Why am I now being forced to create and link a Sonos account to the controller just to be able to add speakers to the system? There is absolutely no reason why this needs to happen.
Poor form Sonos. This should be an optional step. As such, I will no longer be buying any more devices.
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I have several PLAY:1s, a PLAY:5 and a CONNECT:AMP and I have been happy with them. I only use them to play music from my computer (no online services). They have been working fine for years. The software and firmware updates fine. I decided to buy a couple more PLAY:1s when they announced the PLAY:ONE because I worried Sonos would retire the microphone free model and I refuse to volunteer for corporate surveillance.
I tried to add the new PLAY:1s and now Sonos is forcing me to sign up anyway. An online account was not a stated requirement when I bought the speakers. Apple doesn't require an online account to use an iPad. Sony doesn't require an online account to play Playstation. Why does Sonos?
I contacted Sonos support and asked them if they would buy all of my speakers back. They chose not to reply. Today I got a popup in the phone app that if I don't register soon I won't be able to use the system all all. Not even the previously setup and working speakers. I am rightly angry. Is there a lawyer in the house?
I tried to add the new PLAY:1s and now Sonos is forcing me to sign up anyway. An online account was not a stated requirement when I bought the speakers. Apple doesn't require an online account to use an iPad. Sony doesn't require an online account to play Playstation. Why does Sonos?
I contacted Sonos support and asked them if they would buy all of my speakers back. They chose not to reply. Today I got a popup in the phone app that if I don't register soon I won't be able to use the system all all. Not even the previously setup and working speakers. I am rightly angry. Is there a lawyer in the house?
There is a hardwired button on the Sonos One to inhibit the use of the microphone for those concerned about corporate listening in. I'm not sure what you use your ipad for but to add any app to make it useful you need to sign up to the apple itunes store. Unfortunately that is the way of the world. Sonos does this process to ensure all the kit is on the same version otherwise the system will not perform as intended. You can always sign up with a 60minute email address and once all the kit has been updated to the same current version i believe you can remove any access to the internet for your Sonos system.
stopbreakingthings,
Sonos system requirements are stated here:
Sonos System Requirements
And here are the stated terms and conditions for adding products to an existing Sonos system:
https://support.sonos.com/s/article/1006?language=en_US
Sonos do clearly state what their requirements are before you buy their products. It’s not even what I would call 'small print'.
I don’t see what the difficulty is in creating a (free) standalone email account just for this purpose and register your products under a pseudo-name if you are that concerned with your own privacy and identity issues. It must be quite simple to do that?
I haven’t yet reached the paranoid stage, but I like to think I disclose 'just enough' to be 'sensible' about my online presence for the many benefits it can provide.
Sonos system requirements are stated here:
Sonos System Requirements
And here are the stated terms and conditions for adding products to an existing Sonos system:
https://support.sonos.com/s/article/1006?language=en_US
Sonos do clearly state what their requirements are before you buy their products. It’s not even what I would call 'small print'.
I don’t see what the difficulty is in creating a (free) standalone email account just for this purpose and register your products under a pseudo-name if you are that concerned with your own privacy and identity issues. It must be quite simple to do that?
I haven’t yet reached the paranoid stage, but I like to think I disclose 'just enough' to be 'sensible' about my online presence for the many benefits it can provide.
Kind of like bs this whole account required stuff.
1: This wasn' t required when i bought my setup.
2: if not accepting it makes the services unusable, that's ok for something like free mail. NOT acceptable for a system which costs more than 2k. As a matter of fact, this is really really unacceptable!
3: If it really was anonymous, they wouldn't require you to register an account. These days, there is no such thing as anonymous data.
And I am kinda pretty mad for these changes. In fact, I'm warning everybody against buying Sonos gear.
This isn't paranoid, Just really unnecessary
1: This wasn' t required when i bought my setup.
2: if not accepting it makes the services unusable, that's ok for something like free mail. NOT acceptable for a system which costs more than 2k. As a matter of fact, this is really really unacceptable!
3: If it really was anonymous, they wouldn't require you to register an account. These days, there is no such thing as anonymous data.
And I am kinda pretty mad for these changes. In fact, I'm warning everybody against buying Sonos gear.
This isn't paranoid, Just really unnecessary
I've been using my Sonos system (with multiple components) happily for 5 years, and I am watching this with interest.
To borrow the phrase used above ... Yes I am willing to cut off my nose to spite my face - on principle - and I am prepared to abandon Sonos entirely if I ever lose control of my system due to some 'hereafter essential' connection with any online "service" which I do not want (Alexa, Spotify .... or what else.)
I'm already concerned, like muwu above, at the direction this seems to be heading.
And I am kinda pretty mad for these changes. In fact, I'm warning everybody against buying Sonos gear.
This isn't paranoid, Just really unnecessary
That's exactly how I feel.
Colin P.
To borrow the phrase used above ... Yes I am willing to cut off my nose to spite my face - on principle - and I am prepared to abandon Sonos entirely if I ever lose control of my system due to some 'hereafter essential' connection with any online "service" which I do not want (Alexa, Spotify .... or what else.)
I'm already concerned, like muwu above, at the direction this seems to be heading.
And I am kinda pretty mad for these changes. In fact, I'm warning everybody against buying Sonos gear.
This isn't paranoid, Just really unnecessary
That's exactly how I feel.
Colin P.
An account was required back in 2013, when I bought my first Sonos product, and has been down to the present day. Nothing new and, therefore, nothing particularly remarkable.
1) You have always been required to register to a Sonos account.
2) The reason you need to specify the account when adding new devices is for your security, due to Sonos being more open to the internet.
3) There are no "essential connections" to any service. Alexa, Spotify, etc. are completely voluntary, and you have to add them yourself, they are not defaults.
4) You can turn off the majority of data collection (Sonos does need some for diagnostics) by following these directions:
Sonos for iOS or Android:
From the Sonos music menu, tap Settings.
Tap Advanced Settings.
Tap Usage Data then Turn off Usage Data Sharing.
Sonos for PC/Mac:
From the menu bar at the top of your screen click Sonos then Preferences.
On the left side of the window, click Advanced.
Click Improve Sonos.
Check the box that reads Turn usage data sharing off.
2) The reason you need to specify the account when adding new devices is for your security, due to Sonos being more open to the internet.
3) There are no "essential connections" to any service. Alexa, Spotify, etc. are completely voluntary, and you have to add them yourself, they are not defaults.
4) You can turn off the majority of data collection (Sonos does need some for diagnostics) by following these directions:
Sonos for iOS or Android:
From the Sonos music menu, tap Settings.
Tap Advanced Settings.
Tap Usage Data then Turn off Usage Data Sharing.
Sonos for PC/Mac:
From the menu bar at the top of your screen click Sonos then Preferences.
On the left side of the window, click Advanced.
Click Improve Sonos.
Check the box that reads Turn usage data sharing off.
Thank you for your reply jgatie, and I trust you'll know that my annoyance on this theme isn't with you, it's with Sonos.
(....)
4) You can turn off the majority of data collection (Sonos does need some for diagnostics) (....)
(....)
I don't want to turn off just "the majority" of any data that Sonos might collect, and unless and until my Sonos system goes faulty, there is no reason - or there should be no reason - for Sonos to retrieve any so-called diagnostic data from my system.
Yes, if I am fully informed about what that data comprises then I am very likely to give my consent to some of it, but my default response to this option is 'No', and I should be given an absolute yes/no choice.
Can you or anyone outside of Sonos define what that 'diagnostic data' is?
(Of course that's a rhetorical question because I don't expect you actually to know the answer jgatie.)
Does Sonos tell anyone what information they glean from our use of our systems?
I do not presume that Sonos will ever use the data from my system in any sinister or bad way. I stand on the principle that 'privacy' is not divisible or conditional. If we can't control our personal privacy 100% then we don't have privacy at all.
If I want to grant visibility of any aspect of my life to anyone - however trivial that visibility might seem to some people - then I should be invited to negotiate on the details. It's a blindingly simple concept, yet we've been slowly 'persuaded' that real 'privacy' is impossible or that it's somehow beyond our reach.
In an earlier era I had no reason at all to mistrust Microsoft. Now that trust has totally evaporated.
My trust in Sonos hasn't gone completely yet, but it's fading for sure.
Colin P.
(....)
4) You can turn off the majority of data collection (Sonos does need some for diagnostics) (....)
(....)
I don't want to turn off just "the majority" of any data that Sonos might collect, and unless and until my Sonos system goes faulty, there is no reason - or there should be no reason - for Sonos to retrieve any so-called diagnostic data from my system.
Yes, if I am fully informed about what that data comprises then I am very likely to give my consent to some of it, but my default response to this option is 'No', and I should be given an absolute yes/no choice.
Can you or anyone outside of Sonos define what that 'diagnostic data' is?
(Of course that's a rhetorical question because I don't expect you actually to know the answer jgatie.)
Does Sonos tell anyone what information they glean from our use of our systems?
I do not presume that Sonos will ever use the data from my system in any sinister or bad way. I stand on the principle that 'privacy' is not divisible or conditional. If we can't control our personal privacy 100% then we don't have privacy at all.
If I want to grant visibility of any aspect of my life to anyone - however trivial that visibility might seem to some people - then I should be invited to negotiate on the details. It's a blindingly simple concept, yet we've been slowly 'persuaded' that real 'privacy' is impossible or that it's somehow beyond our reach.
In an earlier era I had no reason at all to mistrust Microsoft. Now that trust has totally evaporated.
My trust in Sonos hasn't gone completely yet, but it's fading for sure.
Colin P.
Yes, Sonos tells everyone what information they glean from our systems. So, no need for the rhetorical, I can (as can anyone) read the answers you seek right in Sonos' very detailed Privacy Policy:
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy
Functional data (cannot opt out)
Additional Usage Data (can opt out)
There is also Audio Data like Trueplay and Alexa commands, but they are not stored, only processed. Both are also voluntary.
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy
Functional data (cannot opt out)
Registration data:
This data includes your email address, location, language preference, Product serial number, IP address, and Sonos account login information (as described above).
System data:
This data includes things like product type, controller device type, operating system of controller, software version information, content source (audio line in), signal input (for example, whether your TV outputs a specific audio signal such as Dolby to your Sonos system), information about wifi antennas, audio settings (such as equalization or stereo pair), Product orientation, room names you have assigned to your Sonos Product, whether your product has been tuned using Sonos Trueplay technology, and error information.
Additional Usage Data (can opt out)
Performance Information:
This includes things like temperature of your Product, Wi-Fi information such as signal strength, what music services you have connected to your Sonos system (including, for some services, your login username – but not password – for such service), information about how often you use the Sonos app versus another control mechanism, flow of interactions within the Sonos app, how often you use the physical controls on the unit, and location data when the Sonos app is in use, and duration of Sonos Product use.
Activity Information:
This includes duration of music service use, Product or room grouping information; command information such as play, pause, change volume, or skip tracks; information about track, playlist, or station container data; and Sonos playlist or Sonos favorites information; each correlated to individual Sonos Products.
There is also Audio Data like Trueplay and Alexa commands, but they are not stored, only processed. Both are also voluntary.
Audio Data
Sonos is not continuously recording sound in your home. There are two times when we will record sound from within your home: (1) when you enable voice control technology on a voice enabled Sonos Product; and (2) when you utilize our innovative Trueplay room tuning technology.
Voice control. Voice control works by your voice enabled Sonos Product “listening” for a specific wake word. Please note that not all Sonos Products are voice enabled. At the most detailed level, this means that the voice enabled Sonos Product buffers and re-records locally, without transmitting or storing any information, until it detects the word or phrase that triggers the device to begin actively recording. If the Product does not detect the wake word, it continues to record over itself in a never ending loop lasting just a few seconds. This is all done locally on your Product and is not sent to Sonos or any third party. If a wake word is detected, the Product begins recording. In other words, it does not record or retain any audio data, or begin to transmit any data until it is “woken up.” You are notified that it is recording by a visual indicator such as a light on the Product. The Product will record until you are finished with your voice command. The actual recording of your voice command is then sent to the voice partner you have authorized to receive such recording (for example, Amazon). Sonos does not retain a copy of your voice recording. Concurrent with the voice recording, your Product will collect data (for example, decibel level at each frequency) about the ambient noise in the room. It is not possible to extract any speech from this type of data. We collect this data to help us improve our speech recognition technology. For example, if you are trying to state a voice command while music is playing, Sonos may improve the technology by lowering the music so that your voice command can be properly understood.
Trueplay room tuning. Our innovative Trueplay speaker tuning technology analyses room size, layout, décor, speaker placement, and any other acoustic factors that can impact sound quality. Then it perfectly adjusts how your Sonos Product produces sound. In order to do this, a user goes through an interactive process (watch the video here) that gathers certain data about your room including information about background noise levels (for example decibel level at each frequency). This information is used to help make sure that the tuning gives you the best outcome possible. For example, if your dog barks during the Trueplay testing, the Product knows to ignore the background noise of a barking dog during the testing.
Creating a Sonos account and linking your system to protects your system and data with a username and password, linked through an email verification step. This is designed to facilitate seamless integration with cloud services that we use like Amazon Alexa, Spotify, and Deezer. Additionally, it has been necessary to create a Sonos account in the past in order to utilize cloud services such as Amazon Alexa or Spotify Direct Control when those features were introduced. We've also required creating a Sonos account when adding a new device to your system or registering a new system, as of last year.
At this point, we felt it was a reasonable precaution that all Sonos customers should take. The idea is to make sure that every Sonos user is ready to go when if they ever wanted to use one of these (and/or other future) services.
If you are currently opted-out of marketing communications, you will remain opted-out after creating your account and we will never sell your information to third parties. Ever.
Have any specific questions about our privacy policy or how we use your data? Check out our privacy policy for a full list of information we gather, and how that information is used. (jgatie did a great job giving the cliff notes.) There are some great answers to many of your questions here on the FAQ of the Privacy Policy here.
Any other questions, please feel free to reach out to our team and we'll be happy to chat.
At this point, we felt it was a reasonable precaution that all Sonos customers should take. The idea is to make sure that every Sonos user is ready to go when if they ever wanted to use one of these (and/or other future) services.
If you are currently opted-out of marketing communications, you will remain opted-out after creating your account and we will never sell your information to third parties. Ever.
Have any specific questions about our privacy policy or how we use your data? Check out our privacy policy for a full list of information we gather, and how that information is used. (jgatie did a great job giving the cliff notes.) There are some great answers to many of your questions here on the FAQ of the Privacy Policy here.
Any other questions, please feel free to reach out to our team and we'll be happy to chat.
[snip] (....)
Thank you jgatie for your impressively long reply, although really your reminder about the policies and a link to them would have been plenty ... but yes, you've made your point strongly enough.
TL;DR
I can say with 100% certainty that I had already read every word of that privacy policy (you may guess that I make a point of reading privacy policies) but I can say with equal certainty that I had rapidly forgotten most of the specifics.
The major point that had stuck in my memory (and which I think about each time I re-arrange my Play 3s or switch the audio inputs on my Sonos Connect) was that we cannot opt-out of feeding back to Sonos our System Data plus certain aspects of how our network components are connected.
Yes, to many folks these may be minor niggling points, but to Sonos Users like me (and I'm clearly not alone) - especially to those of us with a technical background who strive for maximum security on our home networks - they're not insignificant points.
As Sonos Users we've always known there would be - beyond our control - certain open (Sonos) network ports (although they sit safely behind our NAT routers) and some types of (Sonos) data flow on our networks. These networking details can be easily tolerated as long as we enjoy the trust and good-will of Sonos as a system designer/provider.
However, this trust is fragile (IMO) and it has been dented by Sonos's decision to make our use of our own, long established, perfectly functional hardware conditional upon us "signing in" unnecessarily (IMO) to an 'account'.
This retort is already too long. I'll be happy to say no more on this.
Pax.
Colin P.
(....)
(....)
Thank you Keith for your reassurances. I'll try to avoid unwarranted worries, but I admit I'm still simmering a little.
Yes ... Touché !
Colin P.
Once again, your Sonos units have always been registered to an account. You could not have set up Sonos without one. The only change is that you must now enter that account info when you connect a new device. THIS IS FOR YOUR PROTECTION!!! It has nothing to do with Sonos collecting data, and everything to do with Sonos preventing someone from connecting to your system from the outside. .
Hi,
As mentioned in the thread before this is "poor form" by Sonos. I have no intention of buying or using any online services, so preparing for that is just a pain. Opening up for Alexa and other voice command services is just one huge security risk, which I absolutely do not want.
I expect my system to work offline and also to continue functioning in the future, regardless of whether Sonos changes their services, services become temporarily unavailable or Sonos goes bankrupt.
I am NOT, I repeat: NOT, interested in the tie in that Sonos is now doing.
I will not be purchasing any more Sonos products and I will continue to dissuade any potential buyers I come across to warn them that this tie in will lock them in and there is a big risk that their equipment will become unusable in the future.
There are countless examples of services that have been discontinued by their companies willingly or through bankrupcy that make the equipment unusable. This is NOT HOW YOU CREATE LOYAL CUSTOMERS.
As mentioned in the thread before this is "poor form" by Sonos. I have no intention of buying or using any online services, so preparing for that is just a pain. Opening up for Alexa and other voice command services is just one huge security risk, which I absolutely do not want.
I expect my system to work offline and also to continue functioning in the future, regardless of whether Sonos changes their services, services become temporarily unavailable or Sonos goes bankrupt.
I am NOT, I repeat: NOT, interested in the tie in that Sonos is now doing.
I will not be purchasing any more Sonos products and I will continue to dissuade any potential buyers I come across to warn them that this tie in will lock them in and there is a big risk that their equipment will become unusable in the future.
There are countless examples of services that have been discontinued by their companies willingly or through bankrupcy that make the equipment unusable. This is NOT HOW YOU CREATE LOYAL CUSTOMERS.
As mentioned in the thread before this is "poor form" by Sonos. I have no intention of buying or using any online services, so preparing for that is just a pain. Opening up for Alexa and other voice command services is just one huge security risk, which I absolutely do not want.
It's understandable that you don't want to use online services and Alexa. I respect those who don't want to do that for security reasons. However, as mentioned already, asking for an account signin when you add a new speaker is for security reasons. The account itself is needed for onlines services yes, but that is not why the account is asked for when adding a speaker.
I expect my system to work offline and also to continue functioning in the future, regardless of whether Sonos changes their services, services become temporarily unavailable or Sonos goes bankrupt.
And that is mostly true. You do not have to upgrade and continue functioning as you are. However, Sonos doesn't support previous releases of their free software and doesn't allow you add new speakers without first upgrading to the current version.
(I don't think bankruptcy should be much of a concern. Sonos has enough market coverage that they surely would be bought out before bankruptcy)
I am NOT, I repeat: NOT, interested in the tie in that Sonos is now doing.
I will not be purchasing any more Sonos products and I will continue to dissuade any potential buyers I come across to warn them that this tie in will lock them in and there is a big risk that their equipment will become unusable in the future.
I get that you don't like how Sonos operates and your obviously free to dissuade whoever you want. I'm not seeing how Sonos locks in their customers. By asking you to setup an account? There are no contracts to sign, no requirement to make future purchases, and you can stop using or sell your speakers at any time.
As far as unusable in the future, there has been one Sonos device that is now unusable on the current version, and it had a rather long life. If you assume the same happens for all the other units, yes there is a risk that your speaker will be unusable 10+ year from now or greater. But it is networked computer equipment that comes with free software. Should there really expectation that you'll be able to pass the speakers down to generations to come?
There are countless examples of services that have been discontinued by their companies willingly or through bankrupcy that make the equipment unusable. This is NOT HOW YOU CREATE LOYAL CUSTOMERS.
Yes, there are. Which is why I think it's a good idea to avoid some of Sonos competitors that have yet to establish on strong track record, or lack the backing of a large company...at least without understanding the risk you're taking.
As far as creating loyal customers, it's pretty clear that Sonos has a ton of loyal customers given how long they've been in business, how many millions they've sold to, and how many of their customers are repeat customers. Sure, they won't continue to appeal to the customers that want nothing to change, no services, no accounts, nothing. However, I can't imagine they would stay in business if they did not change and grow.
Interesting debate in this topic. I just asked about the future of the account for another reason but this alone is a good reason to stop buying and using Sonos players. Do Sonos players actually stop working when they can’t reach the Sonos servers? And is it impossible to change your setup in this case? That would be a real dealbreaker...
No, they don't stop working if they can't reach the Sonos servers. However, they do need to hit the Sonos server when they're being set up for the first time. Once that's occurred, you can disconnect the outside world, and use them locally. It's part and parcel of buying an internet enabled speaker system.
When I moved recently, I didn't have outside internet service for several weeks in my home, yet my Sonos devices continued to play without issue from my NAS.
When I moved recently, I didn't have outside internet service for several weeks in my home, yet my Sonos devices continued to play without issue from my NAS.
If I was going to operate mine offline for a long time I think I'd redirect the Sonos NTP queries to a local NTP server just to keep the system clocks happy. I don't see anything indication peer-to-peer clock sync without the external NTP server in the data we still have access to.
Well, some - unlike others - have a offline wifi (for whatever reasons). Try connecting a new SONOS component there.. it simply does not work. Drives me crazy to jepardize my network just to connect a speaker. Next thing will be "cables" requiring a account just to power a lamp? WTF?
Yes, that's what I thought until recently. When I rebooted a couple of devices recently after making a couple of changes, they wouldn't work at all until I allowed them access to the internet, when they burst into life.
Many folks have been asking for increased security on their Sonos system. The login-verification when making certain system-level changes (eg adding devices) is Sonos's way of starting to do this.
This same login is used to connect with the Sonos Cloud API, and as more third party devices/apps start using that, they too will require this account login. It is a secure way to verify users and match them to their systems.
This same login is used to connect with the Sonos Cloud API, and as more third party devices/apps start using that, they too will require this account login. It is a secure way to verify users and match them to their systems.
To the OP... do like many do and create an account called bingobingo@gmail.com use that to register everything, fill out random info for required fields and ignore the rest. For added secutiry use a vpn to another country to create the account... your mobile app auto logs you on so you’ll never be affected by it. Play the system. Give the least you can. The Reason nearly everything is account based these days is because we are all being tracked and all our online and mobile travels are are being collected and combined in huge big data cross referencing marketing databases. I work in the industry it’s scary. GDPR makes you feel safe however you can be identified simply from where your mobile phone rests at night. Rather than identify you by GDP inclusive data-points~ I’ll give you a number 007 . Totally compliant.
For me it really isn't the information, but what if this company goes belly up, never say it won't, but if it does, and you are now tied to an internet account in order to setup or re-setup your devices that could be a big issue for your speakers.
This was something that happened with iRule home controller, you had to use their services in order to use the software. Well now the company is going under and stopping so you will not be able to do any updates etc to the software. I fear some hear are thinking the same thing.
This was something that happened with iRule home controller, you had to use their services in order to use the software. Well now the company is going under and stopping so you will not be able to do any updates etc to the software. I fear some hear are thinking the same thing.
No, the vast majority are concerned with data harvesting and privacy, two items for which Sonos has clearly stated their policy, and these folks refuse to believe it.
I am more concerned with not being able to access or re-setup my system if I do not have access to the internet or if they decide to call it a day. That is one reason why I am not investing in more smart speakers. I would rather be tied to software playing my music, than to hardware and software. If a company stops making the software, I can still use my hardware with something else, but with Sonos, I am tied to the hardware and software. While I enjoy their services, and still really enjoy their products, I won't be expanding my system anytime soon, because this has me worried.
I don't really care about the harvesting of data all to much. However I do find it kind of weird on why they would care what stations, songs, services, etc I am using and keep track of the times I am using them. I would be curious as to why they would need that level of granularity. Are there plans to sell this information?
I don't really care about the harvesting of data all to much. However I do find it kind of weird on why they would care what stations, songs, services, etc I am using and keep track of the times I am using them. I would be curious as to why they would need that level of granularity. Are there plans to sell this information?
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