Considering leaving Sonos entirely?!

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108 replies

Airgetlam

If only networks worked that way. 

Bruce
ratty

It’s possible for a client to detect if it’s has been handed a duplicated IP. Windows for example has done so for years. AFAIK there’s nothing that the client can then do about it unilaterally.

buzz

 but if the static feature resolve the problem then a update of the firmware would be recommended since this should not be made manualy.  The system should alocate is own ip manualy and switch and ajust if encounter a problem by itself.

This IP address assignment must be done centrally using an established protocol.

Imagine the chaos if you could arbitrarily change a bank account number, perhaps to indicate your birthday, then another account holder changes their number and chooses your old number -- all this while one of your older checks is in the mail. The new owner of your old account number would be somewhat upset when your old check arrives and a lot of time would be wasted in the attempt to straighten this out.

Reserved IP addresses avoids the chaos of various network clients vying for the same address. It’s not quite good enough to ask “is anyone using this address” because the owner might be busy, sleeping or updating and will come back online a fraction of a second after the address query came back negative.

Early in networking all IP addresses were assigned manually with some rather arcane commands. This would be pure misery in the modern era when dozens of phone/pad/computers might arrive simultaneously (in a bar, restaurant, school, or stadium) and a poor network administrator would need to manually enter each device, then remove the device when the user left the premises. Now the DHCP server automatically attempts to take care of this. Address reservation for regular clients avoids misunderstandings.

jgatie

I’ll definitly try this today, but if the static feature resolve the problem then a update of the firmware would be recommended since this should not be made manualy.  The system should alocate is own ip manualy and switch and ajust if encounter a problem by itself.

 

A unit cannot allocate itself a new IP, the DHCP service in the router does that, and it's the router which is the problem in the first place.  If a router loses power or its allocation table is corrupted, it doesn't know the IP addresses that it previously assigned and can start handing out ones which are already in use. 

Sonos is particularly sensitive to this because all the players need to interact with the others.  Also, Sonos updates require a reboot, which means all Sonos devices get a new IP at once, exasperating an already messed up router.  Which is why people blame the Sonos updates, when it is anything but.

The ultimate fix is reserving IP addresses, so each device can only get the IP it was assigned, and no other device can get that IP.

Airgetlam

Can’t like that post enough, @jgatie…way too much shade thrown at Sonos for something they just exercise, not control.

Bruce
Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

In my case I resisted the suggestion to reserve IP addresses. Spent a LOT of hours pouring over very detailed (pfSense) firewall logs looking for DHCP issues and found nothing. Tried a network monitor program to see even more details and was quickly swamped with data that went beyond my skill set.

My Sonos was still messing up at most power failures and updates.

Went ahead and reserved the IP addresses and have not had any similar issue since.

Do not know why it works. Don’t have proof it is needed.

But I know ten minutes clicking my router’s DHCP web page ended the issue for me.

buzz

Thewizard2000,

I don’t know your environment, but my wireless environment can be difficult. There is a medical facility next door and I can sometimes see about 70 access points. A number of access points use channels, 3, 5, and 8, with an occasional 10. The channel 5 system uses 40MHz channel width. It’s difficult to deal with this level of congestion. There can be periods of erratic PING. times.

Overall, I think that SONOS copes well with this environment.

For those users who report that their phone/pad always works, therefore their WiFi is “perfect”, I’m rather sensitive to response times and it is obvious to me that the wireless phone/pad is struggling at times, but not at the point of ‘fail’. I don’t attempt to precisely log each potential event. With respect to external Internet connectivity there is always the potential for rare transient issues there.

With respect to my phone’s 5GHz connection to the gateway, the average latency is reasonable in the 3-5ms range, but there are occasional spikes to the 90ms range and I have observed singular, much longer PINGs. I cannot prove that these events are actual communications failures or some sort of lag in the reporting device. (It’s simply a logging App)

Back in 2005 I had major issues with my SONOS system. Most of these resolved after I reserved IP addresses. … Then there was the neighbor’s 2.4GHz phone system to work around.

T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6

@jgatie

Hello jgatie i finaly tried as you said to put a ip reservation (static) to all my 6 devices and it solved the unsync issue for my spotify and my regular music contain. Thank you!

However i still experiment the unsync issue 5 seconds at the begining of each track with hi-resolution (hifi) music like tidal. Less than before since its only 5 seconds instead of 10-15 seconds…

Do you have any clue for this?

Thanks again!

 

 

@buzz

I do not live close to hospitals or any crowed place. I live in an almost rural place and there is not much nearby except a few neighbors.

jgatie

If you can, connect one of your Sonos to the main hub of the Orbi via an Ethernet cable.  Wait a few, then try the HD tracks.

T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6

This is the first time in 2 years that my system is going so well. I'm afraid to touch something.You rock 😍 Hope it will last. However, I will try tonight. I imagine that this will not disturb my ip addresses again?

jgatie

No, it won't. 

T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6

@jgatie It is with regret that I inform you that the static address procedure did not work. In fact, it only worked for 2 days and the problem came back, moreover connecting a device with the ethernet cable did not help.

I always have to plug in 75% of my devices to solve the 10-15 seconds unsync and dropouts. I decided to redo your entire process from scratch a second time.

In summary, rebooted all my devices in my house in the order mentioned, including modem, wifi, sonos devices, cell phone, pc, etc.

I confirm that the reboot worked because at the end of the ip address of each device the number has changed for each of them. Then I applied the static mode and I confirm that it is well applied for each of the 6 because I did a second check of my parameters in the advanced mode of orbi.

After more than 100 total hours of diagnosis and procedures, impossible to operate Sonos at home. I have never had so many complications with an electronic device in my entire life. Sincerely.

Ken_Griffiths

@jgatie It is with regret that I inform you that the static address procedure did not work. In fact, it only worked for 2 days and the problem came back, moreover connecting a device with the ethernet cable did not help.

I always have to plug in 75% of my devices to solve the 10-15 seconds unsync and dropouts. I decided to redo your entire process from scratch a second time.

In summary, rebooted all my devices in my house in the order mentioned, including modem, wifi, sonos devices, cell phone, pc, etc.

I confirm that the reboot worked because at the end of the ip address of each device the number has changed for each of them. Then I applied the static mode and I confirm that it is well applied for each of the 6 because I did a second check of my parameters in the advanced mode of orbi.

After more than 100 total hours of diagnosis and procedures, impossible to operate Sonos at home. I have never had so many complications with an electronic device in my entire life. Sincerely.

As mentioned earlier, the recommendation is to use the Orbi mesh system in ‘bridged’ mode as ‘WiFi Access Points’ to a decent router, to also disable the routers own WiFi adapters and where practical, cable the hubs back to the router, or an adjacent switch. I would consider that as you have likely tried everything else in the last two years, or so. I still think it’s worth a try.

T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6

@Ken_Griffiths Can access point mode mess up my other devices in my house? Will I still be able to go back without having to factory reset my network?

Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths Can access point mode mess up my other devices in my house? Will I still be able to go back without having to factory reset my network?

Just use the exact same IP subnet on the chosen router. The wireless network will be the same SSID/password too, so your WiFi devices will connect as they do now .. The wired devices need to connect back to the router, or to an unmanaged ‘primary’ switch off that router.. All will just continue to use the same LAN subnet as you have presently with your Orbi router.

You ideally need to re-do the device reservations in the 3rd party routers DHCP reservation table aswell.

If practicable, wire the Orbi hubs back to the router, or the primary switch.

Don't wire any Sonos products.

I have setup my system for the WiFi mesh network to be able to switch between router mode and bridged AP mode - When setup correctly, it takes minutes to switch between the two modes.

I would advise that you switch off the routers WiFi adapters when the Orbi hubs are in bridge mode.

Hope that assists and that it works for you.

T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6 
This is starting to go beyond my area of ​​expertise and most of the things you talk to me mean absolutely nothing to me. It would take me another 5 to 10 additional hours before I fully understand this with no guarantee of success. In addition, additional hours would have to be added to put everything back as before if a compatibility problem arises during this process. I believe that in this situation that the wired connection proves to be the best short-term option. If only we could test sonos products in store and that would allow me to understand better. However, to the great disappointment of sellers in the region, no demo sound devices are provided to Canadian sellers at this time. I am disappointed with this abnormal situation. I imagine there are reasons behind this…
Ken_Griffiths

I’ve just quickly drafted a diagram of an example home network mesh setup in ‘bridged’ AP mode - maybe it will help you follow things a little easier - obviously you would need to adjust things to suit your own home and amount of Orbi hubs & switches etc, that you may have, but here is a quick ‘example’ diagram attached.

The 3rd party routers network-subnet (eg. 192.168.XXX. XXX) will be exactly the same as you have now for your Orbi router. The routers WiFi adapters will both be disabled and you can go onto reserve/fix the Sonos IP addresses in the new routers configuration pages in a ‘similar’ way as you did earlier on the Orbi router.

Just continue to use the same WiFi SSID and password for your Orbi access points when they have been switched to ‘bridged’ AP Mode. I hope that additional info. assists.

Sorry that the sketch attached is a bit rough, but hopefully it will help you to follow things.

1 Attachment
T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6

@Ken_Griffiths

Thanks for the follow up. I will probably try this on my next free day. That said, I had the privilege last Friday of talking on the phone with one of the most reputable store selling sound products in the country. This store sells products such as Bang & Olufsen, Bower & Wilkins, Burmester, Canton, Marrantz and more.

The technician who takes care of the home installations to whom I spoke told me that he already knows this problem and that Sonos is simply not stable after 3 devices or in multi -room.

It is sad that we have reached a subject of more than 68 comments and soon 1000 views without any comments from official sonos members (or who are not retired).

Ken_Griffiths

Sounds rather like the technician is perhaps just planting a seed so that you might purchase something from them in the future.

There are lots of users who hang around these forums that have far more speakers than the number mentioned, myself included …and from a personal point of view, I don’t encounter any issues running all my Sonos products on WiFi, or SonosNet, but then again I don’t choose to use Orbi WiFi mesh and would not personally choose to run that setup in router mode anyway.

If I had your setup I would have opted to run it in ‘bridged’ AP mode with the hubs wired back to a main router instead, as has been suggested in the past.

Sonos Staff have commented in the thread I linked to in my earlier post and even provided the link to how to switch the Orbi setup to ‘bridged AP’ mode and that’s why I referred you across to that thread.

If you want to believe the technician you spoke to, then that’s entirely up-to you, but it sounds like a bit of a sales pitch to me.

Anyhow, I sincerely hope you find the answers that you’re looking for.

buzz

The technician who takes care of the home installations to whom I spoke told me that he already knows this problem and that Sonos is simply not stable after 3 devices or in multi -room.

 

This has not been my experience. SONOS does require a more competent network setup as Rooms are added.

T
Userlevel 2
Badge +6

@Ken_Griffiths

If you want to believe the technician you spoke to, then that’s entirely up-to you, but it sounds like a bit of a sales pitch to me.

Ken as I mentioned he is a technician. He has no interest in selling me anything. It's easy to discredit people like that.

If I had your setup I would have opted to run it in ‘bridged’ AP mode with the hubs wired back to a main router instead, as has been suggested in the past.

This being clarified, I carefully considered your graph that you made. Take note that I only have a modem + an orbi wifi with a satellite. Also I have an 1x internet switch. That's all. Is this necessary or do I have to buy something else to accomplish your proposed network method.

I'm not a networking expert and still don't understand everything mentioned. If you want I can contact you by phone and we will do all this step by step, because I do not understand your diagram despite my computer knowledge.

ratty

Sonos is simply not stable after 3 devices or in multi -room.

Nonsense. I only have around 16 devices in my system at the moment. Just now 13 devices / 7 rooms are grouped and playing FLAC fine.  

 

As an aside, debating ‘bridge mode’ vs ‘router mode’ has no relevance to the stability of the system. Everything of course has to be on the same subnet.

buzz

Ken’s diagram only shows how the access points are wired back to the router. Other items are connected to each switch, but there is no need to show them. The two dotted lines show access points that wirelessly connect to the network. A wireless access point is placed about midway between a good coverage area and an area that needs some help. The wireless access point will use its good connection to provide good coverage for the more distant wireless clients.

Note that Ken is not wiring SONOS units to the access points.

Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths

This being clarified, I carefully considered your graph that you made. Take note that I only have a modem + an orbi wifi with a satellite. Also I have an 1x internet switch. That's all. Is this necessary or do I have to buy something else to accomplish your proposed network method.

If that’s all you have, then I would not bother, it might be easier to just stick with SonosNet (Standalone Sonos device wired to router only) and perhaps have your controller device link to the Orbi Router AP only and see if that helps.

You could even perhaps consider splitting the Orbi SSID into 2.4Ghz/5Ghz bands (with different SSID’s) and run all things Sonos-related on the 2.4Ghz band only. Just see what may work best for you… if you’re still struggling, then maybe pay and get someone out to look at your Home network for you.

ratty

You could even perhaps consider splitting the Orbi SSID into 2.4Ghz/5Ghz bands (with different SSID’s) and run all things Sonos-related on the 2.4Ghz band only. 

Unfortunately not possible on Orbi. 

https://kb.netgear.com/000062547/Can-I-choose-if-my-Orbi-router-broadcasts-separate-WiFi-networks-for-2-4GHz-and-5GHz

 

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