The whole My Sonos feature is confusing. The playlists are confusing, and huge graphics which means hardly any playlists can be shown. Was SO hoping the Mac app would get an update, but no such luck. Wait for more reviews before upgrading..... or am I missing something?
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Hi, thanks John B for reading my mad ramblings and being measured in your response!
If I could just comment on a couple of things, I would be interested in your views...!
Your right to a degree that the system does more than when the CR200 was launched. But the ‘more’ is mostly more online sources, more configuration (trueplay) and options in setting up, etc. The true core — the essence of what Sonos is — is ‘play this music in that room’. I personally (and I’m getting on so my memory does fail me) can’t think of new functionality that has been added to day to day playing of music. That part should be fundamentally simple. It’s core, it’s basic — and that (some) people are complaining that this part is not fluidly simple would suggest its gone bad.
The other thing I’d like to comment on is the distinction between what is logical and what is intuitive. I’m not sure there is any difference here. For instance you may click on a button that is unlabelled because it’s location / shape /context suggests what it should logically do. If it’s logical, it’s intuitive. My own personal opinion is that modern design (unlabelled buttons, the ‘hamburger’ button, the ‘three dot’ symbol) are bad design and counter intuitive, but this seems to be the way interfaces are going, so I guess I’m in the minority here. But again the visuals are always down to preference. But call it logical or call it intuitive - the design should be both!!
Right, off for bacon sandwich.
Andrew
I truly believe that when people say 'it is not intuitive' they really mean 'it is not what I am used to'. Two examples from my own experience:
1. Mac owners are fond of saying how intuitive the OS is. Not for me as a lifetime PC user, on rare occasions I have had to deal with one. Where is the start button? How do I right-click? Where is the Explorer function? It's not about intuition, it's about learning how things are organised, what they are called and where to find them.
2. Office 2007 and the introduction of the ribbon to Word and Excel. For quite a while I complained that it was unintuitive, that I had gained no functionality but could not find anything (sound familiar?). I actually made progress when I thought a bit about what sort of commands were on each tab and why. And learned about the new 'dialogue launchers'. Neither system was more 'intuitive' or more 'logical' than the other. They were just different, and I needed to learn the differences. I cannot imagine working any other way now. But I expect I will have to one day.
I think the new app is true to the concept of 'just play music in a room' that you mention. And that comes through the Sonos bar. The Rooms button gives me Rooms. Choosing music is done in one of three ways:
(I) By choosing a specific source (Browse button - why the **** is it not labelled Sources?)
(ii) By searching a source or across sources (Search)
(iii) By going to things I frequently go to and have personalised (My Sonos)
The 'More..' button is for things I don't need for playing music day-to-day, which used to be lumped in with everything else
The glaring fault in the design is that the Sonos bar is not visible on the Now Playing screen. This does not give me a navigation problem because I know to just swipe down the screen. But it gives me an irritation problem
The other thing that MUST be fixed is the My Sonos icon size, which makes that area far too difficult to use, especially on the phone.
Fix those two and I believe you will have a simple to use and effective app, for those users who are willing to put up with short-term unfamiliarity and just get used to it
(The app has other flaws that need addressing too, but it is hardly necessary for me to list those.
So Andrew, do I believe that someone should be able to pick up an app like this and just use it by 'intuition'? No, not in any way do I believe that.
So. Fix the problems Sonos, but Don't go back.
Apologies to all of you who disagree with me for expressing my views.
It seems there are a “couple” Sonos apologists...
It seems there are a “couple” Sonos apologists...
Perhaps more than a couple?:-).
Would you really like this thread to consist of only negative opinions such that all the visible and immediate purpose the thread then serves is for these posters to be satisfied that they have expressed their anger and let off steam?
Does it not help at least some to have "apologists" posting responses in a manner that is constructive at least in intent?
Like some others, I do not regularly post to forums. It was not until hosting some friends last night that I noticed how "bad" / "poor" the new controller truly is. Aesthetically it is not pleasing. Functionally it is woeful. I used it for 3 hours and it never was intuitive. I have been using Sonos for many years (and promoted it to others to adopt). I hadn't used the update to this point because (thankfully) the Mac OS controller remains quite good (don't change that one). And I traded messages with an installer of home systems who advised that all of his clients are not happy either. I can only hope that some updates / adjustments are coming, but would be difficult to pick an area to start. Really alot of work to do here...but dominant colors of while, black, red? Can see there was an effort from some minimalist look, but not having ability to search for songs from selected room screen is confounding. Good luck...will be waiting.
Have to agree with all of the above posts. This iPhone update is terrible. I am a savvy tech user, but tech anxiety goes up every time I pick up the app to change rooms, etc. "Will I get it right this time? Or will I just end up switching my station to another room? Or will I find my Favorites? And how $%%^&%$# do I switch rooms? And why are the room buttons so hard to see on the white background? And groups? I don't even dare". I have told many people over years to buy Sonos (and have bought several for my self and as gifts), but am rethinking this.
On the other hand, maybe the terrible App is a marketing strategy to get people to move to voice activated Sonos One? How is that going to go?
On the other hand, maybe the terrible App is a marketing strategy to get people to move to voice activated Sonos One? How is that going to go?
On the other hand, maybe the terrible App is a marketing strategy to get people to move to voice activated Sonos One? How is that going to go?
Do you mean the great big room icons on the rooms tab? Or do you mean the tiny room ids at the bottom on the browse tab? Please do look at all the tabs and everything on screens. Then you will see that it really is quite intuitive. The update has drawn together common items into groups. It’s not perfect but hey ho.
Meanwhile, you are perfectly happy about the queue behaviour? Getting that very basic functionality better is at the top of my list rather than icons having moved somewhere else.
I can deal with the not-so-great changes that were made to the app, but as I've said in another thread, what I cannot get passed is the awful UI design. If Sonos would just add an option to change the white theme to a nice (and slightly transparent) gray/dark theme and bring back that cool (and tastefully done) artwork overlay effect blurred the background, I would be very happy. Options would make most people happy, actually. There is no sleekness or character in this version. Nothing about the UI tells me that this app is the front-end controller/player to a high-end music system. It has altered my Sonos experience as a whole.
Actually, I like the aesthetics of the design, but that's subjective. It's the awful unintuitive inconsistent user experience I can't stand. But... there is, sadly little incentive for Sonos to improve things at the moment because they're selling the speaker experience, not the required software UI. The rule is that if you're building a free/cheap app or website that users can abandon in seconds, the UI/UX has to be first rate. If you've sunk hundreds of pounds into nice hardware, how quickly will you sell it if the software is annoying?
I agree that the Sonos app design aesthetic is subjective, that's why there should be user option/choices between white and dark themes. However, I don't see the Sonos app as being free, I see it as a necessary accessory to the Sonos hardware that had to be downloaded instead of included in the box, and the price for this necessary accessory is certainly baked into their hardware costs. I am sure Sonos enjoys beefy profit margins, and good for them, they should. But since the Sonos app is the face and/or front-end to Sonos hardware, I certainly do expect the UI/UX to be first rate. I purchased many Sonos speakers and subs because I was impressed with the Sonos experience, which encompasses both the hardware and the software.
To clarify, I also expect the UI/UX of a premium hi-fi product to be first rate (as it was when I originally purchased my system, and then it got better, and then it got a lot worse). But hey, I own Sony products, so I'm used to the "buy for the awesome performance, deal with the poor UI" mindset. Some of the Sonos design/implementation decisions (or "bugs", but I don't think Sonos would choose to classify them as such) are inexcusable. What they're tying to do is awesome. When the key software features (queue, playing, navigation, favourites etc) are in a more "complete" state, Sonos will be awesome. I even sort of support their "no user customisation" mantra. But it just feels like Sonos have given up on their core product while they chase shiny external systems integration.
The new app has its flaws (more on that in a minute) but basically it is really simple to use. New things take a bit of getting used to. Most of those who have slammed the new app seem to have based their views on 2 minutes effort. The Sonos bar is key. I want to pick a room? Tap the Rooms button. Then a source? Tap Browse. The one inconvenience is that the bar doesn't appear on the Now Playing screen, but I hope that will change. But I just swipe down and there is the bar (and usually either the Rooms or Browse screen, saving me one of my button presses).
I came in this evening and in less than ten seconds of opening the app had my music library playing in the Living Room. How disastrous is that?
It is logically organised. Instead of a jumble of things on the main menu, Browse contains just sources (wish they had called it Sources), More contains the things I need much less often, like Settings and Setup. Search and Rooms are self evident. 'My Sonos' contains the things I have chosen myself and want to get at quickly. What is so ****** difficult?
Yes, the icons are too big. Yes the Sonos bar should be on EVERY screen. I'd like to see Playlists on the Browse screen and just selected playlists in My Sonos.
But come on guys. Get with it and make a bit of an effort. With a few tweaks this is going to be way better than 7.4. If you want to be left behind, that's your call.
I think you are missing the point. Nobody cares about “great new features” when they cannot do the basics. You personally think the app is “easy to use” but as you can see from these multiple threads - that is not the consensus. They took something that was intuitive and made it complex and/or buggy. Right now I am unclear if this sh@t does not work because I am doing it wrong or because it is buggy - but either way this means it is “broken”.
Like everyone else here, I am not worried about “being left behind”.......left behind because of what exactly? I don’t need new features that screw the easy experience.....really I don’t. I just want to easily play my music across multiple rooms......I had that and now I do not
Like everyone else here, I am not worried about “being left behind”.......left behind because of what exactly? I don’t need new features that screw the easy experience.....really I don’t. I just want to easily play my music across multiple rooms......I had that and now I do not
Yet the exact same accusations of non-intuitiveness and "a huge step backward", the exact same claims of poor UI design, the exact same types of rants, the exact same "I'm going to make yet another thread about the new app because the other 12 aren't enough" hyperbolic postings, and the exact same "Let us revert to the old app or the bunny gets it" posts were all present after the last major UI change (some by the exact same people posting now, you know who you are!).
Is it not ironic that the formerly terrible, useless, non-intuitive, slower, poorly designed UI, huge step backward, too dark, too blue, too many clicks, too many complaints interface is now considered a model of perfection that Sonos should immediately return to? Could it possibly be just a case of familiarity and muscle memory instead of poor UI design?
Be honest.
Is it not ironic that the formerly terrible, useless, non-intuitive, slower, poorly designed UI, huge step backward, too dark, too blue, too many clicks, too many complaints interface is now considered a model of perfection that Sonos should immediately return to? Could it possibly be just a case of familiarity and muscle memory instead of poor UI design?
Be honest.
I have never claimed the app has great new features. I hope you are not mistaking me for a Sonos employee. I have attempted to help at the following thread.
https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/user-guide-for-v8-app-6792817/index1.html#post16159012
https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/user-guide-for-v8-app-6792817/index1.html#post16159012
I think the people who are posting their disquiet with V8 are trying to let Sonos know their opinions. I don’t think they are trying to persuade others (who might be getting along with it just fine) how bad it is.
I’m not quite sure why those who are ‘pro’ V8 are so determined To persuade the rest of us how wrong we are.
Everyone’s opinion is perfectly valid for them. Equally, everyone can tell Sonos what they think, and don’t need to be told by others they are wrong.
And in that vein, I will post my opinion here (and yes I have posted it elsewhere). I have used every version since 2009. Inheritently, I am an idle so and so and wouldn’t have felt moved to post on here even if I was unhappy (I wasn’t). But now I am unhappy, and I want Sonos to know it — I don’t want to be told I am wrong. My opinion ?? Version 8 is crude in its execution and amateur in its appearance.
We are all entitled to our opinion.
Andrew
I’m not quite sure why those who are ‘pro’ V8 are so determined To persuade the rest of us how wrong we are.
Everyone’s opinion is perfectly valid for them. Equally, everyone can tell Sonos what they think, and don’t need to be told by others they are wrong.
And in that vein, I will post my opinion here (and yes I have posted it elsewhere). I have used every version since 2009. Inheritently, I am an idle so and so and wouldn’t have felt moved to post on here even if I was unhappy (I wasn’t). But now I am unhappy, and I want Sonos to know it — I don’t want to be told I am wrong. My opinion ?? Version 8 is crude in its execution and amateur in its appearance.
We are all entitled to our opinion.
Andrew
I’ve never complained about the Sonos app in my life because I have never found anything worth complaining about. You can defend the indefensible as much as you like. I am sure you have heard the expression “perception is reality” - seems that my perception like many others is that this thing is broke. You have a right to disagree in which case get off the thread but don”t tell me my perception is wrong because it differs from yours.
Not trying to dissuade anybody. Just opening people up to the fact that the exact same accusations were leveled at the last app, yet some people feel it is now an ideal. Perception may be reality, but familiarity and muscle memory are as real as perception. Matter of fact, they are a major factor in how one perceives a subjective analysis. I'm not sure why anyone would want to argue with that fact, either.
Hey. I just signed up for an account so I could chime in. It's really bad!!! I actually was showing people the old app as an example of a great user interface. There were so many things you could do in there and it was all easy. Now it's been a few weeks and I still can barely figure out how to do anything at least on the first try. You really should take a look at this and consider reverting. I don't understand why you would mess up something so good.
Personally, I thought the last of the Blue UI iterations were the best - very easy to use, especially on an iPad. In fact, if you use. aPC or Mac - it still looks like that - it was easy to see *everything* on the one page, and easy to access everything... Why change this? The last UI iteration (the black one) wasn't bad, not quite as intuitive, but it was easy enough to figure out quickly.
I installed a Sonos unit for a client a few days back, and my first experience with the new UI was that particular install. I'd not used my own system in a while, so didn't even realise there was a whole new UI.
When it came time to show the client how to use it... I actually had to tell them that I'll come back the next day and explain it because I, myself, couldn't figure it out in the usual 5 minutes it takes me to figure this stuff out. It wouldn't be so bad if the menu bar along the bottom stayed there, but it vanishes, leaving you to figure out how to actually leave the device you are on. When I got home, I got the hang of it in about 20-30 minutes of messing around, but honestly, it shouldn't be that hard. It takes more steps to do stuff - why design something the increases the difficulty of the workflow?
I design and install automation systems (RTI, Crestron), and if I delivered a UI like this, I wouldn't get paid.
I can see potential in it, to be sure, but it needs a few tweaks (like the menu bar staying put on the bottom, or at least being more intuitive to get to)
In terms of the theme - I *really* heat the all white trend, it hurts my eyes, but this is subjective, and all the more reason to offer a light and dark theme.
I installed a Sonos unit for a client a few days back, and my first experience with the new UI was that particular install. I'd not used my own system in a while, so didn't even realise there was a whole new UI.
When it came time to show the client how to use it... I actually had to tell them that I'll come back the next day and explain it because I, myself, couldn't figure it out in the usual 5 minutes it takes me to figure this stuff out. It wouldn't be so bad if the menu bar along the bottom stayed there, but it vanishes, leaving you to figure out how to actually leave the device you are on. When I got home, I got the hang of it in about 20-30 minutes of messing around, but honestly, it shouldn't be that hard. It takes more steps to do stuff - why design something the increases the difficulty of the workflow?
I design and install automation systems (RTI, Crestron), and if I delivered a UI like this, I wouldn't get paid.
I can see potential in it, to be sure, but it needs a few tweaks (like the menu bar staying put on the bottom, or at least being more intuitive to get to)
In terms of the theme - I *really* heat the all white trend, it hurts my eyes, but this is subjective, and all the more reason to offer a light and dark theme.
It honestly ain’t that bad, I got used to the new layout almost immediately. It reminded me of the Apple Music app for iOS. It is more polished and modern. I think people just got super comfortable with the old version and when it is time for a design update, it messed up people’s routine. There are a few suggestions I have, which I’ve created a thread about, but they were the same suggestions I had from the old version.
Be honest.
Honest. OK. "Muscle memory" is how we manage Sonos. It's remembering that the "My Sonos" screen only shows the first 8 alphabetically of any albums/artists/playlists in your favourites, so I instinctively click "My Sonos->Others-See All" to get to my favourites on iOS (considering re-evaluating my favourites to better fit the My Sonos layout). I know that "artists" are called "others" on selected iOS screens. And I know that the desktop app does things completely differently. It's remembering that you can't just click on any album/playlist/song you're browsing and have it "just play", but that's OK, I know which "play all" buttons load up the queue with my selection, and which ones just insert your selection into yesterday's expired queue (Sonos having moved to an ephemeral "fresh queue starts when one expires" model, except when they didn't). I understand that the "play next" buttons have zero value when the queue is expired (and that Sonos can't or won't differentiate between playing, paused and expired queues when it comes to "play selection" buttons). I understand the difference between playing a track, and playing an album from track 6 to the end (awesome feature, should never have been the default action). Does the average new user understand any of this?
I don't have a problem with the general design of the Sonos apps. I actually really like the desktop app, iOS v7 was great, the new one could be great with some tweaking and consistency. But the little things are everything. Especially when Sonos refuses to do anything about them. It's called "User Experience".
Thanks for your honesty. I submit to you that muscle memory is neither hardwired, nor unlearnable, nor unadaptable. Hence the transformation of the old UI from horrible to perfection over the course of time. I'm old enough to remember the mobs with torches and pitchforks that stormed the gates of Corel when they dared to switch from the old Word Perfect control key interface to some new fangled thing called WYSIWYG. Much the same complaints about counter-intuitiveness, longer times to produce product, nobody likes it, horrible interface, etc. were tossed around like hand grenades with far more rancor that even here. Turns out, the old Word Perfect interface was about as intuitive as driving a car with your feet on the steering wheel and your hands on the pedals, but when you've always driven that way, the right way seems wrong.
Now I'm not saying this is the case with this UI, and there are definitely some enhancements to be made (and I too still don't like the queue defaults, but have learned to live with them). But I've found over the years to not trust my first impressions until my muscle memory has time to adapt, and that first impressions are often based on unfamiliarity rather than an unbiased analysis, We are only human.
Now I'm not saying this is the case with this UI, and there are definitely some enhancements to be made (and I too still don't like the queue defaults, but have learned to live with them). But I've found over the years to not trust my first impressions until my muscle memory has time to adapt, and that first impressions are often based on unfamiliarity rather than an unbiased analysis, We are only human.
Look - it was intuitive before, I could work it out in seconds, even if something changed. Over the last couple of days - actually per jgatie prompting, (thx jgatie seriously!) - I have worked out how to do stuff that was causing me problems (simple stuff like changing rooms - woohoo....it reallly works!). But that’s the point - I could not work it out intuitively myself - and I am an aeronautical engineer (yes - worry next time you get on a plane!). This muscle memory stuff may well be true - but the consumers of this technology are not software professionals who spend all day working the software and are paid to learn new tools and layouts, the people using it are my wife, my kids....and sometime aeronautical engineers! If we cannot work it out - we stop trying and do something else. I’ve worked out thanks to jgatie indirect help how to do something I thought was broken. That’s a plus. On the downside it still seems clunky to me and not intuitive.......maybe that home bar fixed across the bottom will solve everything.....but right now, still broken IMHO.
Don't remember the UI being horrible, bought into Sonos late 2009 and watched it improve until the mid-2016 v7 release, which is terrible only because it's still unfinished/abandoned (also, desktop and mobile controllers are diverging because the desktop development seems to have stopped).
Interesting you mention "queue defaults", because they don't currently exist, except maybe in a Sonos blog post. Think about it - as you navigate through browsing down to the album/playlist/etc you want to play, the default play action switches from "ephemeral queue - default is replace and play" to "persistent queue - default is to insert regardless of whether it makes sense in the current playing/paused/expired queue context". We have all learned how to navigate the app, and how to understand whether a given play action does what you intuitively expect, or just random crazy behaviour that has to be learned. This is why I have such an issue with the Sonos UI - not the intended design (which is fine), but the reality of the unfinished software they have spent the last 15 months shipping.
Trust me, when 5.0 was launched, the current "beautiful" design was trashed as bad, if not worse, than the current 8.0. It was bedlam across the two forums that existed at the time. There were even bans due to the hyperbolic reaction. Now that horrible UI is the epitome of perfection. Of course the naysayers who were saying the same nays back then will claim it was they who forced changes that made the 5.0 interface the perfection it became, but in truth they were posting the same "LET US REVERT!!", "I WILL NEVER LIKE THIS INTERFACE!!!", "BURN IT DOWN!!", "YOU CAN'T FIX THIS. IT IS HORRIBLE!!", "BRING BACK THE OLD ONE!!! IT WAS PERFECT!!" as today, and it was the moderates who understood that adapting muscle memory and a few tweaks (major tweaks, but still tweaks) were all it needed. I suggest the same is true today.
As to the queue stuff, you are preaching to the choir.
As to the queue stuff, you are preaching to the choir.
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