Not completely. SSDP is an announcement based system with regular “heartbeats” so the controller apps have a max age and the devices make announcements to the SSDP multicast addresses at regular intervals. If the controller misses announcements and the max-age hits, then the controller should perform service discovery again.
mDNS is more event based and devices don’t perform regular announcements. When a device starts it goes through a probe phase (to ensure the name it wants isn’t already in use) then an advertisment phase. The device then doesn’t need to advertise itself unless something changes, eg IP address changes, interface goes down and up and it just responds to queries and watches other queries and responses on the mDNS multicast network.
Amongst various timings of when things need to happen the specs also require a randomised window before starting, to prevent things like broadcast storms it a switch is restarted so all devices advertising services stagger their probe/advertisments due to the network interface coming up instead of all hitting the switch in one go.
The static IP addresses are likely to be of little benefit for mDNS. While not hard defined in the specification, the recommended Time To Live setting for records containing host information is 120 seconds. For all other records it is to be set at 75 minutes. Even before a TTL is reached, hosts will update their cache based on other queries and responses they observe if their cache is different and they would expect to answer. It would be an edge case where the cached hostname/IP is reused and the static IP is beneficial for mDNS.
When the controller device last received a host record more than 120 seconds ago it’s cache is already invalid so it needs query for up to date records.
While mDNS shares things familiar from unicast DNS is has it’s own set of requirements and rules to suit it’s purpose for multicast, with no central source of truth and changing devices.
Thanks @sigh I bow to your expertise of these things, but is there anything you see here that might cause a users speakers/products to either ‘ungroup’ or interrupt the ‘audio playback’ as was being suggested earlier?
I’ve not experienced any difficulties with device discovery, in fact I would ‘hand on heart’ say my own Sonos device discovery has improved and is much faster and robust compared to the previous S2 App, not that I had very many issues with SSDP discovery personally speaking …and I’ve not noticed any difference with grouping/ungrouping/playback of Sonos Rooms - on average I tend to group 4, or maybe 5, rooms max. on a reasonably regular basis and as you may have seen I have no issues grouping even 10 rooms and controlling their volume during streaming from Amazon etc.
My own view here has been if the network is stable, then these things do seem to work okay in my case with the new App and device firmware, but if there are users speakers that ungroup or have audio interruptions, then surely the first place to begin troubleshooting is to look at both the LAN network and WAN (streaming audio source connection) - I just have a hard time seeing it being either mDNS, or device firmware, related and certainly not Sonos App related.
I would personally have started my own troubleshooting with looking at local wireless interference and device SNR levels etc. It seems the case however that criticism is (sometimes) thrown my way whenever I try to suggest these things as possible solutions for a users audio payback interruptions. I’d have made the same suggestions if it was prior to May aswell and the user was using the S2 Sonos App and earlier firmware.
One quick further thing @sigh. I understand that Apple developers created their own customised version of mDNS that they call ‘Bonjour’, is there any reason why Sonos may not have done something similar and customised mDNS to suit their own needs and requirements, which users cannot ascertain due to encryption (as noted by Andy Pennell)?
The desktop controllers don’t install/work on tablets - it’s either Windows 10 (or higher) and MacOS 10.12 (or higher) only. Nor do they use a web browser. The controllers are available here:
Reasonably certain @chambolle meant to say the Web App, which makes perfect sense.
The desktop controllers don’t install/work on tablets - it’s either Windows 10 (or higher) and MacOS 10.12 (or higher) only. Nor do they use a web browser. The controllers are available here:
Reasonably certain @chambolle meant to say the Web App, which makes perfect sense.
Yes, I guess so and was trying to use it to see their Sonos playlists, I think? - but they need the DCR App to do that. The other issue I’ve just realised too, is chambolle might be out of luck anyway with the DCR App, as it seems they haven’t updated their Sonos App since 22nd July, or their firmware, (presumably) - so that might throw a spanner in the works for them.
Thanks @sigh I bow to your expertise of these things, but is there anything you see here that might cause a users speakers/products to either ‘ungroup’ or interrupt the ‘audio playback’ as was being suggested earlier?
I suggest you read Andy Pennell’s post. He writes Sonos Apps and in his own stable network he is now getting issues. Sonos appear to be changing firmware all over the place at the moment and breaking stuff that used to work. He’s even modifying his code to try and keep on top of it.
However breaking stuff like basic music indexing is starting to stretch the boundaries of credibility even further than we thought plausible.
At this rate I suspect it won’t be long before 3rd party apps start breaking, which they sort of have if you’re on 16.3 firmware as your local index will be toast and that will be equally badly displayed in any app trying to control Sonos.
For anyone ‘limping’ along currently on 16.2 firmware with a combination of older controllers and desktop apps, my advice would be:
AVOID Updating to 16.3/16.3.1 levels of firmware
Until Sonos have fixed the local indexing. Also updating to this level invokes a block in older Sonos controllers that stops them working completely. I get that Sonos would prefer users to be on the latest and consistent levels of code, but when you keep screwing up basic Sonos function (STILL after 3 months of pain) you can’t blame users for NOT wanting to ride on your out of control rollercoaster either.
Speaking of ‘out of control roller coasters,’ I just opened the app and got ‘cannot load queue try again.’ First time for me for that one. Thank heavens the simple fix was to back out of the app, shut down and restart my ipad and open the app again.
But at this point, every time something like that happens I grit my teeth and try to prepare myself for the worst. This is not my idea of a good time.
@chambolle May I suggest you listen to ‘Garbage - Not My Idea’!! A group title combination that is completely laced in irony for this mess!! 
Today, we are moving to the new update 80.06.04…… My favorites are disorganized, some no longer work, some radio stations are inaccessible AND it is impossible to search in the “Radioplayer” service
Fed up!!!!!!
I’d suggest logging out of the app, closing it, re-opening the app and logging back in again.
What I did and more. I uninstalled and reinstalled, empty the cache, restarted the phone, etc. BUT nothing change.
“Added mute buttons for individual products in Group Volume controls”
Are you seeing these? I can’t see these in Android or iPad app. In the 16.1 there was a mute icon on the left but I can’t see it in similar position. There is just the speaker icon in that group UI.
is that somewhere else now?
When you adjust the group volumes, tap the speaker icon on the left of the Sonos speaker slider line you wish to mute.
Ok, now I think I see what the issue still is:
- A: when the Now Playing screen is whole display size, when I tap on the speaker icon on the left, it only mutes all. It does not bring up the individual volume controls. It does bring them up in the 16.1 app. I was expecting it to be available also in this screen.
- B: when the now playing component is small in the bottom of the screen I can tap on the speaker icon. It mutes and also brings up the volume control for the individual grouped speakers. I can mute individual speaker in this screen.
It probably is a firmware issue if it works for others also in scenario A. For me it looks that it’s only been implemented in the small Home Screen component.
Yes, that’s how I see it at the moment too - it's probably ‘by design’ for the time being, but I would like to see the option to mute individual rooms on the "Output Selector/Room Grouping Screen” aswell.
Not sure if we’re all at crossed purposes or saying the same things but I’ll go anyway based on what I’m seeing when playing grouped speakers:
On BOTH the full Now Playing screen AND the reduced Now Playing area at the bottom of the screen, when I move the volume slider or tap the speaker to mute, I get ALL grouped speaker sliders appearing, allowing me to adjust or mute each individual speaker.
So all working as it should.
Are you saying you are seeing something different?
Hi, I suspect you are using iPhone? I heard from others that for them on iPhone those controls pop up everywhere on the app (also in the full screen UI).
I had interpreted the first of the below bullet points to mean that also on Android and iPad app they should pop up everywhere. But maybe with the second bullet point they mean that it works on iPhone but not yet on Android or iPad app:
“Added mute buttons for individual products in Group Volume controls”
Are you seeing these? I can’t see these in Android or iPad app. In the 16.1 there was a mute icon on the left but I can’t see it in similar position. There is just the speaker icon in that group UI.
is that somewhere else now?
When you adjust the group volumes, tap the speaker icon on the left of the Sonos speaker slider line you wish to mute.
Ok, now I think I see what the issue still is:
- A: when the Now Playing screen is whole display size, when I tap on the speaker icon on the left, it only mutes all. It does not bring up the individual volume controls. It does bring them up in the 16.1 app. I was expecting it to be available also in this screen.
- B: when the now playing component is small in the bottom of the screen I can tap on the speaker icon. It mutes and also brings up the volume control for the individual grouped speakers. I can mute individual speaker in this screen.
It probably is a firmware issue if it works for others also in scenario A. For me it looks that it’s only been implemented in the small Home Screen component.
Yes, that’s how I see it at the moment too - it's probably ‘by design’ for the time being, but I would like to see the option to mute individual rooms on the "Output Selector/Room Grouping Screen” aswell.
Not sure if we’re all at crossed purposes or saying the same things but I’ll go anyway based on what I’m seeing when playing grouped speakers:
On BOTH the full Now Playing screen AND the reduced Now Playing area at the bottom of the screen, when I move the volume slider or tap the speaker to mute, I get ALL grouped speaker sliders appearing, allowing me to adjust or mute each individual speaker.
So all working as it should.
Are you saying you are seeing something different?
Hi, I suspect you are using iPhone? I heard from others that for them on iPhone those controls pop up everywhere on the app (also in the full screen UI).
I had interpreted the first of the below bullet points to mean that also on Android and iPad app they should pop up everywhere. But maybe with the second bullet point they mean that it works on iPhone but not yet on Android or iPad app:
iOS tends to mean both iPhone and iPad (on here I’ve found...).
The ‘new’ group volume control is a regression in function. I’m sure it used to work whereby if you pressed the speaker icon it would mute the whole group, and if you dragged the volume slider it would increase/decrease the volume across the group by the same amounts relative to their individual current volume. If you wanted to control just one speakers volume in a group, you tapped the volume line instead…
Now even if you tap the speaker icon to mute the group, it brings up the group volume screen having muted all speakers, so you have to swipe down again or wait a few seconds for it to disappear. Likewise to adjust volume, it always brings up the detail screen… where you can access the master volume slider…
It’s almost like the dev team are re-discovering what used to be there before and slowly coming to the same conclusions that were made years ago… Have Sonos outsourced their app development to a new company and let go the people that knew how it all worked?
The ‘new’ group volume control is a regression in function. I’m sure it used to work whereby if you pressed the speaker icon it would mute the whole group, and if you dragged the volume slider it would increase/decrease the volume across the group by the same amounts relative to their individual current volume. If you wanted to control just one speakers volume in a group, you tapped the volume line instead…
Now even if you tap the speaker icon to mute the group, it brings up the group volume screen having muted all speakers, so you have to swipe down again or wait a few seconds for it to disappear. Likewise to adjust volume, it always brings up the detail screen… where you can access the master volume slider…
It’s almost like the dev team are re-discovering what used to be there before and slowly coming to the same conclusions that were made years ago… Have Sonos outsourced their app development to a new company and let go the people that knew how it all worked?
Here’s a video showing how it worked last year in the old S2 app. It looks the same to me as it works now? Unless I’m missing something?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDeCR4f8y3c
Thanks @sigh I bow to your expertise of these things, but is there anything you see here that might cause a users speakers/products to either ‘ungroup’ or interrupt the ‘audio playback’ as was being suggested earlier?
I suggest you read Andy Pennell’s post. He writes Sonos Apps and in his own stable network he is now getting issues. Sonos appear to be changing firmware all over the place at the moment and breaking stuff that used to work. He’s even modifying his code to try and keep on top of it.
However breaking stuff like basic music indexing is starting to stretch the boundaries of credibility even further than we thought plausible.
At this rate I suspect it won’t be long before 3rd party apps start breaking, which they sort of have if you’re on 16.3 firmware as your local index will be toast and that will be equally badly displayed in any app trying to control Sonos.
For anyone ‘limping’ along currently on 16.2 firmware with a combination of older controllers and desktop apps, my advice would be:
AVOID Updating to 16.3/16.3.1 levels of firmware
Until Sonos have fixed the local indexing. Also updating to this level invokes a block in older Sonos controllers that stops them working completely. I get that Sonos would prefer users to be on the latest and consistent levels of code, but when you keep screwing up basic Sonos function (STILL after 3 months of pain) you can’t blame users for NOT wanting to ride on your out of control rollercoaster either.
I have read both of @controlav’s posts - not sure why Andy is having mDNS discovery isdues but that’s not happening on my networks at Home and other locations, but I guess Andy will get to the bottom of it - I’ve not had a single product not show up so far since the first release in early May, but I guess we each may be seeing different things, although I’m not sure why. I also didn’t have very much trouble with SSDP discovery with my networks either, in fact I still don’t on my main Home network where I still have a small S1 system alongside the new Sonos App setup.
As for library indexing I only see the compilation albums grouping issue which I know has been reported and acknowledged and other than that my local NAS library is still working/indexing okay - I mostly search or browse by Artist anyway and the new local library search is incredibly quick and playback too. Much faster than the previous S2 Sonos App IMHO. See attached iPhone & iPad controllers.
The ‘new’ group volume control is a regression in function. I’m sure it used to work whereby if you pressed the speaker icon it would mute the whole group, and if you dragged the volume slider it would increase/decrease the volume across the group by the same amounts relative to their individual current volume. If you wanted to control just one speakers volume in a group, you tapped the volume line instead…
Now even if you tap the speaker icon to mute the group, it brings up the group volume screen having muted all speakers, so you have to swipe down again or wait a few seconds for it to disappear. Likewise to adjust volume, it always brings up the detail screen… where you can access the master volume slider…
It’s almost like the dev team are re-discovering what used to be there before and slowly coming to the same conclusions that were made years ago… Have Sonos outsourced their app development to a new company and let go the people that knew how it all worked?
I see it working almost the same now as it used to work in the S2 App - in fact it’s really similar, as is the room grouping screen and the volume can be controlled either for each individual room, or using the group-volume slider control at the bottom of the screen. What are you seeing that’s different?
I have been using the windows app, mostly to access my Sonos Playlists as it was the only stable way to see them.
Today I tried to create a new list and each time I add tracks, the Music Library disappears. I then have to go back to music sources and start all over again.
Hi @Ian_S and @sigh, at the beginning of the Sonos Q3 earnings call CEO Patrick Spence acknowledged customer problems with the new app and accompanying device firmware. One of the issues he specifically called out was “speakers disappearing from customers’ systems.”
I believe this is the first time the company has acknowledged the problem. It is genuinely good to know that it is on their radar … even better that it was disclosed with such a high profile. Fingers crossed this vexing problem will be resolved in the not too distant future!
Hi @Ian_S and @sigh, at the beginning of the Sonos Q3 earnings call CEO Patrick Spence acknowledged customer problems with the new app and accompanying device firmware. One of the issues he specifically called out was “speakers disappearing from customers’ systems.”
I believe this is the first time the company has acknowledged the problem. It is genuinely good to know that it is on their radar … even better that it was disclosed with such a high profile. Fingers crossed this vexing problem will be resolved in the not too distant future!
I admire your optimism. Sonos broke their own system and we are all so grateful that they acknowledge it. It would be good if all previous functionality was returned. My worry is how long that is taking, why is it being drip fed and why the heck did this debacle happen in the first place!
It’s almost like the dev team are re-discovering what used to be there before and slowly coming to the same conclusions that were made years ago…
Some 24 years ago Joel Spolsky wrote a seminal blog piece:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
For a recent retrospective...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/18vxqqf/24_years_ago_joel_spolsky_joel_on_software_wrote/
It’s almost like the dev team are re-discovering what used to be there before and slowly coming to the same conclusions that were made years ago…
Some 24 years ago Joel Spolsky wrote a seminal blog piece:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
For a recent retrospective...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/18vxqqf/24_years_ago_joel_spolsky_joel_on_software_wrote/
That is quite brilliant and sums up pretty much all that is wrong in our brave new world.
I had written a lengthy post commenting on yesterday’s earnings call and neglected to post and unfortunately lost it. Here are the highlights:
- Patrick Spence spent the first 10 minutes of the call “falling on the sword” and “bending the knee” to take responsibility for the “ongoing” disaster with the app
- Patrick noted that there were 2 new hardware products that were ready to come to market in Q4 that will now be delayed.
- Company is entirely focused on fixing the app
- Process is being independently overseen by a board member
- Original Sonos App programmer is fully engaged with implementing fixes to the new app
- Sonos beat Q3 24 EPS estimates and revenue estimates, but guided down by over -40% Q4 24 revenue guidance ($397M → $250M = $600M+ annualized)
- The guide down is material, stock continues to fall, approaching $10 in the aftermarket. Down nearly 50% since this fiasco started
- Entire tone of the call was ominous. No investor presentation, just a conciliatory press release
- The CFO sounded like a sheep in a wolves den. Comments were monotone and meek, she offered no updates as to the disappearance of the finance department (and IR department) who undoubtedly were overwhelmed with calls from disappointed investors
In summary, management only now understands the impact of the disaster to forward sales, and due to regulatory requirements (and to avoid SEC scrutiny) had to disclose the -40% reduction in revenue. As an avid Sonos user I hope they are successful. That said, I think this fix is going to require new senior management. IMHO, the Sonos franchise is at risk, there are no more 2nd chances.
Finally, music library access (without hacks) has been pushed back to September. This is why a management change is necessary, we don’t need false information, just be straightforward and honest, and stop missing self-imposed deadlines for the fix.
To Rhonny and others - I hope you take this post as a factual commentary, I don’t mean to pile on. That said, this is a deep hole that has eliminated 2 - 3 years of growth in the Sonos franchise...and Patrick Spence admitted that he rushed this update through.
I had written a lengthy post commenting on yesterday’s earnings call and neglected to post and unfortunately lost it. Here are the highlights:
- Patrick Spence spent the first 10 minutes of the call “falling on the sword” and “bending the knee” to take responsibility for the “ongoing” disaster with the app
- Patrick noted that there were 2 new hardware products that were ready to come to market in Q4 that will now be delayed.
- Company is entirely focused on fixing the app
- Process is being independently overseen by a board member
- Original Sonos App programmer is fully engaged with implementing fixes to the new app
- Sonos beat Q3 24 EPS estimates and revenue estimates, but guided down by over -40% Q4 24 revenue guidance ($397M → $250M = $600M+ annualized)
- The guide down is material, stock continues to fall, approaching $10 in the aftermarket. Down nearly 50% since this fiasco started
- Entire tone of the call was ominous. No investor presentation, just a conciliatory press release
- The CFO sounded like a sheep in a wolves den. Comments were monotone and meek, she offered no updates as to the disappearance of the finance department (and IR department) who undoubtedly were overwhelmed with calls from disappointed investors
In summary, management only now understands the impact of the disaster to forward sales, and due to regulatory requirements (and to avoid SEC scrutiny) had to disclose the -40% reduction in revenue. As an avid Sonos user I hope they are successful. That said, I think this fix is going to require new senior management. IMHO, the Sonos franchise is at risk, there are no more 2nd chances.
Finally, music library access (without hacks) has been pushed back to September. This is why a management change is necessary, we don’t need false information, just be straightforward and honest, and stop missing self-imposed deadlines for the fix.
To Rhonny and others - I hope you take this post as a factual commentary, I don’t mean to pile on. That said, this is a deep hole that has eliminated 2 - 3 years of growth in the Sonos franchise...and Patrick Spence admitted that he rushed this update through.
Great post. I can’t disagree with any of that, and nor would I want to.
Wow. Brilliant stuff. Will be totally ignored of course. Companies rise and fall. Same for countries and civilisations. Something to do with ego and not listening first then doing.
Hi @Ian_S and @sigh, at the beginning of the Sonos Q3 earnings call CEO Patrick Spence acknowledged customer problems with the new app and accompanying device firmware. One of the issues he specifically called out was “speakers disappearing from customers’ systems.”
I believe this is the first time the company has acknowledged the problem. It is genuinely good to know that it is on their radar … even better that it was disclosed with such a high profile. Fingers crossed this vexing problem will be resolved in the not too distant future!
I admire your optimism. Sonos broke their own system and we are all so grateful that they acknowledge it. It would be good if all previous functionality was returned. My worry is how long that is taking, why is it being drip fed and why the heck did this debacle happen in the first place!
Even though it’s been some time since the release of the “new app” the best decision Sonos could make is put the version 16 app back up and split off development onto a new app and start a beta program for users ready to be testers.
This would make the great majority of the user base happy and take the heat off the software developers so they could move into an acceptable development cycle and get out of the downward spiral of patch and release.
If headphones are dependent on the new release I guess those users automatically enter the beta program.
Since Sonos seems to be ready to face facts they might as well make the best decision for themselves and their customers.
Then put procedures in place that will prevent something like this from ever happening again.
Ultimately, the new version could takeover and Sonos could sunset the 16 version.
Just sayin’
Even though it’s been some time since the release of the “new app” the best decision Sonos could make is put the version 16 app back up and split off development onto a new app and start a beta program for users ready to be testers.
This has been true since May 8. It’s been really really obvious since May 15 when Sonos hosted its AMA. It was true when 2 months and 20 days after the app “update” rolled out, Spence finally apologised for the bin fire situation he pushed the company into.
Pretty clearly its not going to happen, not with Spence still wearing the CEO badge. How that badge hasn’t been snatched off him by the board at this point is what I don’t understand. Perhaps the board is waiting for the stock price to fall another 35% so they can purchase more during the dip before they vote to replace him?
Even though it’s been some time since the release of the “new app” the best decision Sonos could make is put the version 16 app back up and split off development onto a new app and start a beta program for users ready to be testers.
This has been true since May 8. It’s been really really obvious since May 15 when Sonos hosted its AMA. It was true when 2 months and 20 days after the app “update” rolled out, Spence finally apologised for the bin fire situation he pushed the company into.
Pretty clearly its not going to happen, not with Spence still wearing the CEO badge. How that badge hasn’t been snatched off him by the board at this point is what I don’t understand. Perhaps the board is waiting for the stock price to fall another 35% so they can purchase more during the dip before they vote to replace him?
I know, but at certain points on the timeline, it can’t hurt to remind the “powers that be” what is the best decision for everyone, including Sonos.
From the introduction of this mess I suggested that setting unrealistic expectations and entering a cycle of patch and release was a bad idea.
