s definition of SD/HD/UHD audio…

But as you can see the playing App track shown, has a sample rate of 96kHz - so it’s not going to be the App in this case and I think iDevices will support outputs to DAC’s of at least 24/192 - as we’ve seen that when using the UGreen DAC earlier - this points to the DAC in the Ace as supporting 24/48 in my humble opinion, but it would be nice if this information could be confirmed (or otherwise), but that’s what I’m seeing here.

I get 24/48 with the Ace linked USB-C to USB-C. See attached…

 

Like I said, I believe there’s some resampling being done on either the OS or the app side, otherwise it would be possible to have this sample rate on Windows and MacOS.

If the Ace only support 16/48 over usb then the iPad would need to downsample to 16/48 otherwise the Ace wouldn’t be able to decode and play the audio. That should show in the output in the photo above assuming it is accurately reporting. Given my experience of the Amazon Prime App and AppleTV I wouldn’t assume 100% the Amazon App is showing the right thing.

Dolby Atmos/Sonic Spatial Audio for headphones only supports 16/48, so if you have Dolby Atmos for headphones or Sonic enabled, in Windows you won’t get any option to select a different bit size or sample rate, 16/48 is your only option. I don’t know if a Mac would let you select something different and automatically switch off Dolby Atmos.

16/48 rather than 24/48 seems an odd choice over usb for stereo audio, if the main target is spatial audio, then potentially there is no perceived benefit to supporting 24/48 if it costs more.

Assuming it isn’t a usb driver issue or Dolby Atmos/Spatial Audio for headphones isn’t enabled then Windows and MacOs should pick up all the supported formats.

Definitely an odd one with inconsistent reporting when plugged in to different devices. In reality if it wasn’t for the hires marketing machine, nobody would be any wiser because there would be nothing showing them any values 

I can think of a couple of reasons why 3.5mm → usb would have a lower volume than usb → usb

mac → 3.5mm cable to usb → ace

In this situation you have 2 independent volume controls. The Mac and the headphones, so if only using the volume control on one device you might not reach max volume.

If both the Mac and Ace are at max volume and it is still lower than you like, then the 3.5mm to usb cable could be impacting the max volume.

The output jack on the Mac has a max power level. Similar to how different impedance headphones can be quieter (assuming same efficiency drivers) the Mac output might not have enough power at max volume to reach a high enough volume level using the 3.5mm cable, so when the ADC converts it back to digital at the usb end it is a lower volume than using a direct usb connection.

Headphone impedance can be a source of frustration on PCs as the power output from the motherboard 3.5mm socket isn’t enough to drive all headphones at volumes people want.

mac → usb → ace

In this situation the ace are the volume control. The Mac keeps out the way and doesn’t alter the volume it just sends the digital signal to the ace for it to decode.

In iOS there is a Dolby Atmos option which can be switched off, but Apple default the option to ‘Automatic’ - so it enables/disables, as required. The Wireless Streaming Audio Quality Settings can be adjusted by the user too in the iOS settings - see the attached screenshots 

Within the Amazon Music UHD App the user can simply tap the graphic to switch the streaming audio between Atmos audio and HD/Ultra HD stereo - that’s the image on the iPad screen I posted earlier with the Ace - the left panel is Atmos audio - tapping the right panel switches it to HD/UHD stereo quality audio (and vice versa)… er .. allegedly.‍♂️

Hope that makes sense and clarifies things further.