:)

I’m fairly sure I have not had any issues with the app since it was updated - other than one of my Symfonisk speakers falling off the network (which came back after a reboot, some patience, and some luck!). Early on I was lamenting on here the lack of per-song options (e.g. editing queue, or adding to end of queue, Play Next, etc), and needed help to know the tap up and down for volume, but generally not made any adjustments as it has worked for me so far.

I do still sometimes have issues in Lossless not showing when the playlist is a mix of Atmos and Lossless, and also crossfading doesn’t work on Lossless or Atmos tracks (which was a problem prior to the app update).

But since the update, the system has never failed to load, or find the system. Unless I have forgotten an issue, which is possible!

That is a very simplistic response, 2 of those issues can be attributed to things outside of an owners network and control along with poor app design.

• "Owner must be logged in" loop bug

Sonos either run or pay a 3rd party to provide oauth servers and services used for login. The app makes a call out to an external oauth endpoint under the Sonos domain. As long as the user isn’t blocking the endpoint using a Pihole or similar, then they have no control over what happens with their ISP, the various internet exchanges and routes used by backbone internet providers, Sonos cloud hosting providers or servers.

Occasionally the old app would show me a notification that my Sonos account wasn’t logged in. It would then clear up when after background retries it received a successful response from the Sonos servers. That login failure had zero to do with my local network.

A significant change in the app appears to be the new app refuses to let a user do anything if it can’t login or the oauth token expires before it can be refreshed. The old app did not require the Sonos account to be logged or still have a valid oauth token to perform any playback actions.

That change in behaviour is entirely on Sonos and entirely on them to ensure their app behaves appropriately when either their infrastructure or an external to the user internet issue occurs. Looping suggest a bug with the app using the failed cached response and not even bothering to retry the call properly. The bigger question is why does the new app now prevent any use if the login fails when the previous app didn’t?

• "Unable to register your Sonos product" bug

The again involves making a call over https, to the backend Sonos services. Unless the user has blocked Sonos endpoints, the cause is unlikely to be within the local network or control of an end user. This is entirely the responsibility of Sonos to ensure they have a robust application and method of handling what happens to requests to their servers. Whether that is suitable retries dues to shifting network routes on backbone providers or within their own service hosting, there is little to nothing a user can do to fix this other than constantly retrying at different time intervals.

While some things with Sonos can be affected by local equipment interfering with the multicast and local network, it is still the responsibility of Sonos, who are targeting a primarily non-technical market with ‘plug and play’ products, to ensure it’s products are robust enough for the market they target.

Of course they can’t test every combination of switch, router, WiFi access point, but not every ‘network’ issue is due to the users equipment. If it worked in a previous app, then there is no reason for it to be broken in a newer app.
 

These are digital systems shifting data around using mostly typical protocol standards that have existed for years, your mechanical analogy makes little sense because my switch, router, WiFi AP, Ethernet cable and existing Sonos devices don’t wear out and suddenly start breaking because a new app is released.

Yep…Says me and anyone who can look at the premise being put forth to justify the class action. But…go ahead and continue to promote this class action nonsense. BTW… have you and your other antagonists thrown your hats into the ring .  Action speaks louder than words and put an end to your boisterous posturing! Just Do it!!!

I have no time or interest in any kind of class action, I was merely posting how silly your claims are that they aren't even bugs and that they can ALL be traced back to local issues.

The previous post makes some great points about just how many other things are at play in the update.  I made a similar point a month or so back that ISPs and routing all have a big part to play now so to still be insisting that if one user's setup is OK with a specific ISP or speed (speed should be all but irrelevant for the comms that are happening) then all other issues must be local is more and more futile by the day.

Whatever!

In that case I’d be complaining to my ISP to get it sorted - and not put blame on the Apps/devices, which is what some users may do …and there are some users posting now that clearly already had existing issues with their S2 App aswell in any event, that’s looking back through their community post history. It makes it difficult to identify the real issues and  some have joined the forum too, saying their speakers stop playing mid-song and that highly likely has nothing whatsoever to do with the new Sonos App.

Seriously though, other than a lack of understanding how things work now and being seemingly unwilling to accept there are bugs in some Sonos software, is there anything at all you have based your assertions on that there are no bugs and ALL issues are related to local network issues?

In spite of Sonos working through them and acknowledging most of them.

If the previous detail was still too technical, another ‘Whatever! ‘ will do.

Yes, songs stopping mid-song almost certainly has little or nothing to do with the update, I'm obviously referring to the many issues being reported since the update.

I'm wondering how the conversation goes with the ISP that ‘some 3rd party software previously working fine has been changed and now doesn't - the company has a plan and are working through it but would you investigate too please?’ would go.

I could of course easily create these type of images (attached), or even a screen capture video …and claim it’s the Sonos App at fault and say that it takes one, or two, minutes to open the App  - so it is difficult to sometimes know where the real truth may lie @sjw, particularly when the App actually does honestly work well here. 

Apart from the missing features, that we all know are being restored, I don’t see any App crashes, it all works fine to play my chosen audio (MSP/line-in/TV audio etc.) …but I do fully accept that some areas in the App seem to be (or are) slightly slower than the previous S2 App and I have mentioned those things in my forum posts too, but it’s certainly not as bad as some claim. If it works here for myself, family and friends, then in my view, it is more likely something closer to Home that is causing the problem, even if that perhaps stems over to the users ISP connection.

I have seen users complaining of missing speakers, who had that same problem anyway with their S2 App (according to their past posts) and groans from some that their local library doesn’t work, which in quite a few cases (not all) stem from them likely using ‘SMBv1’, or an ‘http’ share.

We may disagree on things, but we each have the right to put our own viewpoint forward,  with and without evidence in support. 

Often if I post something that is favourable to Sonos, there are those that step in and tell a user… "The new Sonos App is a POS and to go get SonoPad/Phone" without even attempting to see if the user may have a local issue, that’s perhaps stopping their speaker from showing in the App, or stopping playback mid-track etc.

One thing though that seems ‘for sure’ (to me, at least) - is the S2 App is highly unlikely to ever return and this new App development will continue to move forward no matter what you, I or others may say about it.  

So it’s a case of either using the controller, or not, and whatever type of cloud connections the Sonos App is using, I can only think that also will eventually become the same case for 3rd-party Apps like SonoPad/Phone too - it’s probably only a matter of time IMHO as things continue to move forward.

Hi @sigh,  the oauth server is hosted by Salesforce. While salesforce.com may not be explicitly blocked, I’ve seen the “hopping between domains” behavior cause issues with privacy filtering.

Weve been using SONOS since shortly after it was a thing - over a decade.  I have not been on this forum for years.  Kind of forgot about it.  We have loved the system, and it has worked great.  My favorite thing is that it was easy for my wife to use, and she didn’t need me to help her set up playing whatever she liked.

We have been going through a year + of Xfinity upgrades with them boosting speeds but also disrupting our internet all the time.  Yet, during all of that, no SONOS issues - last thing we’d have thought about.

Now, since this update - and not only the controller, but also firmware updates - we’ve had no end of issues, beyond the near useless “highly awaited” controller update.

The song dropouts and zombie zones and missing zones started for us a few weeks ago after the last firmware update. What else has changed for us?  SONOS software/firmware - that’s it.

I was going to try to see if SONOS support could help track down the issue - even if it is something in our setup.  But guess what - chat unavailable / overwhelmed, I guess.  Calling in is an absurd wait and last time I talked to support weeks ago they said the “issues” were being worked on.

So, I don’t know if your point is that the new software is putting a heavier burden on the local network/internet and unmasking problems that were there all along, or what.  If that is the case, then SONOS should tell us - tell us what is required of the network NOW after the updates and tell us how to get that setup.  And it would not hurt if SONOS support could actually help with any of these issues that we morons are running into.

The thing is @stevepow, is that the Sonos App is a controller (not a player) so, as an example, if you start playback of say a Sonos Radio station (or any MSP provided source) in the App, it plays direct from the source itself (online) to your Sonos product. You could even close the new App and power off the mobile controller device and the audio should still play. 

As far as I’m aware, nothing has changed in that regard, so it’s clearly not going to be the new Sonos App, assuming you have closed it, which you can try as a test, if you like.

If the music is stopping/suffering interruption, which is not happening here, then IMHO it’s not likely related to any recent Sonos changes or their new App, but more likely it’s something closer to Home. Maybe others here will disagree (we shall see), but those are my thoughts as it appears not much has changed in terms of the hardware/playback, although some do claim it has and often blame the new App in some cases.

That may not be it… there might have been an automatic update to your router, or your neighbours may have changed the wireless channel on their network, or your router may have created an IP address conflict when rebooting after the Sonos update.

Or, of course, it may be caused by bugs in the Sonos firmware.  But the nature of the problems makes me think that some local networking issues are almost certainly to blame in this particular case.

May I ask you to  provide a bit more info on your setup, @stevepow ?  e.g. what Sonos speakers do you have and how do they connect to your network?  Which channel is your router using?  Any access points or extenders?

Ken, I think to many users, the App and firmware updates are synonymous and as (many of) the updates happened simultaneously are being used interchangeably.

Some playback issues aside, if someone says they’re having problem X since ‘the App’ was updated, pointing out the App can’t be the cause may help with future terminology and troubleshooting - but often doesn’t necessarily mean they’re referring to the App specifically - but often whole update fiasco in general.

There are so many ‘new’ things in the chain now.

Out of interest, do you agree that “the “bugs” mentioned (to foster a class-action) can ALL be traced back to network issues. The App refresh (which is now more robust) just exposed network issues that were already present; but were able to move along with the old version seemly undetected.”?

I think the user posts in the community vary on a ‘case by case’ basis @sjw. There are users that appear to have a variety of ‘different’ issues and are reporting them with varying degrees of detail and supposition. I don’t know/am not familiar with, US law to really comment on what would foster a class action and I’ve no knowledge personally speaking what network issues were seemingly undetected in the S2 App, that might now be revealing themselves with the new Sonos App, so I guess I can’t rule out/dismiss that comment from @AjTrek1, without having some further information. 

Ken can answer for himself, (Edit: while I was typing he did so) but I’ll chip in too.  In eleven years of posting on this forum, I have seen hundreds of posts like this, describing dropout, missing zones, sound breaking up.  The poster is absolutely convinced that it cannot be local network issues, it must be faulty Sonos.  In at least 95% of cases it turns out to be local network issues.  Nearly always it can be corrected. 

Sonos does make heavy demands on a network - much heavier than most applications, so the network isn’t necessarily faulty.  Maybe Sonos is asking too much for some networks in their existing configuration. So maybe it is better to say that the solution generally involves doing something to the network, not Sonos, It doesn’t mean that the network is at fault.

FWIW, I really dislike the latest app, but as Ken said, it’s just a controller and can’t be responsible for the sorts of problems that @stevepow is experiencing.  System firmware updates could have created problems, but I doubt that they have been that significant.  Plus I have seen them blamed for countless problems over the years, and only on a very few occasions have they been at fault.  Maybe they are on this occasion - I can’t say for certain that they are not. 

Btw, talk of a class action is simply nonsensical.  If you are unfortunate enough to have your life savings disappear to a fraudulent investment scheme, or have your health wrecked by a drug for which the safety tests were faked, then start looking into class actions.  For this, there is not a 1 in a million chance of it even being brought, never mind succeeding.

I have seen this threatened on here on numerous occasions, including when the old app was the new app and disliked by many posters.  Although the dislike has been more intense, widespread and long lasting than at the previous change, and this time I share the dislike.

Yes, there are a variety of different issues being reported here and that’s exactly my question - do you feel they are ALL (a quote, not me capitalising) due to network issues that were already present and the older app more tolerant of - even though we know for a fact the new app and firmware have more network dependency.  I think you know there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of there being legal recourse - otherwise we’d have had it.

After every update there’s always issues - usually resolved with reboots of every device etc.  The issues being experienced here are way above anything I can recall - and have gone on for far, far longer.

Sonos could be doing a massive amount more than they are - stickies, URLs added to the App when certain errors come up (SMB etc.), emails with updates to keep customers updated, ‘owning’ the issues etc. etc..

I know 3 people now who have bought new speakers in the last 3 weeks and all were Sonos users (2 - 5 speakers).  They would certainly have bought others at some point but they just saw their system broken and unable to either play music or edit their queues.  They had very little information or communication to go on and wouldn’t dream of going online to attempt troubleshooting - they liked the plug and play and just expected it.  One was really annoyed (and asked me about it - and I was unable to resolve the issues) and the other two were quite blasé and have just moved on and switched their speakers off.  I highly doubt any will be buying more Sonos speakers though.

We’re going to find out if it’s all too little too late I suppose.  Sonos’ next financials will make very interesting reading.

This could/should have been a great period for Sonos - new ‘from the ground up’ App, new ‘asked for for years’ headphones - I really struggle to imagine how they could have got both things so staggeringly wrong.

Oh dear, based on personal experience of having to integrate global systems with Salesforce they wouldn’t be near the top of my recommendations. I need to get round to having a proper look through what’s changed in where the old vs new app is talking to, more for my own curiosity than anything else.

A quick look shows my speakers and tablet app requests currently disappear into Akamai’s edge, who will be delivering to the Sonos servers in the cloud, rather than direct to the nearest cloud provider edge point.

The website, forum and online controller look to be using okta, so there is hope salesforce aren’t in the mix 

I’ve no idea what privacy controls are in Android these days, but I could see that some of Apple’s controls may hide/mask some information from the Sonos servers. It’s still for Sonos to ensure their system works properly on devices with built in privacy controls.

Companies I’ve worked at could have saved a lot of time and money in development and testing if every time someone had an issue, our other clients got out the large hammer with ‘network’ written on the handle as the first response. 

What do you mean by ‘heavy demands on a network’ ? I’ve seen this mentioned various times over the years in relation to Sonos, but don’t remember seeing it quantified in terms of what that means.

As far as I’m aware, the Sonos stack, similar to MusicCast which predated it by a couple of years and Openhome, is a custom extension built on top of the Upnp AV specification. Unlike network audio standards, such as Dante, AES67, AVB which have defined microsecond or millisecond latency for near realtime multichannel audio and can be demanding, on a network shared with other IP traffic, Sonos is designed for home networks and is(was?) based on underlying standards that don’t even require working dns.

Yes, if Sonos is being used with vlans, daisy chained managed switches, guest/segregated WiFi etc you need to understand how to configure them properly, especially for multicast, but that isn’t a heavy network demand. Not every network device will work, especially the lowest priced supplier of ISP equipment, but that isn’t Sonos specific or a heavy network demand.

As more devices are joined and independently stream music, more network bandwidth will be used, but unless Sonos is using Unicast to every device from the group master that should be very little demand on a network.

Clearly there is something I’m missing about how Sonos works and the minimal impact it has on my network, to repeatedly see people saying it has ‘heavy network demands’ over the years. Or maybe my interpretation of ‘heavy network demands’ is different to what is meant.

@sigh .  I must apologise for understanding very little of your post.  I concede the technical high ground to you.  My own choice of words, “heavy demands”, was not a good one.  I have seen countless posts on here along the lines of “there is nothing wrong with my network, all my other devices work”  But getting a Smart TV to stream from the internet is less of a challenge than getting multiple speakers to stay in touch and sync perfectly.  The single device might function despite IP address conflicts or 2 DHCP servers, But it may make Sonos’ task impossible.  Another example is if some devices connect to the 2.4GHz band and others to 5GHz.  Sonos will be fine if the router bridges the two bands, but some don’t.  Would that be a feature of the network or a fault?  It doesn’t really matter what one calls it.  Sonos requires a network to have particular features that single devices do not.

Thank you for the examples, it helps me understand what you were meaning.

I agree there can be unexpected or random behaviour due to networking equipment. Especially these days with those WiFi routers and access points that keep either the bands or in some cases each WiFi device isolated by default. Things like that aren’t even peculiar or specific to Sonos and give similar issues with other multi-room brands.

I had an old switch and while it had all the required features, it’s software was so badly implemented it didn’t matter if you plugged Sonos, Yamaha, Denon/Marantz, Linn, Bluesound etc or appropriately setup Linux systems into it, things would randomly eventually appear, disappear or just never appear. Nothing to do with any of the audio devices or servers, just garbage software on that particular network switch 

Sonos has its peculiarities, especially with the Ethernet/Sonosnet mix if you network cable more than one speaker. That’s caught me out a couple of times over the years. Forget to disable WiFi and it works fine for ages, then one of the speakers triggers a network change and either causes merry hell with routing loops or randomly gets interruptions and disappearances.

For the most part Sonos has historically been no better or worse with it’s network requirements than alternatives that operate in a similar way.

I generally agree with this, however, I must admit that I cannot say “It’s your network” with the same confidence that I used to.  The change over of the app, and the numerous bugs and missing features, had the unintended consequence of clouding troubleshooting attempts.  When someone claims that they are experiencing a new bug that are not already acknowledged by Sonos, there’s a a good chance it’s a local network issue, but we do know that Sonos is pushing out changes faster than normal and entirely possible that this is a new issue that has yet to be acknowledged yet.

Again, I see this as an unintended consequence of putting out the app to quickly, followed by frequent patches to fix issues.  Confidence has eroded, perhaps just in me personally, to identify an issue as network related vs a new bug.  I imagine Sonos support has similar issues, even though they have better information to work with.  That’s all aside from the fact that many support issues are just people expressing their frustrations rather than looking for actual solutions.

What @John B mentions in one of his posts above has, for the most part, been my experience too over the years that I’ve hung around the Sonos community. Issues reported are quite often (not always) a local issue and this new App (for me at least) isn’t, in many respects, behaving any differently than the previous S2 App. All the Sonos players get their IP addresses, they all show, group/ungroup and play/pause the selected audio via the new App, same as the old App, but navigation is perhaps just a little slower in some areas. 

All my music services and local NAS-library work aswell… I think the new App and Sonos products would not work for anyone, if either software, or product firmware, were at fault, as they are virtually the same for everyone. The only varying factors I can see, are the connected networks and/or controller devices.

I don’t think any of us though should jump to conclusions, either way. I personally just want to see everyone have a working Sonos system, but it’s a difficult task when there are so many variables to consider, including a brand new App in the mix, which adds further complexity to any fault-finding.

In some cases users here, have been ‘steered’ by others to believe that the new App is the root-cause of their problems anyway - I’m not convinced that’s actually the truth for quite a few of the matters reported. It certainly seems ‘highly unlikely’ that the App is the cause in @stevepow’s case above and I’ve seen other ‘similar’ reports on the forum too where users think the new App is to blame for their woes.

Whatever the case anyway, it’s clear the new Sonos App is here to stay.

Exactly @melvimbe 

Indeed.

I couldn't imagine the knowledge and confidence required to believe and state every bug is a local network issue.