Sonos Playlist Size Limits

Should I try Sonos support?  Would they be of help?

Well, they would have access to diagnostics, whereas the rest of us have to work off of assumptions and mental models. They likely would see any error messages, if there are any being generated. 

In my mind, it’s also a “how good is the person I’m talking to in understanding the issue”, as I suspect there are variations in the CS reps understanding of what they are looking at. Sure, there are those who probably don’t have the same deeper understanding of what’s going on as others. But I’d hope they have the ability to hand your call off to someone who has a better understanding, rather than sticking to the scripted response that I’d assume they have. This is not a slam against the CSRs, by the way, I think they do a great job, but there’s always a constant churn, and a need for deeper understanding. You’re not very likely to end up talking to a programmer/expert in any case. At least I hope not. I certainly had a policy that my engineers did not read the forums I ran for my customers….they’d be distracted from what was important to deal with a “one-off” situation, which wasn’t beneficial for the greater good. 

I think I’ve decided that I’m a victim of the 15 second load rule, a limitation that baffles me from a top-notch product like Sonos.  I'm loading into my PC app from a solid state drive, so I have no idea why it would even take that long, but nonetheless, any idea why so low a threshold for a timeout?  And are they planning a fix for this?

I have also discovered that I can create the entire playlist by adding two smaller playlists together and then saving it as a Queue in Sonos Playlists.  It’s sad that I need a workaround, but all 3,400 songs load in a couple of seconds, what I would have expected to load externally.

Also, there’s a small limit of Queues that can be saved as a Sonos Playlist, like 4.  I was sent an error message to delete one of the current Queues, but there’s no option to delete.  How do I remove the Queues that I don't want?  And why is this threshold of four so low??

Thanks again….

What did Sonos support say?

There are several issues that could potentially be an issue, it’s hard to tell from anecdotal evidence, there would be much more in the actual log files that Sonos has access to when you submit a diagnostic.

The process occurs on Sonos hardware, and not on your controller on the PC, so any network disruption might be an issue. This could be simple wifi interference , or duplicate IP address issues while the Sonos system is scanning the data wherever you have it loaded. 

Additionally, in some cases Sonos is intolerant of specific non standard characters in the song data, and will stop the process if it runs in to one of those characters. They continue to ‘fix’ this issue, but it seems to pop up somewhat frequently. I think the most recent issue is on the Beam Gen 2 while precessing the data, but I wouldn’t swear to that, either as the actual problem still existing, or whether it’s still an issue on one or more than one device. Again, Sonos support would likely be able to read the data in the diagnostics and give better feedback. 

I have zero insight into what Sonos has on their roadmap for ‘fixing’ or ‘upgrading’. They don’t release that sort of data to the unwashed masses until it goes live, and even then, they do an extremely poor job of telling us what has been fixed in their ‘release notes’, most often we get the incredibly lazy ‘bug fixes’ without any derails. 

Are you using playlists, or Favorites? If I recall, there’s a limit to number of Favorites, but not to actual playlists, although that could be a false memory, and am happy to be corrected by someone with more knowledge. On my screen, there’s an ‘edit’ button on the top right where I can delete those made in error. 

I'm waiting on a call-back from Sonos, but your points are good ones.  They gave me a case number and I'm waiting. 

What's puzzling me is that my system is all hardwired according to my Sonos system information. I’ve had the non-standard character issue and resolved those, so I know what you mean.  If they have a 15 second limit, then the process must be expected to move a lot faster than it does. 

I'm using playlists not favorites.  I will attempt to embed the display screen I get when I try to save a new Queue.  No delete button.  And a limit, apparently of 4 lists.  They’re all about 200kb each.

Thanks so much.

WSC

Hardwired doesn’t preclude a duplicate IP address, or other networking issues, but Sonos would, I hope, be able to see something in the data. 

The “edit” button isn’t on the save screen, it’s on the “select” screen. 

What device are you using as a controller?

This is the only screen i can find related to Queues.  This screen is off the PC version of the Sonos app.  Ah, found the other place: it’s under Sonos Playlists.  Thanks!

Why am I limited to storing only 4 small sized files (playlists) here?  Is this another sign of a problem here?

No, that’s not really where playlists should exist. I expect there’s some confusion in the difference between favorites, and playlists.  There’s a limited amount of space in the controller for favorites, but much more for playlists. 

I don’t have a PC client handy, but on the iOS client which I do, playlists exist under the “star” icon, not the “musical note” icon. That page has Recently Played, and Playlists, of which I think there can be many. The last thing on that page is stations that you can add. And of course, the “edit” function is on that page, so that you can modify or delete previous entries.

As a note, the desktop clients aren’t really all the best for doing a lot of this stuff, they’ve been relegated to fairly static use, where all the development is on the mobile (Android/iOS) clients. You can’t even do basic system maintenance like adding a player, etc, on the desktop clients, you must use a mobile client. 

Well, that’s my point.  The queue list I stored went to the Sonos Playlists “location”, not the favorites.  And my limit seems to be four playlists.  I got the “out of space” error message when I tried to add a fifth to the Sonos Playlists via the queue screen I sent you, above.  I'm guessing this is not normal; there’s an issue with the system, right?

Yes, the younger tend to love their phones and do everything on them.  I have 32” PC monitor which is far easier to work from, especially for creating my playlists, etc.  I have the iOS client (iPhone 11) which I use to control my system and my TV, but creation here is a lot harder, at least for me.  It is surprising that the desktop and mobile don’t better mirror each other, but oh well.

Thanks again.

I also prefer the desktop controller. You should check Help → Error Log… . Sometimes there is something useful here.

I wanted to follow up on what has ultimately transpired.  I also have a couple of related questions.

I contacted Sonos’ support as you all suggested.  After a bit of a winding road that took a couple of hours to no resolution, I ended up with escalated support.  In less than 30 minutes, the technician announced that all three of my amps had failed.  I don’t have the model numbers, but I bought them in mid-2018.

The memory on each was going bad and by his estimate only about 1/3 of it was still “available”.  He also told me that the amps themselves would eventually completely give out.  I needed to replace them.  To their great credit, they comped me three new amps.  (They ended up being refurbished ones.)  I had them installed a couple of days ago and the playlist problem disappeared.  I can load my 3,200-song list in under 3 seconds. 

I had also been experiencing episodes where my music would simply stop playing (no sound) for 10 – 20 seconds, an issue that my local support provider was investigating.  We’ll see if this recurs.  So far, so good. 

The amps (UPC code 0878269007166 and the SKU # AmpG1US2Blk) seem much faster and have twice the power of the old ones.  I'm not sure if the faster is a result of improvements to the amp or just that they’re working properly.  (Thoughts here anyone?)  

As I said, it was outstanding for Sonos to warranty me three new amps but the tech offered no explanation as to why they had all failed.  My local support guy I mentioned above who did the installation and addresses the various issues that crop up for time to time said that he could count on one hand the number of bad amps he’d ever seen, and most of them were related to power hits.

I have a watt box also installed which also serves as a surge protector, but the installation tech has no way to test and verify that it is still doing the job.  (They apparently can go bad as well.) To have three amps malfunction in the same way (bad memory) can’t be a coincidence unless it was a “bad batch” of amps from the factory, which seems very unlikely for a product with Sonos’ reputation.  A power spike (or dip?) seems the most likely culprit.  Do the amps need more protection?   What do you all have?

All my equipment is housed in a rack inside of a cabinet where the temperature in the rack is warm, around 99⁰.  The specs for the amps indicate an operating temperature range up to 104⁰.  I'm wondering if constant heat can be an issue here even though it’s (slightly) below spec.  Thoughts?

Since the playlists or music are stored on the amps, it’s odd that there’s no mention in the owner’s manual about how much memory an amp has.  Was that increased over the older model and how much memory is there?  How much does this increase its storage capability for playlists and the like?

I noticed that the replacement amps are refurbished.  I know the definition of “refurbish,” but any guess what that means here, since these are the current/latest models.  Why would they need to be refurbished as new as the model is?

Thanks again!

WSC3

People will return units for various reasons, not necessarily because of device failure, and these units can no longer be sold as “new”.

Since SONOS volunteered to exchange your units, I suspect that there was a known issue with a batch of serial numbers.

With respect to your equipment environment, there are a bunch of “failure clocks” running inside any piece of equipment, eventually a clock times out and the unit will fail. Some clocks run faster at elevated temperatures, some are simply the number of hours since assembly, It’s not fair, but some clocks run faster if a unit is not used. One of the most significant clocks is related to the depth and number of temperature cycles. When you power up a unit it starts at ambient and runs up to its operating temperature, then cools back to ambient when powered down. This is one cycle. Deeper cycles are more stressful. After a finite number of cycles at a depth of xx degrees, the unit will fall. Turning a unit ON and leaving it ON for weeks or months is only one cycle.

For any model there will be some “infant mortalities” that will crop up in the first few weeks, then the failure rate will plummet to near zero for a number of years then start creeping up with a different set of failures. Each unit has its own signature. Large repair depots can often tell you what is wrong if you give them only the model number because any units that fail, typically fail the same way. This doesn’t mean that they will all fail, only that those that do fail, do so in a characteristic way. It’s possible that your AMP falls in a known bin. We will never know how large this bin might be.

For me, 99°F is a little high for the ambient temperature. Perhaps you could install a small fan somewhere to circulate the air. Ideally, you should allow air to circulate through the cabinet. A small flow can make a large difference in ambient.

Buzz,

So just to summarize, do I have this right?

1. My Sonos equipment stays on all the time (except if there’s a power outage).  This is a good thing, as it reduces “cycles” which are best kept to a minimum.  This is also far more critical to amp life than the temperature issue.

2. “Infant mortalities” are very real in the PC world which I know more about.  The longer a computer lasts, the longer it lasts.  That would explain why my playlist issue has always been there.  Either the batch was bad or the failures occurred early on.  I'm guessing Sonos will never tell us that.

3. I already have a small fan in the cabinet space but realized on closer inspection that it’s no longer running.  I will have to get that repaired.  Still, when I leave both cabinet doors open, the rack temperature hovers at about 90⁰.  That still seems high.  I wonder what effect a small 4” or so fan will have on that temperature, especially over the long term and with the amp threshold at 104⁰.  Is it a problem to have the ambient temperature permanently that close to the limit?

4. What kind of power surge/power dip protection do I need?  What do you have?

Did I get these right?

Thanks again!

WSC3

There will be some temperature cycling as the AMP’s go from Standby to Operate. You cannot eliminate all cycles. There is some temperature change related to the amplifier output while playing music. While it might save some power, a punishing style of use would be to power down a piece of equipment every time you leave the room. This would maximize the number and depth of the cycles. I tend to power up a unit at first use and power down at the end of the day. Power up is also very stressful event because there is a inrush of current for certain parts. It’s sort of a race to see which events will ultimately kill the unit. It’s time consuming, but a designer could prepare a document predicting failure rates related to temperature and power cycles. This is the routine for large production runs where the manufacturer wants to control warranty costs.

I’m conservative with respect to temperature 99° is not the end of the world, but I don’t like it. Depending on where you live and the season, 99° might be the best that you can expect. I’ve seen situations where there is no chance of generating airflow into and out of a closet, but a small fan made a big difference in equipment temperature because the fan circulated air over cooler walls.

Power quality varies by building and neighborhood. Some areas I would classify as “lightning alley” and industrial duty surge suppression is warranted on all important electronics. It’s possible to install surge suppression at the home’s power entrance. Vey old multistory buildings are a risk. New or recently updated buildings are relatively safe. I’m in an urban area with duplex homes and power is relatively stable. My computer is on a UPS and I have an industrial duty suppressor for peripherals. A few times a year there will be a momentary outage and the UPS saves a lot of grief. Other than the incidental protection afforded by cheap power strips, I’m not protecting my SONOS. At one point I was living in an unstable suburban area and we had a generator. Before the generator there was a major hurricane, water was rising in the basement and the power was out. Electric pumps don’t work well without power. I was able to bail enough water to manage the situation.

Testing surge suppressors requires specialized equipment. Typically, surge suppressors fail “open”, meaning that they have lost all effectiveness. A suppressor can deal with a certain number of “events”, fewer high energy events than lower energy events. And, the quality of suppression can gradually erode after a number of events. I see some very silly surge suppressors that have a fuse for the suppressor element. Essentially the equipment is protecting the surge “protection” element because a large event will blow the fuse, disconnecting the element, and the next event will damage the equipment.

By the way “ambient” is just that, the actual box surface will likely be a higher temperature, inside components higher yet. The actual components might be rated at 80°C and as long as the ambient is below the recommendation, the internal components will be within their safe operating range.