Sonos - S2 - without internet

I think we can assume, without specific statements, that as S2 currently seems to need it to start up, it will need a connection to do so going forward. 

I, too, am in a similar, internet precarious situation, for at least a minimum of two more years, and potentially longer, before I can get better internet service.  I’m going to continue to use S2, since my internet ‘down’ time is, while not zero, infrequent. It’s just music, after all. And if power is out anyway, so is internet.

 I suspect the number of customers in this type of situation are not significant enough to make a blip on Sonos’ radar, and invest any code time on. 

I’ll try and remember to test that amongst things I’m testing over the next few days.

In an ideal world, even though the app appears to need Internet atm, it it’s a hard requirement it should cope with internet outages. That may mean needing to checkin periodically, but still operate locally when the internet is unavailable.

I think certain features need internet to be enabled to show in the app, there are internet calls to a feature-update endpoint and in a thread about using dns/ad blockers an endpoint was identified as required access for in-between update feature switch on.

Right now, you might want to wait if primary usage is going to be from a NAS. There are still some bugs and improvements needed which may impact you.

I can’t find the post, but when search was first added back for local libraries it did require an active internet connection to work. This was to be changed in a future release. I didn’t spot anything in the recent release notes to say that has changed yet.

Thanks for responding. When we started with Sonos - back in maybe 2006/7 - being able to play music from a NAS was pretty much the primary use case; I guess that's now become a legacy use case that, as you write, maybe is no longer worth their investment.

Spence talks about a product roadmap but, of course, that's not something shared with customers. There's no point in us investing in the upgrades I mentioned if NAS / ‘local only’ will no longer be available.

We invested in a generator a couple of years ago, so we can still ‘function’ when we have a utility outage.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

That would be great - in the absence of clarity from the company, a real-world test would be very helpful; understood that it would simply be a moment in time / current release test, of course.

We certainly won't be pulling the upgrade trigger right now.

As an aside, I wonder if bringing back a senior developer - name escapes me - is an indication that Sonos may be reviewing their architectural choices for the May release. If they truly have moved volume control to require some type of cloud interaction, that might explain the issues people are seeing with those functions - round-trip lag, volume / group state maintenance issues, etc.

Thanks again for your input.

Sounds like all that hardware can run S1, which for your use case seems like the best plan to guarantee functionality without an internet connection.

Well, right now, we don't have problems running S1 - just unclear to me what the path for that version looks like; not to mention what happens when the hardware starts to cr*p out (we are still using a couple of boxes - ZP80 and ZP100 - from our initial 2007 purchase; talk about well-made - makes me wonder if the new generation Port and Amp products will have that type of longevity).

It's not lost on me that our 2007 investment is well-amortised at this point!

Maybe I should just start hunting down legacy ZPs🤔

Thanks for your input.

I have mom on S1 and it will take a major dumpster fire to get me to update her. It just works, the one service she uses works and she knows how to use it.

Pretty good for a lady ticked off that Lego says she will be too old to use them next month. Also got an attitude that the Lego “Birthday Cake” she has had for years only goes to 99, the spouse is working on a fix for that using our spare Lego pile.

Once Sonos clears the current mess I may look into getting her a Ray or a Beam for TV use but she just isn’t up for any new aggravations or major changes without a good reason.

I certainly have had no issue running music from my NAS while on S2, except of course when there is no power for either the speakers or the network. There has been zero indication that Sonos is ‘withdrawing’ support for local libraries. 

Thanks for your input👍

Good for her! 99 is the new 70😉

And the devices you mention will work on S1, so that obviates the need to migrate to S2.

It would be fascinating to know how many S1-only devices are still being used - Sonos obviously have the data - and how that plays into the expected life of S1.

Thanks for responding.

I think one reason the new controller uses an Internet connection is so that SONOS can track exactly how much a given model is used. The data can be used to decide when/if support can be withdrawn or an updated replacement should be developed.

They might be in for a surprise then…

Seriously though, I think they’ve had sight of that for a while as when you logon to the main Sonos website it knows your system and state.

I think the new S2 reliance on internet is more about trying to make it more out of the house capable. They just haven’t done it very well yet… 

I certainly have no problem with Sonos logging that info, but actually depending on an internet connection in order to work is a different story altogether.

From all I’ve been reading - no first-hand knowledge - it seems that even volume control may require an internet round-trip; I really hope they didn't decide to move what is purely a local function - particularly a function that people expect to respond instantly - to the cloud.

Hi @John_61, volume control does not require an internet round trip. Per Andy Pennell, however, volume control is much chattier than in the Old Days …

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-happened-sonos-app-technical-analysis-andy-pennell-wigwc

Thanks for that link - I had stumbled across that, but hadn't read his updates.

The now working - revert to S1 option seems to be finding a few takers here in the forums. That sure is a direction I’d be thinking Sonos would be hoping folks don’t go.

Just reading through that article again, and the recent update, it's unclear - to me, at least, that volume control doesn't require an internet out-and-back. Andy does indeed say that volume control is more 'chatty', but with what, if not the Sonos cloud🤔

Reading the network logs is not an exact science, but I could not see cloud calls during volume. (It does use a local version of the cloud API, which also means webockets and the crypto overhead I described). Even with a single device group, volume responsiveness on my system still sucks, compared to the instant response of UPnP-based Sonos apps on the same hardware/network.

If I don’t hit the dot exactly before I slide volume, it appears to be unresponsive. If I hit the dot its instant, even in group.

I would prefer an Apple Music type volume control, where you can touch anywhere on slider, and slide, ie not have to hit the ‘dot’ exactly before sliding.

The volume control behaviour is annoyingly inconsistent. 

In non-group mode, even if you are accurate, you get no haptic feedback until you move your finger left/right.. so if you just hold your finger without moving it, you get no haptic feedback and nothing happens. If you’re not close, and just press and lift, the volume goes up or down by 1 number, depending on which side you were, but no haptic feedback at all... so if you’re too close to the dot and just press/release… nothing. 

In group mode it’s different, pressing and holding your finger gets a slight delay before you get haptic feedback and then the group volume screen pops up… but because you get that unexpected initial feedback and something happens on screen you lift… then have to go again to actually change volume… but, if you click anywhere on the master volume line the main screen pops up and you get a haptic click...

I think it would be preferable in group volume mode that if you press and don’t let go, you don’t get the haptic feedback, the main group screen doesn’t pop-up, and the volume behaved the same way non-group does but changes the group master volume. If you want to then change an individual speakers volume in the group just press/click anywhere on the volume line to get the group screen flash up, and pick the volume control you are after. It’s distracting when it always swings up and you don’t expect it because the haptic feedback’s inconsistent. 

My view anyway… 

My understanding is that the final version of S2 prior to May 7th still functions - whilst there'd be some humble pie involved, that should be re-released, I think, alongside the existing beta😉

Re-releasing the old app would be simple were it not for Ace support.

The main complication (ignoring Ace) as I see it is that they’d have to come up with a firmware downgrade tool to put you back to the level of speaker code we are at before the new app came along as well to undo some of the damage there too. However given that they have an S2 to S1 downgrade tool it wouldn’t be completely uncharted territory. Then just disable the update nagging. 

I guess the difference this time round is that some people’s systems are in such a state they may be difficult to perform a firmware update of any description on, unless using an older interface would be more reliable? 

I do not believe they need to change the firmware to allow for an app downgrade: they can take the v79 app, change the minver firmware check, and re-publish it (with a v81).

I would like them to fix the Collections indexing problem, and revert their SSDP changes, (both firmware items) but neither are essential to rollback the app.